Slain in the spirit

tango

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People attack what they do not understand Bill. Slain in the spirit is something that cannot be explained with meer words. The best explanation I have heard is the Hymn He Touched Me.Something happened! That is the only way to explain it with words. But that is really no "understandable" explanation. Saul was struck blind and dumb for three days straight by his experience.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aO1ge8ASZQ

Can something not be questioned and tested without accusations of it being attacked? I consider myself to be charismatic in outlook but am painfully aware of some of the silliness that goes on within some charismatic circles, where all someone has to do is mention the Holy Spirit, use vague terms like "leading", describe the vision they had, and the immediate assumption is that it must be from God.

We have to strike a balance - Paul told the Thessalonians to "test all things, hold fast what is true". That doesn't mean "reject all things, just in case" but neither did it mean "accept all things so you don't upset anybody". If something is from God it will align with the nature of God as revealed to us in Scripture. If it is not from God then however good it feels, however much people "know it to be true", however strongly people insist that it was "the Holy Spirit at work", it needs to be rejected.
 

psalms 91

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Problem is that natural cannot understand spiritual and never will. Not all things are of Gosd and not all things need beat to death especially when the arguments go round and round as evidenced in a couple of threads already. Just because tyou can outlast soemone does not make you right. If you are going to talk spiritual then it is a good idea to know where God stands on something
 

tango

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Problem is that natural cannot understand spiritual and never will. Not all things are of Gosd and not all things need beat to death especially when the arguments go round and round as evidenced in a couple of threads already. Just because tyou can outlast soemone does not make you right. If you are going to talk spiritual then it is a good idea to know where God stands on something

Outlasting someone has nothing to do with it. But if you want to use terms like "know where God stands" you really need to be able to demonstrate where God stands. Which comes back to using Scripture to demonstrate a point because if all you've got is "I know I'm right" the other guy can just as easily say "actually, I know I'm right" and you hit a deadlock. Some issues will go round and round until the conclusion is that two people interpret the same passages in totally different ways, but when one side is saying "I believe this is true because..." and puts together a detailed Scriptural argument to support their case, and the other side says "I know I'm right" and doesn't provide a single verse of Scripture, why would people take the latter seriously?

"Natural cannot understand spiritual" is also very fine-sounding in its own right but could be used to support just about any argument, however bizarre. It does little more than attempt to elevate the person using it to a superior spiritual state while casting doubters down as "unspiritual". If I were to eat grass like an ox and claim I was being "led by the Spirit" would you accept terms like "natural cannot understand spiritual" to justify what I was doing, or would you look at the parallel with King Nebuchadnezzar and wonder if maybe I wasn't being as spiritual as I might like to claim? What if I'm foaming at the mouth and howling at the full moon, still claiming I'm experiencing a powerful move of the Holy Spirit? At what point would you say that someone was being silly and it clearly wasn't of God?
 

Brighten04

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Can something not be questioned and tested without accusations of it being attacked? I consider myself to be charismatic in outlook but am painfully aware of some of the silliness that goes on within some charismatic circles, where all someone has to do is mention the Holy Spirit, use vague terms like "leading", describe the vision they had, and the immediate assumption is that it must be from God.

We have to strike a balance - Paul told the Thessalonians to "test all things, hold fast what is true". That doesn't mean "reject all things, just in case" but neither did it mean "accept all things so you don't upset anybody". If something is from God it will align with the nature of God as revealed to us in Scripture. If it is not from God then however good it feels, however much people "know it to be true", however strongly people insist that it was "the Holy Spirit at work", it needs to be rejected.

I know what you are saying, however some people ask questions not out of wanting the answer, but to start an argument for the sake of arguing. I cannot explain being "slain in the Spirit" in a way that would satisfy someone. That is why I posted the hymn, even that does not do it justice. The best example in scripture is Saul's Damascus Road experience, because all of the elements are there.But then, you get people mocking for your saying your experience was similar to that. Some spiritual things cannot be explained, and people accuse people of super spirituality simply because they have not had a similar experience. The way I see it, everyone is on a spiritual journey whether they believe it or not.Some people are in different places on the road.Some people are babies needing the simple milk of the word. Some have grown up and can handle some strong meat. Some people have to be spoon fed by their pastors . Some have learned to feed themselves from the Word. So, that said, I understand why you asked the question, but just understand that I may not have the answer you may be looking for. Jesus told Nicodemus
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
 

tango

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I know what you are saying, however some people ask questions not out of wanting the answer, but to start an argument for the sake of arguing.

Sure, I won't dispute that. But it seems to make sense to at least be able to explain why you believe what you believe. If the person asking the question turns out to be just looking to argue for the sake of it you can move on.

I cannot explain being "slain in the Spirit" in a way that would satisfy someone. That is why I posted the hymn, even that does not do it justice. The best example in scripture is Saul's Damascus Road experience, because all of the elements are there.

