Slain in the spirit

[Lamb]

So everyone is saved then?

No, everyone is not saved. Faith comes first so that we MAY believe. It's not the other way around.

As for the topic of being slain in the spirit. I like the part in the Old Testament where people fell face first and not backward. There are too many fakes in this world wanting attention and to feel that God has made them special in some way. Yet, we're all special since He died FOR US and in our place. Ezekiel 1:28, Daniel 8:17-18, Daniel 10:9

 

[psalms 91]

He received something he didn't believe in, right?

Why do you say that? The Old Testament had the Holy Spirit in it and I am sure he believed in that thus also the Holy Spirit. I think you are trying to make something fiit that doesnt

 

[MoreCoffee]

I agree that it is very common as I initially was very anti Catholic. But to condemn a faithful person based on the tradition of their denomination is wrong, and against the teachings of Christ, and if you don't believe what Christ taught then you very well may be condemned. Of course salvation is available to all, and any can repent.

And yes; may God have mercy on each and every one of us that we might shew forth His will, and bring people into His light.

It sounded like I was personally condemning other. That isn't what I meant to convey. I am no judge.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

In the Presbyterian church that I attended I was taught to be anti-Catholic in all sorts of ways some were little (such as competing with Catholics to say "amen" when cued) and some were large (such as complaining about Trent's definition of Justification) and some were deeply ingrained into Presbyterian Culture (mainly through the anti-papist statements in the Westminster Confession of Faith). Yet for all that teaching I failed to absorb the anti-Catholicism properly so when I decided to check up on what Catholics believe and teach and bought a book called "The Teaching of Christ - a Catholic Catechism for Adults" I discovered that Catholics did not in fact teach or believe that things that the WCF said nor did they teach and believe the things said by my pastors in the Presbyterian church. So I am quite careful about voicing opinions about what others allegedly believe and teach - as if I were an expert on what their denomination says - and leave it to members to say what they believe and why. That is why I ask about being "slain in the spirit" without implying that I know what Charismatic/Pentecostal people teach and believe about it.

Still, I have not seen any clear and well reasoned presentation to suggest that the holy scriptures document 'being slain in the spirit"

 

[Josiah]

So everyone is saved then?

All are alive because of His MERCY....

Yes, God's love is universal and unconditional.... so yes, all are loved.

No, not all are saved because saved (justification - narrow) is: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. ONE inseparable reality. Yes, the gratia and Christus parts are universal, the fide part is not.

 

[visionary]

Lets see, he was a pharasee who had been highly taught so he believed and loved God, he believed in the holy spirit, he just didnt know who jesus was and considered His followers to be heretics and hunted them down, that pretty well covers it I think

I agree. His behavior indicates a man on a mission. What fired him up? Was it the convictions that it was true, Yeshua was the Messiah, which went against the grain of everything he has been taught as a Pharisee. The Pharisee camp was divided as to whether or not Yeshua was the Messiah. Gamaliel argued for open-mindedness on this point.

Acts 5:34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;

There were those who were actually looking out for Yeshua and warned Him.

Luke 13:30-31 "On that very day some Pharisees came, saying to Him, "Get out and depart from here, for Herod wants to kill You."

Paul was taught from the Gamaliel, a well respected and recognized Pharisee doctor of Jewish Law.

Acts 22:3 ...."at the feet of Gamaliel, [and] taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers".

Rabban Gamaliel I, was a leading authority in the Sanhedrin in the early 1st century CE. At the Sanhedrin counsel we get a little idea into the workings of Paul's teacher on the matter of Yeshua.

Acts 5:38 "And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."

It is with this backdrop we can see the spiritual warfare within Paul's own faith and doubt.

 

[visionary]

All are alive because of His MERCY....

Yes, God's love is universal and unconditional.... so yes, all are loved.

No, not all are saved because saved (justification - narrow) is: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. ONE inseparable reality. Yes, the gratia and Christus parts are universal, the fide part is not.

Saved is by the grace of God. God in His mercy may choose whom He will be to saved for His Kingdom, even those who are "not of this fold" who " know not His name".

 

[Lamb]

None of us are in His Kingdom until He puts us there

 

[tango]

Why do you say that? The Old Testament had the Holy Spirit in it and I am sure he believed in that thus also the Holy Spirit. I think you are trying to make something fiit that doesnt

I just don't think "you can't receive what you don't believe" is any more than a soundbite that means nothing. We all heard God's call at some point even if we didn't believe in it at the time. Saul was knocked down by a blinding white light but if you'd asked him 10 minutes beforehand whether he believed such a thing was possible I'd bet he would have been very resolute that it wasn't.

 

[Alithis]

how did "slain in the spirit " become about saved by grace ?

 

[MoreCoffee]

how did "slain in the spirit " become about saved by grace ?

The thread travelled from 'slain in the spirit' to 'saved by grace' by the road created with the claim "you can't receive what you don't believe". What happened is that one person wrote "you can't receive what you don't believe" implying that if you don't believe in being slain in the spirit then you can't receive it. Others responded that "you can't receive what you don't believe" is not true and gave examples including the graces given by God to atheists and the grace of salvation given to people who did not believe before the grace was received. So the the connection is the claim "you can't receive what you don't believe" which appears to be an untrue claim.

 

[Alithis]

No, everyone is not saved. Faith comes first so that we MAY believe. It's not the other way around.

As for the topic of being slain in the spirit. I like the part in the Old Testament where people fell face first and not backward. There are too many fakes in this world wanting attention and to feel that God has made them special in some way. Yet, we're all special since He died FOR US and in our place. Ezekiel 1:28, Daniel 8:17-18, Daniel 10:9

in regard to fakes - its thier fruits that give them away .we don't have to (and shouldn't ) make snap judgments -they wil show themselves up in time and season .

like the individual in england i think it was - who fell and injured herself - then sued the congregation she attends for not providing " a catcher " ! slain in the spirit ?? hmm which spirit ?

 

[Alithis]

By the road created with the claim "you can't receive what you don't believe". What happened is that one person wrote "you can't receive what you don't believe" implying that if you don't believe in being slain in the spirit then you can't receive it. Others responded that "you can't receive what you don't believe" is not true and gave examples including the graces given by God to atheists and the grace of salvation given to people who did not believe before the grace was received. So the the connection is the claim "you can't receive what you don't believe" which appears to be an untrue claim.

oh ok.. well maybe thats just a case of a comment that needed fine tuning

for example -perhaps they could have worded it .." you wont (by choice of will) receive what you dont believe because you simply choose not to receive it .

and also there is a clear distinction between OT presence of the holy Spirit "ON" a person
and the NT in dwelling presence of the Holy spirit "IN" a person .. you wont recive the indwelling of the holy Spiirt unwillingly you have to open to him .
but you can receive his presence ON you (methinks ) without believing or having faith in him .. just the same as a non believer can be healed but still not be saved .the healing is not salvation,it is healing .the one receiving healing may not believe they would do so ,yet still got healed becaseu the one praying beleived .

so i must agree that you can receive what you dont believe .. BUT you cannot receive the holy Spirit within you without true repentance -his presence ON you is asking that of you , but if we do not submit to his call to repent .. he will leave us alone again . but how terrible is that .

 

[MoreCoffee]

oh ok.. well maybe thats just a case of a comment that needed fine tuning

for example -perhaps they could have worded it .." you wont (by choice of will) receive what you don't believe because you simply choose not to receive it .

and also there is a clear distinction between OT presence of the holy Spirit "ON" a person
and the NT in dwelling presence of the Holy spirit "IN" a person .. you wont receive the indwelling of the holy Spirit unwillingly you have to open to him .
but you can receive his presence ON you (methinks ) without believing or having faith in him .. just the same as a non believer can be healed but still not be saved .the healing is not salvation,it is healing .the one receiving healing may not believe they would do so ,yet still got healed because the one praying believed .

so i must agree that you can receive what you don't believe .. BUT you cannot receive the holy Spirit within you without true repentance -his presence ON you is asking that of you , but if we do not submit to his call to repent .. he will leave us alone again . but how terrible is that .

The alternatives you offer suffer from the same faults as the original "you can't receive what you don't believe" because atheists who receive grace do not choose to receive it (though they may reject the faith once it is presented to them). And I do not think that the rain and sunshine that God gives to all humanity (and all creatures on Earth) must be received by an act of will or by believing that rain will fall or the sun shine. Further there really is no reason to raise the idea of the holy Spirit being ON or IN a person since that is not an issue in the discussion either of being slain in the spirit or of receiving grace without faith/belief prior to receiving it. One last thought, do you think that the apostles needed to believe they would receive the Spirit when Jesus breathed on them and said "receive the holy Spirit"? (John 20:22)

 

[Alithis]

you .. as i , have fallen into a wrongful pattern .. and i am ceasing it henceforth -it is a pattern of reading to much into what people say here and then finding fault in a spirit of argumentativeness at every possible and even improbable turn .i am repenting of it .

 

[MoreCoffee]

... i , have fallen into a wrongful pattern .. and i am ceasing it henceforth -it is a pattern of reading to much into what people say here and then finding fault in a spirit of argumentativeness at every possible and even improbable turn .i am repenting of it .

Excellent. God help us all to be receptive to the Spirit's leading.

 

[tango]

oh ok.. well maybe thats just a case of a comment that needed fine tuning

for example -perhaps they could have worded it .." you wont (by choice of will) receive what you dont believe because you simply choose not to receive it .

and also there is a clear distinction between OT presence of the holy Spirit "ON" a person
and the NT in dwelling presence of the Holy spirit "IN" a person .. you wont recive the indwelling of the holy Spiirt unwillingly you have to open to him .
but you can receive his presence ON you (methinks ) without believing or having faith in him .. just the same as a non believer can be healed but still not be saved .the healing is not salvation,it is healing .the one receiving healing may not believe they would do so ,yet still got healed becaseu the one praying beleived .

so i must agree that you can receive what you dont believe .. BUT you cannot receive the holy Spirit within you without true repentance -his presence ON you is asking that of you , but if we do not submit to his call to repent .. he will leave us alone again . but how terrible is that .

(I realise you're taking a break, just wanted to reply so the thread doesn't drop off the radar)

The problem with "you can't receive what you don't believe" is that it sounds good, it rhymes (and so makes a handy soundbite) but it means almost nothing. As far as I can see you can't fine-tune it without fundamentally changing the meaning of it.

If you choose not to receive something from God then you won't receive it. The picture in Rev 3:20 of Jesus knocking at the door is a powerful one - he will knock and knock and knock but it's for us to open the door (or not) and whatever we decide is on us.

If, as you agree, you can receive what you don't believe it's clear that "you can't receive what you don't believe" isn't true and needs more than a little semantic fiddling to make it true.

(To refer to your apology thread about an argumentative spirit, I just want to stress that I think we're agreeing on this one )