Churches, Doctrines, and Trustworthiness

MoreCoffee

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All are free to accept or reject but for those who are deaf concerning the voice of God should not be leading the charge to reject words from God. They should be on their face asking the Holy Spirit to lead them into all truth and asking to hear God

How would one know that a person is "deaf concerning the voice of God" if they state that they fully and completely believe in God and receive the holy scriptures as revelation from God and cultivate an attitude of listening with patience to the voice of the Spirit in what they teach and do? Surely the content of a claimed private revelation needs to be tested and surely the community of the faithful are the appropriate judges of the claimed revelation. That is what First Corinthians teaches when it is written "Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said." (1 Corinthians 14:29 NIV ) Saint Paul does not advise the Corinthian Christians that they ought to refrain from judging messages and instead fall on their faces appealing to God for the same prophetic gift that the ones who spoke claimed. Surely the scripture is true when it says "They are not all apostles or prophets or teachers. Not everyone has the power to work miracles or to heal diseases or to speak in strange tongues or to explain what is said." (1 Corinthians 12:29-30 GNB) And nor should all living today aspire to have the most "attractive" and "spiritual" gifts since "If the whole body were just an eye, how would there be any hearing? If the whole body were hearing, how would there be any smelling? As it is, God has put all the separate parts into the body as he chose." (1 Corinthians 12:17-18 NJB)
 

Lamb

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Yes, we need to ask the Holy Spirit to guide us, but He will NEVER contradict what scripture tells us.
 

Josiah

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Yes, we need to ask the Holy Spirit to guide us, but He will NEVER contradict what scripture tells us.

Of course, I completely agree.

I guess want I "see" as dangerous is when the "US' is replaced by "ME." Perhaps my "roots" are sensitive to this, but I see much of the "problem" in Christianity as the substitution of self for community. As if self can (must?) declare that only SELF is lead by God, only SELF is taught by God, only SELF knows what God meant to say in Scripture rather than what God actually said. It's that ME-ism, that individualism, that self crowning self that I think is at the root of where Christianity turned down a wrong road.

IMO, what we need is more US. More humility.... more community.... more accountability. Less of that very ROMAN obsession with self, individualism, power, lordship, obedence to ME. It is - in large part - the root of my departure from Catholicism BUT I recognize such exists in Protestantism too (at times, MORE SO than in Catholicism).

I admit, too, I have been influenced by Eastern Orthodoxy at this point, too. I LIKE their emphasis on CORPORATE Christianity, that the church is NOT me, NOT any denomination, NOT any ruler..... it's US. Together. But.... I've witnessed..... the individualism, institutionalism.... yup, it's there too. Perhaps inescapable where sinners are involved.

And I'm uber-sensitive that ... in practice.... some of this is unavoidable. I - singularly - chose to leave the RCC. Where do I get off making such a decision? Ah.... I excuse myself (a very tiny bit) by noting it's the RCC who so passionately, with so much obsession, deserted the church and followed the way of Rome. But .... yeah..... I took it upon MYSELF to declare that wrong.....

A tension? A paradox? Maybe just a problem where sin exists, where understanding is limited?

Welcome to my world....



Lord, have mercy. Christ, have mercy. Lord, have mercy.



- Josiah
 

psalms 91

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Yes, we need to ask the Holy Spirit to guide us, but He will NEVER contradict what scripture tells us.
Absolutely correct and to the other post we are not talking what scripture says to you but rather what God speaks to you and how the Holy Spirit leads and teachs you, nopt man, not commentaries, not some pastor or leader but the Holy Spirit direct and or the voice of God speaking to us.
 

Josiah

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Lammchen said:
Yes, we need to ask the Holy Spirit to guide us, but He will NEVER contradict what scripture tells us.


Absolutely correct and to the other post we are not talking what scripture says to you but rather what God speaks to you and how the Holy Spirit leads and teachs you, nopt man, not commentaries, not some pastor or leader but the Holy Spirit direct and or the voice of God speaking to us.


Lamm said US. Not Bill. Or Josiah. Or any person or denomination.

Too often we see people insisting that God ONLY leads ME. They go on and on about how God leads THEM - singularly, individually, uniquely. How THEY follow and obey and believe God - singularly, uniquely, individually. Every heresy seems to begin with: God told ME..... everyone else is wrong, but I can't be wrong, says I, about ME.

