What makes a person a saint?

[visionary]

Through Christ we have met that condition. Those who believe are covered by His blood and in His righteousness. When God looks at the faithful, He sees His Son with whom He is well pleased. Nothing is lacking in the Christian.

The Law tells me I can't perfectly forgive all my neighbors. The Gospel tells me that Christ has done that for me and I am covered by His blood. I have salvation and no one can take that away from me by telling me I have to do something for the Law. Christ fulfilled all conditions in my place.

Isn't God's goal with all this .. is to have a people who have overcome and are fulfilling the Law that is now in their hearts... to believe it is possible but also expected by God.. who has given His Holy Spirit to help accomplish this.

 

[Stravinsk]

What better way to show love to your neighbor than by forgiving him? God wants us to love our neighbors.

Trust in what happened at the cross. Don't rely on your own accomplishments because you'll always fail.

I think the point being missed is that what happened at the cross, via the resurrection does not negate the teachings of Yeshua. I'm not concerned on who is or isn't a "saint" - it's not a label I apply to anyone, nor a judgement that I feel is mine to make. Or feel I need to adopt, if some assumed authority (such as a pope or some other religious figure) makes it.

Forgiveness of the sins of others is a requirement for being forgiven. It is not an option, and it is not an "accomplishment". You know from some private conversations the depth of some resentments I had towards certain people at the other place. To the best of my ability I have forgiven them - but that doesn't mean I have forgotten nor is it about pretending anything about their character that they are not. It also doesn't mean not taking precautions - especially to the few individuals and specific individual who showed themselves to be quite mentally unstable and vicious enough to play a pretty sick mind game.

That said - forgiveness is not a "badge of honor" nor is it something that "earns" me anything. What it is though - is this - it is a slice of heaven, a great burden off my shoulders and, with regards to the person(s) involved, a peace that could not be present otherwise. It is it's own reward and a gift from God.

And when I disobey it, which I sometimes do - I suffer. This self inflicted suffering or peace through forgiveness is a reality of human experience, and it would be to my detriment to forget it through any theology of any religion that says it is not necessary, either in and of itself - or for some other goal.

 

[popsthebuilder]

You misunderstand Law and Gospel. To have a condition for salvation is not what scripture teaches us. It is all by grace, God's grace and that is accomplished because of Jesus our Savior. Through Christ, we are covered in His righteousness, so that Law condition you say needs to be taken care of is accomplished through Christ who fulfills the Law for us and covers us. I am Holy because He makes me Holy.

So you abide by the teachings of Christ? Didn't he say he didn't change or abolish the law but came to verify it? So Salvation is through grace, but the narrow path is something else? So salvation is available to us through Christ, but to accept it is to walk in the spirit wholly? It can't be partially, as the spirit is not of the flesh or the sin there of.

It seems like some claim that a sinner is a saint. That the holy are but men of there own will. I really can't begin to justify this view. Could any who are along that line of thinking please explain it, preferably with scripture not taken out of context.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[MoreCoffee]

So you abide by the teachings of Christ? Didn't he say he didn't change or abolish the law but came to verify it? So Salvation is through grace, but the narrow path is something else? So salvation is available to us through Christ, but to accept it is to walk in the spirit wholly? It can't be partially, as the spirit is not of the flesh or the sin there of.

It seems like some claim that a sinner is a saint. That the holy are but men of there own will. I really can't begin to justify this view. Could any who are along that line of thinking please explain it, preferably with scripture not taken out of context.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

The Lord said he came to fulfil the law. Fulfilling the law is not exactly the same as verifying it. When one fulfils something it is brought to its proper conclusion because all of its requirements are met and all of its promises conferred. When one verifies something one gives his/her testimony that it is true. These are distinct and different concepts.

 

[popsthebuilder]

The Lord said he came to fulfil the law. Fulfilling the law is not exactly the same as verifying it. When one fulfils something it is brought to its proper conclusion because all of its requirements are met and all of its promises conferred. When one verifies something one gives his/her testimony that it is true. These are distinct and different concepts.

