Infant Baptism

[MoreCoffee]

Indoctrination is a problem for followers of any religion that teaches this stuff. It is extra-biblical! the bible does not teach that the waters of baptism save or washes sins away. You cannot cherry pick scripture. You need to take the whole volume of the book about a subject and let Holy Spirit teach you what the truth is...not a religion.

I urge you to return to the one holy catholic and apostolic faith.

 

[Josiah]

All we are commanded to do is to believe and be baptized, and repent and be baptized.

Oh, here's the "THE WORD 'AND' MANDATES ORDER" thing again. You already admitted this whole argument is wrong and gave it up, but here it is again. Friend, IN NO LANGUAGE does the connector "and" (Kai in Koine Greek) mandate order. YES - baptism is connected to all kinds of things, but your point that ORDER is mandated is false (and you've already admitted it). "I got up this morning and I showered and I dressed and I made my coffee and breakfast and I fed the bunny." That is 100% accurate. Absolutely true. But I didn't do them in that ORDER. Friend, "and" is a connector, it has NOTHING to do with order - much less MANDATING it.

Children are INNOCENT of sin

ENTIRELY irrelevant to the topic at hand, but okay..... just quote the verse, "Children are innocent of sin." Then, "It is forbidden to baptizing any who is innocent of sin." When you can quote verbatim those two verses - you MIGHT has SOMETIME related to the topic. But until you do, it's irrelevant. And just another example of big, bold things you say - and then have NOTHING to support it as true.


"NO one is righteous, no, not even one." "ALL people fall short and have sinned." HUM...... Maybe those Scriptures are wrong. Let's wait for you verbatim quote, "But those under the age of X are righteous, those under the age of X do not fall short and cannot sin, those under the age of X are INNOCENT." When you quote THAT verse verbatim..... and then also quote verbatim the verse, "Thou mayest NOT baptize ANYONE who is righteous and innocent" then together you'll have a point relevant to this thread. Until then.... it's just baseless, irrelevant hijacking. More evasion.




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[Full O Beans]

I urge you to return to the one holy catholic and apostolic faith.

Sorry, but following Jesus is what I am called to do.

 

[Full O Beans]

Oh, here's the "THE WORD 'AND' MANDATES ORDER" thing again. You already admitted this whole argument is wrong and gave it up, but here it is again. Friend, IN NO LANGUAGE does the connector "and" (Kai in Koine Greek) mandate order. YES - baptism is connected to all kinds of things, but your point that ORDER is mandated is false (and you've already admitted it). "I got up this morning and I showered and I dressed and I made my coffee and breakfast and I fed the bunny." That is 100% accurate. Absolutely true. But I didn't do them in that ORDER. Friend, "and" is a connector, it has NOTHING to do with order - much less MANDATING it.






ENTIRELY irrelevant to the topic at hand, but okay..... just quote the verse, "Children are innocent of sin." Then, "It is forbidden to baptizing any who is innocent of sin." When you can quote verbatim those two verses - you MIGHT has SOMETIME related to the topic. But until you do, it's irrelevant. And just another example of big, bold things you say - and then have NOTHING to support it as true.


"NO one is righteous, no, not even one." "ALL people fall short and have sinned." HUM...... Maybe those Scriptures are wrong. Let's wait for you verbatim quote, "But those under the age of X are righteous, those under the age of X do not fall short and cannot sin, those under the age of X are INNOCENT." When you quote THAT verse verbatim..... and then also quote verbatim the verse, "Thou mayest NOT baptize ANYONE who is righteous and innocent" then together you'll have a point relevant to this thread. Until then.... it's just baseless, irrelevant hijacking. More evasion.




.

Gosh. You miss the biblical truth that faith and belief always come first. The one who has already become a believer is called by God to be baptized. He isn't calling the unbeliever.

 

[George]

Gosh. You miss the biblical truth that faith and belief always come first. The one who has already become a believer is called by God to be baptized. He isn't calling the unbeliever.

I know there is a kettle being called black by a pot somewhere, but can't seem to find it lol.

 

[Full O Beans]

Lolol. Not.

 

[Alithis]

Sorry, but following Jesus is what I am called to do.

amen .deciples were called to go out ..preach the gospel, heal the sick ,drive out demons ,raise the dead, baptise people and make more deciples ... not join denominations .

 

[Josiah]

amen .deciples were called to go out ..preach the gospel, heal the sick ,drive out demons ,raise the dead, baptise people and make more deciples ....