Yes, I think WE need to ask God to lead US. And yes, like Lamm, I believe God won't contradict Himself so what He teaches US will be what He taught US in Scripture.... in words, in the words there. I think much caution is needed to the point (so often heard): SURE, we all know the words in Scripture, but God told ME that that's not what He means, what He MEANT to pen there in the Bible is actually what I'm the first to know..... and I'M telling you now..... cuz God told ME." I don't believe I own the Bible or the Holy Spirit. I don't believe I'm personally the Church. I don't believe God is mandated to agree with ME or that I'M the only one God leads or teaches. I just don't have the ego and gull for such. But some do.
 
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visionary

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I think that it may have no relationship to any truth from scripture, but that the seriousness at which the parents take the responsibility to raise the child into the faith is.
 

Lamb

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You're right, parents should keep their promise to God in raising the child to know Him and what He's done for their salvation.
 

psalms 91

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Yes, dedication is a serious vow before God. Breaking vows to God carried serious consequences in the Old (think splitting the animal in two and walking between the two halves and vowing that if I broke the vow may the same happen to me as happened to this animal) vows are serious.
 

Pedrito

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In Post #17 on Page 2 and Posts #23 and #25 on Page 3, I was accused of divisiveness.

Rather, I was presenting a modern parable, then inviting those who are willing, to join hands and explore God's Holy Revelation as one.

As a follow-up, let me float a few thoughts re other thoughts that have been expressed in this thread.


Josiah Post #33
Look to the HISTORIC understanding, the ECUMENICAL understanding. Look to the Creeds, the Councils.
Well, that might depend on what is meant by “historic” and “creeds” and “councils”.

How far back into history does one wish to go? If one goes right back to Jesus and the apostles, one sees teachings and understandings which differ from early church councils, and even from early church fathers. One sees “the faith once and for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 1:3), complete, fully revealed, fully understood, doctrines already set in concrete.

Creeds? Which ones? What about the “Apostles' Creed”? Christianity Today says of it: “The most common view is that it was originally developed in the first or second century and was influenced later by the Nicene Creed.”. Even though it may not be in its exact original form, if it was originally penned closer to apostolic times, might it not most closely reflect apostolic teaching? Why don't we stop there and ignore later ones?

Councils? Which ones? All of them up until today? All of them up until the “Reformation”? Do we, when regarding those deemed appropriate to quote from as authoritative, accept all their conclusions and teachings, or do we choose to cherry-pick the bits that we want to use to bolster our position?

Which was the last acceptable Council?


Continued ...
 

Pedrito

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I tender the following quotes from people who belong to or attend organisations that have the unscriptural concept of the “age of accountability” embedded in their doctrine set. These people have given no indication that they personally take issue with that unscriptural concept.

bill1231 Post #35:
I am curiious how many in here hear from God, the Holy nSpirit concerning the Word and direction in their life. If they are not listening for Gods voice and claim not to hear from Him then I wonder what business they have calling anyone out who does hear from God.
(Alithis liked this post.)

visionary Post #36:
I say, go one step further and ask God to teach, and then follow His lead. He will take you through scriptures in a way that answers your heart's questions, gives you direction into all truth, and blesses you with a connection with Him that transcends the power of man's authority.
(Tigger, Alithis, bill1231 liked this post.)

Lämmchen Post #38:
The sure way of knowing we are on the right path is by God's Word. For those who say they listen to that small voice and it isn't in line with God's Word, that isn't from God. It happens all the time and we get so many new denominations that way and heresies. God's Word is always true. Men lie.
MoreCoffee Post #39:
Seems to me that the Holy Spirit is present in the Church and that he works to lead and guide the faithful as a community through the holy scriptures and through the sacraments and through the liturgy and prayers of the people. The faithful hear God's voice in the things I mentioned. … It seems that there is too much emphasis on individuals hearing and acting on what is heard and not enough emphasis on the community hearing and receiving or rejecting according the the leading of the Holy Spirit within the community as a whole in your post.
bill1231 Post #40:
All are free to accept or reject but for those who are deaf concerning the voice of God should nort be leading the charge to reject words from God. They should be on their face asking the Holy Spirit to lead them into all truth and asking to hear God
Lämmchen Post #42:
Yes, we need to ask the Holy Spirit to guide us, but He will NEVER contradict what scripture tells us.
(bill1231 liked this post.)

Josiah Post #43:
Of course, I completely agree.
bill1231 Post #44:
Absolutely correct and to the other post we are not talking what scripture says to you but rather what God speaks to you and how the Holy Spirit leads and teachs you, nopt man, not commentaries, not some pastor or leader but the Holy Spirit direct and or the voice of God speaking to us.

It would seem that, according to the above quotes, the Holy Spirit directs, and the voice of God tells, people to hold to beliefs that are contrary to each other, and contrary to God's Holy Revelation to us. I find that idea (which of course is never acknowledged openly) interesting, to say the least. I'm sure God does, too.


