What makes a person a saint?

[popsthebuilder]

I AM - always, 24/7 - a sinner. Perpetually, constantly. I HAVE the "disease" of sin. I AM a "poor, miserable sinner." All the time. From conception until I enter heaven. Now.... HIS MERCY, HIS BLOOD, HIS WORK, they "cover me", they forgive me but I am the sinner.

Now, perhaps I'm improving in managing the "symptoms" of my disease. As when I have a cold, I may (with the help of LOTS of medication) lessen my coughing, my sneezing, my runny nose..... MAYBE I even can get rid of the symptoms altogether! Maybe. But I still have the disease, I still have a cold. While I think part of our "sanctification" (narrow sense) is to do just that (the Holy Spirit being our spiritual "medication" in a sense), while part of our sanctification is growing toward moral PERFECTION..... there's also a danger there. We can begin looking in the mirror..... noticing that we aren't coughing, aren't sneezing, don't seem to have a runny nose... and THINK we are well (and thus have no need for mercy, forgiveness... no need for Christ and the Cross..... I'm well). That is what Satan wishes us to think... that we are "god" and have no need for God.


Lord, have MERCY
Christ, have MERCY
Lord, have MERCY
On ME - the sinner, the poor miserable sinner.



A blessed Easter to you and yours.....


- Josiah

Of course.

As I said; the will of GOD is not our own.

If one would ever be without sin it wouldn't be their doing, but God's. One would never not need GOD, or replace GOD by following GOD's direction. Are we not to strive to be what the Christ instructed us to be? If so, how is that not contrary to God's will?

You seem to equate being without sin with Satan's want and I agree that one to proclaim such about themself within their own narrow perception is vain, arrogant, and wrong in many ways that can lead to placing ones self as a god. But to succumb wholly to the will of GOD, is not the same as misdirection, or greed, or any other thing that can be related to the opposer.

Peace


Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Full O Beans]

The cleansing blood of Jesus makes the believer a saint.

 

[popsthebuilder]

So all who ploclaim Jesus is Lord are saints regardless of sin?

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Josiah]

So all who ploclaim Jesus is Lord are saints regardless of sin?.

Well.... it's not OUR anything.... it's Christ's EVERYTHING. CHRIST is the reason we are saints. CHRIST washes us clean by His precious blood. CHRIST forgives. In CHRIST, we are saints.

Of course, we are also sinful.




.

 

[visionary]

See all these whoop dancing, claiming this, declaring that,... but are they the definition of a saint?

 

[popsthebuilder]

Well.... it's not OUR anything.... it's Christ's EVERYTHING. CHRIST is the reason we are saints. CHRIST washes us clean by His precious blood. CHRIST forgives. In CHRIST, we are saints.

Of course, we are also sinful.




.

Then who is it referring to that crusifies Christ again and again in vain continued sin? What was his blood for if not to give us a way of being that isn't slave to the wants of he flesh?

I mean, I understand that Christ is the way, and that he made salvation available to all. What I don't get is how one can claim to be saved and continue in knowing sin, when everything in scripture seems to strongly advise otherwise.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[popsthebuilder]

See all these whoop dancing, claiming this, declaring that,... but are they the definition of a saint?

What? I'm confused as to who you are referring to.


Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Josiah]

What I don't get is how one can claim to be saved and continue in knowing sin, when everything in scripture seems to strongly advise otherwise.

I don't think any Christian (or even heathen) would defend being bad as good..... sin as good. SURE, as has been stated, we are CALLED to absolute moral perfection.... to be holy in the same way and extent as God is.... to be perfect in the same way and to the same extent that God is. We are to be JUST LIKE Christ in terms of morality, love, service, etc. No one denies that (although some sure water it down!). But are we? Paul states (by divine inspiration) that no one is righteous, no, not even one. That no one does what is right, no one. He states that he (um.... yup.... we call him SAINT Paul!) is "chief of sinners." Not just A sinner, but the "chief of sinners." Is this how it SHOULD be? No, of course not..... the world has not been as it SHOULD be since Adam and Eve did their thing. It WILL be in heaven... but it ain't now. So we DO sin. And we DO repent. And Jesus DOES cover us with HIS blood, HIS righteousness, HIS mercy, HIS forgiveness. 7 times 70. It's why he came..... "Father, FORGIVE them."

Now.... this disease of sin that we ALL have.... this disease that often causes the symptoms of words and deeds and thoughts LESS that absolute moral perfection, LESS than absolute holiness, LESS than perfect love.... this disease that has these symptoms we all deplore..... that disease doesn't disappear the moment we aquire faith. If it did, no Christian would ever be less than PERFECT, less than HOLY, less that perfect lovers ... LESS than Christ. But Paul says we all are..... he calls himself the CHIEF of sinners. Sin continues - although hopefully we regret it and although it is no longer of our essence, our true self (as Paul will stress). But it IS...... we DO sin.

We CAN (and hopefully do) make process. But we will not be all we are called to be this side of heaven.

Thus we are sinners.

But we are forgiven...... washed....... by the blood of the Lamb. Thus, we stand before God as "white as snow" and forgiven.


Sinners...... saints.




.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I don't think any Christian (or even heathen) would defend being bad as good..... sin as good. SURE, as has been stated, we are CALLED to absolute moral perfection.... to be holy in the same way and extent as God is.... to be perfect in the same way and to the same extent that God is. We are to be JUST LIKE Christ in terms of morality, love, service, etc. No one denies that (although some sure water it down!). But are we? Paul states (by divine inspiration) that no one is righteous, no, not even one. That no one does what is right, no one. He states that he (um.... yup.... we call him SAINT Paul!) is "chief of sinners." Not just A sinner, but the "chief of sinners." Is this how it SHOULD be? No, of course not..... the world has not been as it SHOULD be since Adam and Eve did their thing. It WILL be in heaven... but it ain't now. So we DO sin. And we DO repent. And Jesus DOES cover us with HIS blood, HIS righteousness, HIS mercy, HIS forgiveness. 7 times 70. It's why he came..... "Father, FORGIVE them."

Now.... this disease of sin that we ALL have.... this disease that often causes the symptoms of words and deeds and thoughts LESS that absolute moral perfection, LESS than absolute holiness, LESS than perfect love.... this disease that has these symptoms we all deplore..... that disease doesn't disappear the moment we aquire faith. If it did, no Christian would ever be less than PERFECT, less than HOLY, less that perfect lovers ... LESS than Christ. But Paul says we all are..... he calls himself the CHIEF of sinners. Sin continues - although hopefully we regret it and although it is no longer of our essence, our true self (as Paul will stress). But it IS...... we DO sin.

We CAN (and hopefully do) make process. But we will not be all we are called to be this side of heaven.

Thus we are sinners.

But we are forgiven...... washed....... by the blood of the Lamb. Thus, we stand before God as "white as snow" and forgiven.


Sinners...... saints.




.

So you think that all, regardless of actions are seen without flaw in the eye of God as long as they accept that Christ was crucified, entombed, and on the third day was resurrected? Isn't that specifically spoken against by Christ himself? something about Christ not knowing them though they proclaimed his name with their mouths.

This is getting confusing, or maybe I'm getting tired.

Peace.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Lamb]

So you think that all, regardless of actions are seen without flaw in the eye of God as long as they accept that Christ was crucified, entombed, and on the third day was resurrected? Isn't that specifically spoken against by Christ himself? something about Christ not knowing them though they proclaimed his name with their mouths.

This is getting confusing, or maybe I'm getting tired.

Peace.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

When Christ died on the cross, ALL your sins were there with him. That's difficult to perceive but so true! What sin would you think hasn't been forgiven?

We still sin on earth and the Holy Spirit uses the Law to accuse us of that sin and in the same way He uses Gospel to turn us to Him in repentance. We can confess our sins and know that we have forgiveness because, back to the cross we go.

 

[popsthebuilder]

When Christ died on the cross, ALL your sins were there with him. That's difficult to perceive but so true! What sin would you think hasn't been forgiven?

We still sin on earth and the Holy Spirit uses the Law to accuse us of that sin and in the same way He uses Gospel to turn us to Him in repentance. We can confess our sins and know that we have forgiveness because, back to the cross we go.

Surely repentance and forgiveness are available to all, but those who haven't repented and continue in sin are not synonymous with saints to me. That's all.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Lamb]

Surely repentance and forgiveness are available to all, but those who haven't repented and continue in sin are not synonymous with saints to me. That's all.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

Those who continue in sin could be throwing away their faith but that's not an automatic out since we cannot see the heart of man and know whether God is working repentance in him.

 

[Stravinsk]

So you think that all, regardless of actions are seen without flaw in the eye of God as long as they accept that Christ was crucified, entombed, and on the third day was resurrected? Isn't that specifically spoken against by Christ himself? something about Christ not knowing them though they proclaimed his name with their mouths.

This is getting confusing, or maybe I'm getting tired.

Peace.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

I know it wasn't addressed to me, but if the theology that people who, by mere act of "faith only" or "faith alone" are "without flaw in the eyes of God" - then it must be something of an offense to them to read the critical words of Yeshua as directed to believers in the book of Revelation. If they are "without flaw" then Yeshua has no business criticizing some of their actions/beliefs.

The thing spoken of (grace by faith alone) , which Lutherans hold (don't know about Catholics or other denominations) is unfortunately at odds with Yeshua's teachings. For one thing, it is clear that forgiveness is required from the believer towards others who have wronged him or her. Not only is it part of the Lord's prayer but it is an explicit teaching of Yeshua. You don't forgive - you don't get to be forgiven - whether you believe in the sacrifice and resurrection of Yeshua or not.

 

[Lamb]

I know it wasn't addressed to me, but if the theology that people who, by mere act of "faith only" or "faith alone" are "without flaw in the eyes of God" - then it must be something of an offense to them to read the critical words of Yeshua as directed to believers in the book of Revelation. If they are "without flaw" then Yeshua has no business criticizing some of their actions/beliefs.

The thing spoken of (grace by faith alone) , which Lutherans hold (don't know about Catholics or other denominations) is unfortunately at odds with Yeshua's teachings. For one thing, it is clear that forgiveness is required from the believer towards others who have wronged him or her. Not only is it part of the Lord's prayer but it is an explicit teaching of Yeshua. You don't forgive - you don't get to be forgiven - whether you believe in the sacrifice and resurrection of Yeshua or not.

You misunderstand Law and Gospel. To have a condition for salvation is not what scripture teaches us. It is all by grace, God's grace and that is accomplished because of Jesus our Savior. Through Christ, we are covered in His righteousness, so that Law condition you say needs to be taken care of is accomplished through Christ who fulfills the Law for us and covers us. I am Holy because He makes me Holy.

 

[Stravinsk]

You misunderstand Law and Gospel. To have a condition for salvation is not what scripture teaches us. It is all by grace, God's grace and that is accomplished because of Jesus our Savior. Through Christ, we are covered in His righteousness, so that Law condition you say needs to be taken care of is accomplished through Christ who fulfills the Law for us and covers us. I am Holy because He makes me Holy.

I don't misunderstand the teaching of Yeshua on this matter. He is very clear that if a person does not forgive his brother his sins, then that person's own sins will not be forgiven. One of the disciples even asks "how many times" and to emphasize the point even further, He says "70 X 7".

This is an extremely important teaching to get right. It is truth for everyone, for anyone who has experienced a nursed grudge knows that inner peace is not possible until it is gone. Christians/Non Christians alike.

The teaching that minimizes this, or leaves it out by definition is Saul/Paul's teaching of "faith alone, grace alone". It is yet another reason I don't esteem him.

 

[Lamb]

I don't misunderstand the teaching of Yeshua on this matter. He is very clear that if a person does not forgive his brother his sins, then that person's own sins will not be forgiven. One of the disciples even asks "how many times" and to emphasize the point even further, He says "70 X 7".

This is an extremely important teaching to get right. It is truth for everyone, for anyone who has experienced a nursed grudge knows that inner peace is not possible until it is gone. Christians/Non Christians alike.

The teaching that minimizes this, or leaves it out by definition is Saul/Paul's teaching of "faith alone, grace alone". It is yet another reason I don't esteem him.

Through Christ we have met that condition. Those who believe are covered by His blood and in His righteousness. When God looks at the faithful, He sees His Son with whom He is well pleased. Nothing is lacking in the Christian.

The Law tells me I can't perfectly forgive all my neighbors. The Gospel tells me that Christ has done that for me and I am covered by His blood. I have salvation and no one can take that away from me by telling me I have to do something for the Law. Christ fulfilled all conditions in my place.

 

[Stravinsk]

Through Christ we have met that condition. Those who believe are covered by His blood and in His righteousness. When God looks at the faithful, He sees His Son with whom He is well pleased. Nothing is lacking in the Christian.

The Law tells me I can't perfectly forgive all my neighbors. The Gospel tells me that Christ has done that for me and I am covered by His blood. I have salvation and no one can take that away from me by telling me I have to do something for the Law. Christ fulfilled all conditions in my place.

Perhaps then, we might ask Yeshua why it is in the very prayer that we are to say -

"forgive our sins (debts) as we forgive those who sin (trespass) against us..."

Doesn't say anything about asking Christ to do it for us. Doesn't say it's not a necessary part of the law. Isn't included because it was all taken care of at the cross. The onus is on the individual to obey, and it would not be there unless it was possible to do so.

 

[Josiah]

The thing spoken of (grace by faith alone) , which Lutherans hold (don't know about Catholics or other denominations) is unfortunately at odds with Yeshua's teachings. For one thing, it is clear that forgiveness is required from the believer towards others who have wronged him or her. Not only is it part of the Lord's prayer but it is an explicit teaching of Yeshua. You don't forgive - you don't get to be forgiven - whether you believe in the sacrifice and resurrection of Yeshua or not.

No, the Gospel is not "at odds" with Scripture. It is taught by Scripture and is the essence of Christianity.

The LAW condemns ALL who are not PERFECT (just as God is), HOLY (exactly as God is), LOVING (exactly as God is). ALL who fall short of that deserve temporal and eternal damnation. The Law says that - OT and NT (God never changed His mind). Yes, many water down the Law so as to become meaningless and achievable, but they are the ones "at odds" with Scripture and the Law. The GOSPEL tells us that Christ came to fulfill the Law, that Christ came to save the lost (that's EVERYONE), that He came to forgive. He came in MERCY and in unconditional love. Via His life, death and resurrection..... via HIS works..... via HIS righteousness..... via HIS blood..... via HIS resurrection.... there is forgiveness. We apprehend this by means of faith (reliance) in what CHRIST has done. Thus, the Law condemns ALL..... but the Gospel offers forgiveness, reconciliation, life to ALL.

Unfortunately, some have SO watered down the Law that it becomes just a short list of suggestions which are easily met - so that that one can boast of themselves and not need the Cross or the Christ, not need mercy or grace, not need forgiveness because they have a goody, goody self in which they rely. If there is any Gospel at all to them (so watered down), it's a mushy "God loves me cuz I'm ME" and "God helps me be the wonderful person I AM." IMO, it is these folks who are "at odds" with Scripture.



Thank you.


- Josiah




.

 

[Lamb]

Perhaps then, we might ask Yeshua why it is in the very prayer that we are to say -

"forgive our sins (debts) as we forgive those who sin (trespass) against us..."

Doesn't say anything about asking Christ to do it for us. Doesn't say it's not a necessary part of the law. Isn't included because it was all taken care of at the cross. The onus is on the individual to obey, and it would not be there unless it was possible to do so.

What better way to show love to your neighbor than by forgiving him? God wants us to love our neighbors.

Trust in what happened at the cross. Don't rely on your own accomplishments because you'll always fail.

 

[MoreCoffee]

We ask God to forgive us our sins. We set an example of what we mean by noting how we forgive our debtors.