Amen! But NEVER are disciples told, "But thou MAYEST NOT allow any under the age of X to be baptized!! Thou art forbidden to permit such!"




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[Josiah]

Oh, here's the "THE WORD 'AND' MANDATES ORDER" thing again.

You already admitted this whole argument is wrong and gave it up, but here it is again. Friend, IN NO LANGUAGE does the connector "and" (Kai in Koine Greek) mandate order. YES - baptism is connected to all kinds of things, but your point that ORDER is mandated is false (and you've already admitted it). "I got up this morning and I showered and I dressed and I made my coffee and breakfast and I fed the bunny." That is 100% accurate. Absolutely true. But I didn't do them in that ORDER. Friend, "and" is a connector, it has NOTHING to do with order - much less MANDATING it.






ENTIRELY irrelevant to the topic at hand, but okay..... just quote the verse, "Children are innocent of sin." Then, "It is forbidden to baptizing any who is innocent of sin." When you can quote verbatim those two verses - you MIGHT has SOMETIME related to the topic. But until you do, it's irrelevant. And just another example of big, bold things you say - and then have NOTHING to support it as true.



"NO one is righteous, no, not even one." "ALL people fall short and have sinned." HUM...... Maybe those Scriptures are wrong. Let's wait for you verbatim quote, "But those under the age of X are righteous, those under the age of X do not fall short and cannot sin, those under the age of X are INNOCENT." When you quote THAT verse verbatim..... and then also quote verbatim the verse, "Thou mayest NOT baptize ANYONE who is righteous and innocent" then together you'll have a point relevant to this thread. Until then.... it's just baseless, irrelevant hijacking. More evasion.





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Gosh. You miss the biblical truth that faith and belief always come first.

Gosh. ALL you need to do is quote the verse that states, "But thou mayest NOT baptize any unless and until they FIRST accurately recite the sinners' prayer and adequately participate in an altar call!" We've had SIXTY-FIVE PAGES of posts, yet NONE have been able to find this qualification for baptism stated.... you and others keep INSISTING the Bible states this mandate, states that we are forbidden to permit paedobaptism - but no one, in SIXTY-FIVE PAGES of posts - has yet to quote this verse. I think if this biblical mandate existed...... I think that if you had a verse that stated this prohibition... likely in SIXTY-FIVE PAGES of posts, someone.... someone..... would have quoted it. Indeed, for nearly 500 years, that's nearly FIVE CENTURIES, the great majority of Christians have been waiting for these followers of Mr. Thomas Muenzer to quote this verse they all insist exists, this verse that says we must withhold baptism from those under the age of X (this new ANTI-paedobaptism tradition)... but so far, none of these followers of Muenzer, this protestors of paedobaptism, have got around to quoting the verse. How long must we wait? How many pages does a thread need to go? How many centuries do we Christians need to wait until someone quotes here the Bible says that? Muenzer protested the ancient, universal practice dating to 69 AD at the very, very latest, that of NOT withholding this from those under the age of X BECAUSE they all claim the Bbile states we aren't permitted to allow it. How long must we wait for someone to quote that verse? How long? All we get are diversions, evasions, and "the shell game" (constantly changing the subject) and arguments that the protestors themselves immediately prove they don't follow or believe or do.


Gosh. How you evaded virtually everything in the post you quoted. Again. LOTS of big, bold statements of fact you make.... but then prove you have nothing to substantiate it. You keep saying what matters is what SCRIPTURES STATE but then prove you can't find any Scripture that states what you keep saying. Interesting. Gosh.




- Josiah





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[Full O Beans]

It is clear from scripture that there are prerequisites for baptism. They are obviously being ignored.

One must believe the gospel, and one must repent. Therefore, only Christians are invited to be baptized. Furthermore, baptism must be TAUGHT to a believer so he can actually obey the command to do it....a work, by the way...and works do not save.

Therefore, babies do not have sins to repent of, nor the understanding of what sin is, nor can they believe the gospel, nor can they be taught about baptism, nor can they choose to obey or not obey God.

Baby baptisms come from religiosity, and not from God or His word.

 

[TurtleHare]

Nothing but opinions again? How about answering Josiah?

 

[Josiah]

It is clear from scripture that there are prerequisites for baptism. One must believe the gospel, and one must repent. babies do not have sins to repent of, nor can they believe

And yet, in SIXTY-FIVE PAGES of posts, you haven't gotten around to quoting these Scriptures that state that. How long must we wait for you to get around to it? How long? How long?