Continued ...
 
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Lamb

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No, people tell other people things contrary to what God says. God does not contradict. People like to believe what their itching ears tell them. If scripture doesn't make sense, they use human reasoning to try to sort it out instead of believing what God says in scripture; oftentimes changing what was written or saying, no that isn't written, when it is.
 

psalms 91

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No, people tell other people things contrary to what God says. God does not contradict. People like to believe what their itching ears tell them. If scripture doesn't make sense, they use human reasoning to try to sort it out instead of believing what God says in scripture; oftentimes changing what was written or saying, no that isn't written, when it is.
Exactly
 

Pedrito

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We must thank Lämmchen for her pointed and accurate statements:
No, people tell other people things contrary to what God says. God does not contradict.
People like to believe what their itching ears tell them.
If scripture doesn't make sense, they use human reasoning to try to sort it out instead of believing what God says in scripture;
oftentimes changing what was written or saying, no that isn't written, when it is.
Lämmchen has, by those statements, unequivocally confirmed that the conflicting doctrinal differences and beliefs held by posters in this thread (and forum) are the result of humans not following as the Holy Spirit directs, and not listening to what the voice of God is trying to tell them.

God is not the author of confusion.

Her declarations simply mean that no more than one group (organisation, church, denomination) can be truly representing God's truth. And human nature being the way it is, maybe not even one. But maybe there is a close fit somewhere.

But where?

Maybe Lämmchen's words will help steer us in the right direction:
oftentimes changing what was written or saying, no that isn't written, when it is
especially when combined with the indisputable flip side:
oftentimes adding what was not written and saying, yes that is written, when it is not.


Factoring in the unscriptural notion of “the age of accountability”, can we not commence the process by eliminating every church group that relies on that concept?

(Personal loyalties to people's current church groups permitting, of course.)
 

Pedrito

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Back in Post #31 on Page 4, the idea of unencumbered Bible study was floated (without that term actually being used).

It was suggested, among other things:
The primary principle is simply to read the Bible as God had it written. That means reading the Scriptures carefully and with deliberation. Look at ...each verse..., ...each phrase..., ...each word... and ...each passage..., without rushing, slowly. See what they actually say. Note any differences between what they say and what we thought (had been taught) they meant. Note how some of them must be interpreted to line up with the established doctrine you are used to.

Generally speaking (and this is the primary principle), understanding God's Holy Revelation to us is less a matter of interpretation and more a matter of reading the Bible as God penned it.

(Older translations such as Young's Literal and Rotherham generally have less doctrinal bias written into them than modern ones.)

However, a few summarised background pointers may help us take the step back that is needed for that fresh, unencumbered look.

1. If you find a verse that, when looked at carefully, seems to be internally inconsistent, (in fact, whenever you do, because you will), look at the God-inspired verse or verses immediately preceding it or immediately following it. Look at them (it) carefully. See what they reveal (it reveals). Do not simply brush them (it) aside. God put that verse (those verses) there deliberately.

2. The Greek word theos and the Hebrew elohim, both translated “God” or “god” in English, have something in common. Their meaning is broader than the English equivalent. Both words can have the sense of a great, superhuman being, and even someone who has the power of life and death over you, or a person who can at least dramatically affect your future for better or for worse. (Elohim can also be translated “gods” at times; it depends on the context.)

3. Languages do not merely have different sounding words (vocabulary). They have different structures as well. For example, some languages have two words for “our” – a word for “our including you the hearer” and a separate word for “our excluding you the hearer”. (That is actually clearer than English.)

Now, neither Greek nor Hebrew has the equivalent of “a” or “an” in English. That means that context is sometimes important for capturing correct meaning. As a simple example, in the original vowel-less written Hebrew (consonants only) one particular written word could mean “a dog”, “dog” or “Caleb”.

There are more important examples waiting to be discovered in the English translations of our Bibles. For instance, if you find a verse that contains self-contradictory ideas when looked at carefully, maybe the insertion of an “a” or an “an” will clarify how the verse should be translated to overcome the inconsistency. At times, the same insertion will also lead to that verse harmonising with a verse or verses before and/or after it.

4. I used to have significant contact with a Greek person who knew modern and ancient Greek well. He informed me that impersonal things which display dynamism are sometimes referred to in personal terms. For instance, a strong wind, a raging storm, a wild sea, could be referred to using personal terms (he, or she, or as if possessing sentience and will). Such terms would not be used of a table or a chair. It happens in English, too. I have heard operating systems in a large computers being referred to as “he”.