Yes, maybe that was the wrong word. But he said he didn't change any law or abolish them. No where have I seen where Christ said he has done away with he law. He surly fulfilled his duty, but I can't see how that negates ours as his followers.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[visionary]

The Lord said he came to fulfil the law. Fulfilling the law is not exactly the same as verifying it. When one fulfils something it is brought to its proper conclusion because all of its requirements are met and all of its promises conferred. When one verifies something one gives his/her testimony that it is true. These are distinct and different concepts.

When I stop at the red light, I have fulfilled that law... so now everyone after me can just go on through ignoring the red light.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes, maybe that was the wrong word. But he said he didn't change any law or abolish them. No where have I seen where Christ said he has done away with he law. He surly fulfilled his duty, but I can't see how that negates ours as his followers.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

Yes, the Lord said he did not come to destroy the law or the prophets but to fulfil them. He didn't come to reform Judaism he really came to end it. Not by destroying it or removing its rules and regulations but by exposing the reality of which the laws and ceremonies were only shadows. That is why Christianity is not Judaism 2.0 and why rabbinic Judaism is not Christianity (rabbinic Judaism is a kind of reform of old covenant religion but it is a reform invented by the rabbis and not commanded by God). Christians therefore are not under the law yet Christians see in the law what is just and holy and good so we do not disregard the moral lessons of the Law of Moses because they are still morally true yet we have more than the law to guide our moral decisions now because we have the Spirit of God and the mind of Christ. ("For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Corinthians 2:16))

 

[MoreCoffee]

When I stop at the red light, I have fulfilled that law... so now everyone after me can just go on through ignoring the red light.

When you stop at a red light you obey the law but you do not fulfil it. The traffic law is far greater than one regulation about the proper action when a traffic light turns red. I am sure you knew that before you typed your post. Christ fulfils the law exhaustively. He brings all of its requirements to their proper conclusion. After him there is no more law to fulfil nobody else can come along and do what he did. It's a done deal, a finished work. When Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished"; and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. (John 19:30)

 

[popsthebuilder]

When you stop at a red light you obey the law but you do not fulfil it. The traffic law is far greater than one regulation about the proper action when a traffic light turns red. I am sure you knew that before you typed your post. Christ fulfils the law exhaustively. He brings all of its requirements to their proper conclusion. After him there is no more law to fulfil nobody else can come along and do what he did. It's a done deal, a finished work. When Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished"; and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. (John 19:30)

How does that not pertain to what he was to do? And how does it negate us needing to do anything at all; even works and direction of faith?

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[MoreCoffee]

How does that not pertain to what he was to do? And how does it negate us needing to do anything at all; even works and direction of faith?

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

I think it shows that the concepts of fulfilment and verification are distinct and different. That was the thing that I observed in a previous post addressed to you. Visionary raised the matter of traffic lights being red and one's obedience to the rule associated with it. Obeying a law does not fulfil the law in the biblical sense in which the Lord Jesus Christ referred to his mission as fulfilling the law and the prophets. Jesus obeyed the Mosaic laws about behaviour and participation in ceremonies but he fulfilled the Law of Moses by being the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. No one else ever fulfilled the Law that way and now that it is done no one else ever can. It is a once for all time fulfilment. It completes the Law and fulfils all the predictions and receives all the promises in the Law and the Prophets. That is what makes his fulfilment definitive. So what makes a person a saint is, first and foremost, union with Jesus Christ. Union and communion brings the sinner to the cross and the holy supper and baptism and leaves him/her washed white as snow unblemished and pure and ready to see God face to face. A saint - unlike Moses - is able to behold the glory of God and to see his face because a saint is in Christ. Romans chapter six explains this truth and so do many other passages of the new covenant holy scriptures.

 

[visionary]

Yes, the Lord said he did not come to destroy the law or the prophets but to fulfil them. He didn't some to reform Judaism he really came to end it. Not by destroying it or removing its rules and regulations but by exposing the reality of which the laws and ceremonies were only shadows. That is why Christianity is not Judaism 2.0 and why rabbinic Judaism is not Christianity (rabbinic Judaism is a kind of reform of old covenant religion but it is a reform invented by the rabbis and not commanded by God). Christians therefore are not under the law yet Christians see in the law what is just and holy and good so we do not disregard the moral lessons of the Law of Moses because they are still morally true yet we have more than the law to guide our moral decisions now because we have the Spirit of God and the mind of Christ. ("For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Corinthians 2:16))

Then why do you read the Bible, a Jewish book about the Jewish people, written by Jews, about their Jewish Messiah?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Then why do you read the Bible, a Jewish book about the Jewish people, written by Jews, about their Jewish Messiah?

The bible is not a Rabbinic book. I doubt that a single Pharisee rabbi or any of their successors played a role in writing it.

 

[Lamb]

We have Jewish and Hebrew history as Christians but God's intention was to come to make us "redeemed". And so He did.

 

[psalms 91]

Redeemed yes, not to throw away all that told what God expected and what He desired

 

[popsthebuilder]

I think it shows that the concepts of fulfilment and verification are distinct and different. That was the thing that I observed in a previous post addressed to you. Visionary raised the matter of traffic lights being red and one's obedience to the rule associated with it. Obeying a law does not fulfil the law in the biblical sense in which the Lord Jesus Christ referred to his mission as fulfilling the law and the prophets. Jesus obeyed the Mosaic laws about behaviour and participation in ceremonies but he fulfilled the Law of Moses by being the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. No one else ever fulfilled the Law that way and now that it is done no one else ever can. It is a once for all time fulfilment. It completes the Law and fulfils all the predictions and receives all the promises in the Law and the Prophets. That is what makes his fulfilment definitive. So what makes a person a saint is, first and foremost, union with Jesus Christ. Union and communion brings the sinner to the cross and the holy supper and baptism and leaves him/her washed white as snow unblemished and pure and ready to see God face to face. A saint - unlike Moses - is able to behold the glory of God and to see his face because a saint is in Christ. Romans chapter six explains this truth and so do many other passages of the new covenant holy scriptures.

Romans 6 (KJV) - ሮሜ
1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Romans 6 (KJV) - ሮሜ
4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Romans 6 (KJV) - ሮሜ
7: For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8: Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Romans 6 (KJV) - ሮሜ
10: For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. Romans 6 (KJV) - ሮሜ
14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Romans 6 (KJV) - ሮሜ
Romans 6 (KJV) - ሮሜ
17: But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18: Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19: I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. Romans 6 (KJV) - ሮሜ
20: For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21: What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Romans 6 (KJV) - ሮሜ
23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Coffee; I'm sorry for the long post and thank you for your reference to Romans chapter 6. I posted the chapter after reading it. Could you specify what part of th a chapters says to walk in sin because of the price paid by Christ. It seems to say the opposite to me.

Thank you, with respect. Your insights are generally quite informative.

Peace brother, with humility.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...

Coffee; I'm sorry for the long post and thank you for your reference to Romans chapter 6. I posted the chapter after reading it. Could you specify what part of th a chapters says to walk in sin because of the price paid by Christ. It seems to say the opposite to me.

Thank you, with respect. Your insights are generally quite informative.

Peace brother, with humility.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

My post referred to Romans chapter six as explaining the union of Christians with Christ. I did not say and I did not imply that one may sin as he/she pleases and still have remission of sins.

 

[Full O Beans]

So all who ploclaim Jesus is Lord are saints regardless of sin?

Yes.

 

[Stravinsk]

The bible is not a Rabbinic book. I doubt that a single Pharisee rabbi or any of their successors played a role in writing it.

The bulk of the New Testament is written by a Pharisee, and a gospel and Acts by his follower.

 

[psalms 91]

And the Old testament by Jews

 

[MoreCoffee]

The bulk of the New Testament is written by a Pharisee, and a gospel and Acts by his follower.

I think you are mistaken. A page count will show that saint Paul's letters constitute about 1/4 (25.3%) of the new testament. And any reading of saint Paul must bring one to the conclusion that he was a Christian and not a Pharisee when he wrote his letters.

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Pages 1179 to 1394 cover the four gospels. (215 pages)Pages 1395 to 1488 cover saint Paul's letters. (93 pages)
Pages 1489 to 1548 cover Hebrews and the rest. (59 pages)

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274 pages non-Pauline;
93 Pauline;
Total pages in the new testament 367.

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93/370 = 0.253406 (25.3%)

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​

With a tiny bit more than one quarter of the pages being attributable to saint Paul one can hardly call that "the bulk of the New Testament".