The vast majority of Christians have been waiting for nearly 500 years, for nearly FIVE CENTURIES, for these followers of Mr. Thomas Muenzer to quote the verse he insisted exists that mandates one must reach the age of X before they may be permitted to be baptized. We've been waiting for nearly 500 years ALREADY. How much longer must we wait for this verse to be given? How long? How long?

You keep insisting that all that matters to you is WHAT SCRIPTURE STATES. But you keep making all these big, bold statements.... but then you will not (yet) quote Scripture saying that. You refuse to do so. Gosh. No matter how often we ask for it, you just will not quote the Scripture(s) that states what you do, just that all that matters is WHAT SCRIPTURE STATES but you leave us waiting..... waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting... waiting for you to quote the verse(s) that states that. You just won't do it. We keep waiting. And waiting. How long must we wait? How long?

You insist Scripture states one must repent FIRST and only THEN may be baptized. But you've not yet gotten around to quoting the verse that states that. How long must we wait for you to get around to quoting it? How long? How long?

You insist Scripture states one must believe FIRST and only THEN may we permit baptism. But in 65 pages of posts, you've not yet gotten around to quoting the verse that states that. How long must we wait? How long? How long?

You insist that Scripture states one must attain the age of X FIRST and only THEN may we permit baptism. But in 65 pages of posts, you've not gotten around to quoting that verse that states that. How long must we wait?

You insist that Scripture states that those under the age of X are innocent, sinless, perfect and thus we can't permit them to receive baptism. But in 65 pages of posts, you've not gotten around to quoting that verse. How long must we wait?

How long?

How long?



Or do even YOU realize Scripture states NO SUCH THING. You do. It's YOUR tradition, YOUR opinion. It's YOU - not God. It's YOU - not Scripture. Perhaps you are simply confusing you with God, you with Scripture? Is the reason you keep us waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting..... the reason you keep changing the subject.... the reason you keep running from your own bold statements and claims..... is because you realize Scripture does NOT state what you do?????

Or maybe you just haven't gotten around to verbatim quoting the Scriptures you and others insist exist. Maybe we just need more patience. Maybe 65 pages of your posts isn't enough. Maybe nearly 500 years isn't enough time. We just need more patience. We need to give you more pages in the thread.... more centuries of time. If so, could you tell us how long we need to wait before you quote the verse(s) that state what you do, the verses you keep insisting exist? How long do we need to wait before someone gets around to quoting the Scriptures? How long to do need to wait until the evasions stop, the shell game stops, and you (or someone) FINALLY quotes the Scriptures you claim exist? After all, all that matters is what SCRIPTURE STATES (you constantly, perpetually insist) - not your opinions, your viewpoints. Okay. So please, at least let us know how long we need to wait until one of you anti-paedobaptism folks finally get around to quoting the verse(s) you keep insisting exist? How long? How long?




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[Full O Beans]

In all the bluster and your copious words you mean you have not seen the scriptures I referred to in past posts and speak of?

 

[Full O Beans]

Nothing but opinions again? How about answering Josiah?

How about answering my questions and provide definitive scripture where God says to baptize our completely unaware and unable-to-choose babies.

 

[Josiah]

And yet, in SIXTY-FIVE PAGES of posts, you haven't gotten around to quoting these Scriptures that state that. How long must we wait for you to get around to it? How long? How long?

The vast majority of Christians have been waiting for nearly 500 years, for nearly FIVE CENTURIES, for these followers of Mr. Thomas Muenzer to quote the verse he insisted exists that mandates one must reach the age of X before they may be permitted to be baptized. We've been waiting for nearly 500 years ALREADY. How much longer must we wait for this verse to be given? How long? How long?

You keep insisting that all that matters to you is what Scripture STATES. But you keep making all these big, bold statements.... but then you will not (yet) quote Scripture saying that. You refuse to do so. Gosh. No matter how often we ask for it, you just will not quote the Scripture(s) that states what you do, just that all that matters is WHAT SCRIPTURE STATES but you leave us waiting..... waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting... waiting for you to quote the verse(s) that states that. You just won't do it. We keep waiting. And waiting. How long must we wait? How long?

You insist Scripture states one must repent FIRST and only THEN may be baptized. But you've not yet gotten around to quoting the verse that states that. How long must we wait for you to get around to quoting it? How long? How long?

You insist Scripture states one must believe FIRST and only THEN may we permit baptism. But in 65 pages of posts, you've not yet gotten around to quoting the verse that states that. How long must we wait? How long? How long?