That seems like a pretty good example to me :) Even that is a huge step forward from a generic "natural can't understand spiritual" comment, especially when the people on the receiving end of it can reasonably be assumed to be Christians. It's not like we're trying to explain something to a non-Christian.

But then, you get people mocking for your saying your experience was similar to that.

That's always possible, but there's a huge difference between "this is what happened to me" and "this is what I read someone else wrote about what happened to someone else again in a land far away so that nobody can check any of the details".

Some spiritual things cannot be explained, and people accuse people of super spirituality simply because they have not had a similar experience. The way I see it, everyone is on a spiritual journey whether they believe it or not.Some people are in different places on the road.Some people are babies needing the simple milk of the word. Some have grown up and can handle some strong meat. Some people have to be spoon fed by their pastors . Some have learned to feed themselves from the Word. So, that said, I understand why you asked the question, but just understand that I may not have the answer you may be looking for. Jesus told Nicodemus
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

There are all sorts of accusations that people might throw around but it's easy to see how viewpoints get ignored and sidelined when the people putting them forward seem unable to come up with anything to support them other than "I know this is true", or present an argument that could literally be used word-for-word to support the exact opposite viewpoint. As I've asked in a couple of threads, when one person experiences something and insists it's Godly, and another person experiences the exact same thing and is strongly repelled by it, we need a means of determining who is right. If a sermon speaks powerfully to you and leaves me utterly unmoved we could easily say that the message was meant for you and not for me. But if it troubled me so greatly that I couldn't stand to be in the same room (or even in the same building), we need something to explain the different reactions. And to stick with the argument that supports either side equally well, the person that would say to me (as the one who was repelled by the experiences I described) that "It's spiritual, you wouldn't understand it" could just as easily be addressed by me describing the discernment that led me to leave with "it's spiritual, you wouldn't understand it".

So once again we come back to Paul's call to "test all things" and the obvious question we need to ask is how we can test. There must be some way of testing - I don't imagine Paul would have given an instruction that was impossible to follow.
 

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Well, John gives us a test.

1John 4:4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
King James Version (KJV)

So applying this test to all things should be enough to satisfy whether something is of God, especially if we can see examples of a thing in scripture. That is all I am saying.
 

visionary

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With respect Bill, if you feel your beliefs are being trashed why not use Scripture to defend them?

Paul lauded the Bereans for searching Scripture to test what he was teaching them. He was obviously confident his teaching would stand up to scrutiny. If you can't defend what you believe to be true using Scripture, how can you be confident that it is true? If what you're saying is nothing more than "I know it to be true" how would you counter the person who says nothing more than "I know it to be false"?

There is a difference between a teaching and an experience. Moses had an experience, as he was not taught to expect what he encountered when God met with him. The best we can do is study scripture to know what others have experienced in God's Presence and prepare as they did, know what to expect, and prayerful test every spirit according to scripture.
 

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experiences in the presence of the lord are of a level of intimacy that transcends the things of this world ..

they are like pearls ..
 

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experiences in the presence of the lord are of a level of intimacy that transcends the things of this world ..

they are like pearls ..

Do experiences transcend the holy scriptures? Are experiences so intimate that no words, not even those of the holy scriptures, can convey their meaning? Are experiences more precious than the pearls one finds in the holy scriptures?
 

psalms 91

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Outlasting someone has nothing to do with it. But if you want to use terms like "know where God stands" you really need to be able to demonstrate where God stands. Which comes back to using Scripture to demonstrate a point because if all you've got is "I know I'm right" the other guy can just as easily say "actually, I know I'm right" and you hit a deadlock. Some issues will go round and round until the conclusion is that two people interpret the same passages in totally different ways, but when one side is saying "I believe this is true because..." and puts together a detailed Scriptural argument to support their case, and the other side says "I know I'm right" and doesn't provide a single verse of Scripture, why would people take the latter seriously?

"Natural cannot understand spiritual" is also very fine-sounding in its own right but could be used to support just about any argument, however bizarre. It does little more than attempt to elevate the person using it to a superior spiritual state while casting doubters down as "unspiritual". If I were to eat grass like an ox and claim I was being "led by the Spirit" would you accept terms like "natural cannot understand spiritual" to justify what I was doing, or would you look at the parallel with King Nebuchadnezzar and wonder if maybe I wasn't being as spiritual as I might like to claim? What if I'm foaming at the mouth and howling at the full moon, still claiming I'm experiencing a powerful move of the Holy Spirit? At what point would you say that someone was being silly and it clearly wasn't of God?
I guess it comes back to what will you accept is of the spirit> Do you even know if there is a svriptural basis for what you find offensive? If you need proof that something is of the spirit thenm Ithat tells me where you stand regarding hearing from God. And no I dont elevate myself at all but I do know that God does lead and affirm
 