5. A quick search through the Old Testament to gain understanding with respect to what the term “Father” meant in the Jewish mind (and therefore Jesus' mind and the apostles' minds) with respect to God, might prove enlightening.


I offer these thoughts as aids to anyone in whom the thought expressed in Post #30 strikes a chord:
Turning Christians into warring against each other?

Hardly.

Rather, it was inviting those who are willing, to join hands and explore God's Holy Revelation as one.
 

Pedrito

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MoreCoffee in Post #41 on Page 5, asked:
How would one know that a person is "deaf concerning the voice of God" if they state that they fully and completely believe in God and receive the holy scriptures as revelation from God and cultivate an attitude of listening with patience to the voice of the Spirit in what they teach and do?
Could the answer in fact be easy to determine? At least in one aspect?

I float the thought that the answer is an unequivocal “Yes!”

Consider:

If a person displays belief in any doctrine (or concept) that God did not reveal or proclaim in His Holy Word, for instance the “age of accountability” (however it may be expressed), then that person in reality is most definitely "deaf concerning the voice of God".

Is that not pointedly so, despite any and all direct and indirect proclamations that that person may make to the contrary? (See the quotes in Post #50 on Page 5, for instance.)

Can we not inarguably say, “Of course! It is obviously so!”?


(And is not MoreCoffee's “I like what the Church teaches because what the Church teaches is the teaching of Christ”, in Post #52 on Page 6 of the 'How do Orthodox Christians calculate which day is Good Friday?' thread, yet another proclamation lacking credence?)


I submit that a person self-identifies themselves as "deaf concerning the voice of God" simply by holding any belief that is not revealed by the Holy God in His Holy Scriptures.


And I further submit that the question posed by MoreCoffee (quoted at the top of this post) has been satisfactorily addressed, both directly and pointedly.


Continued …
 

psalms 91

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can they, yes. If you dont hear the spirit speaking to you then yes
 

visionary

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The idea of an online bible study here is good. Should we make a thread for every verse? The reason I ask is because while most verses go with general acceptance, there are verses that are the keys to controversy and contention. They take more effort to untangle.

What we could do is have a thread where the verses are posted and comments made. If there is any controversy or contention, then a new thread is created to open it up for deeper study and presentations on it.
 

MoreCoffee

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...
I submit that a person self-identifies themselves as "deaf concerning the voice of God" simply by holding any belief that is not revealed by the Holy God in His Holy Scriptures.
...

Exactly where is "a person self-identifies themselves as "deaf concerning the voice of God" simply by holding any belief that is not revealed by the Holy God in His Holy Scriptures" found in the holy scriptures? Or is this evidence that the author of the quote in italics is "deaf concerning the voice of God"?
 

visionary

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2 Timothy 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

Isaiah 6:10 "Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed."

Jeremiah 6:10 To whom shall I speak and give warning That they may hear? Behold, their ears are closed And they cannot listen Behold, the word of the LORD has become a reproach to them; They have no delight in it.

Ezekiel 12:2 "Son of man, you live in the midst of the rebellious house, who have eyes to see but do not see, ears to hear but do not hear; for they are a rebellious house.

Zechariah 7:11 "But they refused to pay attention and turned a stubborn shoulder and stopped their ears from hearing.

Matthew 13:15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'

Acts 28:26 saying, 'GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY, "YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; AND YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

Proverbs 28:9 He who turns away his ear from listening to the law, Even his prayer is an abomination.

Ezekiel 33:32 "Behold, you are to them like a sensual song by one who has a beautiful voice and plays well on an instrument; for they hear your words but they do not practice them.

Mark 4:9-12 And He was saying, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables,

Luke 8:10 And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.
 

Pedrito

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MoreCoffee in Post #58 on Page 6, asked:
Originally Posted by Pedrito
...
I submit that a person self-identifies themselves as "deaf concerning the voice of God" simply by holding any belief that is not revealed by the Holy God in His Holy Scriptures.
...
Exactly where is "a person self-identifies themselves as "deaf concerning the voice of God" simply by holding any belief that is not revealed by the Holy God in His Holy Scriptures" found in the holy scriptures? Or is this evidence that the author of the quote in italics is "deaf concerning the voice of God"?

I think the following scriptures will do.

1 Thessalonians 1:7,8:
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 4:17:
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Seeing that to disobey the Gospel one must be aware of it, and seeing that the Gospel is clearly and fully laid out in the Holy Scriptures (Jude 1:3), I submit that disobeying the Gospel (including the holding of doctrines not revealed by God in those Holy Scriptures), equates to being deaf concerning the voice of God.
 
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