You insist that Scripture states one must attain the age of X FIRST and only THEN may we permit baptism. But in 65 pages of posts, you've not gotten around to quoting that verse that states that. How long must we wait?

You insist that Scripture states that those under the age of X are innocent, sinless, perfect and thus we can't permit them to receive baptism. But in 65 pages of posts, you've not gotten around to quoting that verse. How long must we wait?

How long?

How long?



Or do even YOU realize Scripture states NO SUCH THING. You do. It's YOUR tradition, YOUR opinion. It's YOU - not God. It's YOU - not Scripture. Perhaps you are simply confusing you with God, you with Scripture? Is the reason you keep us waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting..... the reason you keep changing the subject.... the reason you keep running from your own bold statements and claims..... is because you realize Scripture does NOT state what you do?????

Or maybe you just haven't gotten around to verbatim quoting the Scriptures you and others insist exist. Maybe we just need more patience. Maybe 65 pages of your posts isn't enough. Maybe nearly 500 years isn't enough time. We just need more patience. We need to give you more pages in the thread.... more centuries of time. If so, could you tell us how long we need to wait before you quote the verse(s) that state what you do, the verses you keep insisting exist? How long do we need to wait before someone gets around to quoting the Scriptures? How long to do need to wait until the evasions stop, the shell game stops, and you (or someone) FINALLY quotes the Scriptures you claim exist? After all, all that matters is what SCRIPTURE STATES (you constantly, perpetually insist) - not your opinions, your viewpoints. Okay. So please, at least let us know how long we need to wait until one of you anti-paedobaptism folks finally get around to quoting the verse(s) you keep insisting exist? How long? How long?


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In all the bluster and your copious words you mean you have not seen the scriptures I referred to in past posts and speak of?

You have YET to quote ANY verses that state what you do.

Which leaves us....... waiting. For SIXTY-FIVE pages of your posts. For nearly FIVE HUNDRED YEARS of this anti-paedobaptism tradition. Waiting. Waiting. Waiting. You insist that what matters is WHAT SCRIPTURE STATES. You insist Scripture states all the big, bold, new things that YOU do. But you just haven't quoted Scripture saying any of those things. How long do we need to wait?




.

 

[Full O Beans]

God has just one way of salvation---not a process, or a series of steps.

People are saved by faith in Jesus Christ. There is no other way. Everything else, such as repentance, prayer, etc. is summed up and settled when one trusts in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of his sins. No one can turn his mind or heart toward God---which is repentance---without faith in Christ. No one can come to Christ without believing on Him.

Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard ?

Romans 10:9-10
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Confession by one's mouth simply proves faith in the heart which has already secured one's salvation.

There is NO OTHER plan of salvation except what He promises us in:

John 3:16,18 and verse 36
16 “For this is how God loved the world: He gave[a] his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.

36 And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”

John 5:24
“I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

John 6:47
“I tell you the truth, anyone who believes has eternal life.


Baptism follows, and should follow immediately, but that isn't a part of God's plan of salvation. Christians who have yet to be baptized are still Christians. Our babies and very young children cannot follow this plan. It is our responsibility under God as Christian parents, to lead our children to follow God's plan of salvation---just as we did!


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[Full O Beans]

You have YET to quote ANY verses that state what you do.

Which leaves us....... waiting. For SIXTY-FIVE pages of your posts. For nearly FIVE HUNDRED YEARS of this anti-paedobaptism tradition. Waiting. Waiting. Waiting. You insist that what matters is WHAT SCRIPTURE STATES. You insist Scripture states all the big, bold, new things that YOU do. But you just haven't quoted Scripture saying any of those things. How long do we need to wait?

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Know the word yourself. Delve in and study to find your own proofs. That is something that is absent from your many words. The only proof that is offered is that religion tells you these things---but God doesn't.

 

[Josiah]

And yet, in SIXTY-FIVE PAGES of posts, you haven't gotten around to quoting these Scriptures that state that. How long must we wait for you to get around to it? How long? How long?

The vast majority of Christians have been waiting for nearly 500 years, for nearly FIVE CENTURIES, for these followers of Mr. Thomas Muenzer to quote the verse he insisted exists that mandates one must reach the age of X before they may be permitted to be baptized. We've been waiting for nearly 500 years ALREADY. How much longer must we wait for this verse to be given? How long? How long?