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Do experiences transcend the holy scriptures? Are experiences so intimate that no words, not even those of the holy scriptures, can convey their meaning? Are experiences more precious than the pearls one finds in the holy scriptures?

no .they are affirmed by the word

thats how it was for me (not that i have had the experience of being slayed in the spirit as people call it )
but when i was baptized in the holy Ghost .. later i was home in bed and as I lay there i had a vision which glorified the lord JEsus and i received many revelations of the word become flesh .So giving me a deep comprehension of what is already written in scripture - the Holy Spirit never contradicts the word of God and if we think he does .. we are lacking comprehension because he never contradicts the word of God .Without the Holy Spirit we canot perceive the things of the Spirit . the apostles were with the lord Jesus himself and yet it was not until after they were baptised in the holy Spirit that they began to understand the things the lord Jesus had been saying to them .
 

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no .they are affirmed by the word

that's how it was for me (not that i have had the experience of being slain in the spirit as people call it )
but when i was baptized in the holy Ghost .. later i was home in bed and as I lay there i had a vision which glorified the lord Jesus and i received many revelations of the word become flesh .So giving me a deep comprehension of what is already written in scripture - the Holy Spirit never contradicts the word of God and if we think he does .. we are lacking comprehension because he never contradicts the word of God .Without the Holy Spirit we cannot perceive the things of the Spirit . the apostles were with the lord Jesus himself and yet it was not until after they were baptised in the holy Spirit that they began to understand the things the lord Jesus had been saying to them .

What causes me to feel concern for those who claim a separate baptism of the spirit and various experiences that they associate with the spirit is that rather than being content with what they believe they've received they go out to evangelise others with the aim of getting them to have the same or similar experiences and way too many of the Charismatic and Pentecostal people I know tell me I am doomed or in gross error or have betrayed the gospel because I am a Catholic and they are not.
 
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visionary

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What causes me to feel concern for those who claim a separate baptism of the spirit and various experiences that they associate with the spirit is that rather than being content with what they believe they've received they go out to evangelise others with the aim if getting them to have the same or similar experiences and way too many of the Charismatic and Pentecostal people I know tell me I am doomed or in gross error or have betrayed the gospel because I am a Catholic and they are not.
What part of that bothers you most, the missing separate baptism of the spirit, the doomed pronouncement, the gross error declaration or the label Catholic?
 

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I do not doubt that people have intense religious feelings and experiences connected to worship, so much that they are overcome and temporarily lose certain motor ability, but this alone doesn't validate anything about the claims of it being of the Spirit. Such religious experiences are hardly exclusive to Christianity.

If memory serves, it is also without precedent in the OT. The filling or being filled by the Holy Spirit doesn't seem to accompany any outward manifestation like to that we see in modern times being called "slain in the Spirit", none of the prophets that I am aware, or David, or anyone else.

Also if memory serves, this whole doctrine is built around 1 or 2 verses, taken out of context.

Religious fervor combined with the power of persuasion and group settings can certainly be a powerful influence on an individual though, that is not something I doubt.
 

Brighten04

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I do not doubt that people have intense religious feelings and experiences connected to worship, so much that they are overcome and temporarily lose certain motor ability, but this alone doesn't validate anything about the claims of it being of the Spirit. Such religious experiences are hardly exclusive to Christianity.

If memory serves, it is also without precedent in the OT. The filling or being filled by the Holy Spirit doesn't seem to accompany any outward manifestation like to that we see in modern times being called "slain in the Spirit", none of the prophets that I am aware, or David, or anyone else.

Also if memory serves, this whole doctrine is built around 1 or 2 verses, taken out of context.

Religious fervor combined with the power of persuasion and group settings can certainly be a powerful influence on an individual though, that is not something I doubt.

How many times do I have to say that it is not a doctrine that is taught. People become overwhelmed by the Holy Ghost and they swoon. And yes in the OT the prophets swooned in the Presence. Read Daniel, Read Isaiah. And we showed what Paul experienced and it was not taken out of context. Read the whole story . But, I forgot, you do not believe Acts, written by Luke, is inspired at all. Why are you even posting in this thread?
 

visionary

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There is an example of OT Holy Spirit... 72 at Mount Sinai.
 

Romanos

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There is an example of OT Holy Spirit... 72 at Mount Sinai.

Hi visionary,

Could you post the Scripture reference please?

Thank you!
 

visionary

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Hi visionary,

Could you post the Scripture reference please?

Thank you!
Numbers 11:25 And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease. 26 But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Numbers 11:25 And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease. 26 But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.

The 72 did not fall down as if they were dead (hence the name 'slain in the spirit'), did they?
 

visionary

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The 72 did not fall down as if they were dead (hence the name 'slain in the spirit'), did they?

Didn't know they had to.. Peter didn't either and as far as the record shows there has been no one in scriptures that fell down having an epileptic type of "slain in the spirit"... experience
 
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