You keep insisting that all that matters to you is what Scripture STATES. But you keep making all these big, bold statements.... but then you will not (yet) quote Scripture saying that. You refuse to do so. Gosh. No matter how often we ask for it, you just will not quote the Scripture(s) that states what you do, just that all that matters is WHAT SCRIPTURE STATES but you leave us waiting..... waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting... waiting for you to quote the verse(s) that states that. You just won't do it. We keep waiting. And waiting. How long must we wait? How long?

You insist Scripture states one must repent FIRST and only THEN may be baptized. But you've not yet gotten around to quoting the verse that states that. How long must we wait for you to get around to quoting it? How long? How long?

You insist Scripture states one must believe FIRST and only THEN may we permit baptism. But in 65 pages of posts, you've not yet gotten around to quoting the verse that states that. How long must we wait? How long? How long?

You insist that Scripture states one must attain the age of X FIRST and only THEN may we permit baptism. But in 65 pages of posts, you've not gotten around to quoting that verse that states that. How long must we wait?

You insist that Scripture states that those under the age of X are innocent, sinless, perfect and thus we can't permit them to receive baptism. But in 65 pages of posts, you've not gotten around to quoting that verse. How long must we wait?

How long?

How long?



Or do even YOU realize Scripture states NO SUCH THING. You do. It's YOUR tradition, YOUR opinion. It's YOU - not God. It's YOU - not Scripture. Perhaps you are simply confusing you with God, you with Scripture? Is the reason you keep us waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting..... the reason you keep changing the subject.... the reason you keep running from your own bold statements and claims..... is because you realize Scripture does NOT state what you do?????

Or maybe you just haven't gotten around to verbatim quoting the Scriptures you and others insist exist. Maybe we just need more patience. Maybe 65 pages of your posts isn't enough. Maybe nearly 500 years isn't enough time. We just need more patience. We need to give you more pages in the thread.... more centuries of time. If so, could you tell us how long we need to wait before you quote the verse(s) that state what you do, the verses you keep insisting exist? How long do we need to wait before someone gets around to quoting the Scriptures? How long to do need to wait until the evasions stop, the shell game stops, and you (or someone) FINALLY quotes the Scriptures you claim exist? After all, all that matters is what SCRIPTURE STATES (you constantly, perpetually insist) - not your opinions, your viewpoints. Okay. So please, at least let us know how long we need to wait until one of you anti-paedobaptism folks finally get around to quoting the verse(s) you keep insisting exist? How long? How long?




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You have YET to quote ANY verses that state what you do.

If none exist, why do you keep insisting Scripture states we are forbidden to baptize those under the age of X, that Scripture forbids any to be baptized who have not FIRST repented, FIRST believed?

The Bible says to baptize. YOU are the one insisting that SCRIPTURE STATES a whole plethora of prohibitions on that, we may NOT baptize those under the age of X..... we may NOT baptize those who have not first repented..... we may NOT baptize those who have not first correctly recited the sinners' prayer..... we may NOT baptize those under the age of X who THUS are morally perfect..... all these prohibitions YOU INSIST the SCRIPTURES STATE. All these bold, new things YOU are saying..... you have not produced any Scriptures that state any of those things. You've just repeated that what we think doesn't matter, only what SCRIPTURE STATES. When do you plan to quote those Scriptures that state those things?

We're waiting for you to quote the Scriptures that state those things. How long do we need to wait? Evidently for over 66 pages of your posts..... for over 500 years. But when?





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.[/QUOTE]

 

[Full O Beans]

Scripture tells us what TO DO about baptism, not what NOT TO DO. It's when people run off and do what they think is nice and good that brings religion into it, and religion corrupts truth.

 

[Josiah]

Scripture tells us what TO DO about baptism

That probably makes it hard for you to document that SCRIPTURE STATES all the prohibitions you keep placing on it.

But okay. Although it's a bit off topic, just quote the verses that state, "Thou art to ONLY baptize those who have celebrated at least X number of birthdays..... who have FIRST repented.... who have FIRST recited the sinner's prayer..... who FIRST have reached the age of X and therefore are no longer holy, perfect, rightousness for only sinners are to be baptized." Quote that verse. You know, you insist that what you think or what I think or what Thomas Muenzer thinks matters for nothing, what matters is what SCRIPTURES STATE. So quote it stating what you do. And since in 66 pages of your posts you've not had a change to get around to posting this verse(s), could you please tell us when you might get around to it?

It's when people run off and do what they think is nice and good that brings religion into it, and religion corrupts truth.

Like rejecting and protesting the universal practice of all Christians since 69 AD at the very lastest, imposing their OWN new opinions about requirements that they insist the Bible makes but they don't have time to show the Bible actually does?





Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah