Infant Baptism

[Josiah]

You wrote in another post "He says He has given to every man a measure of faith to believe the truth about Jesus"

I wish you'd make up your mind what you believe because you sure do make a mess of it.

Yup.

And of course, it's the ANTI-paedobaptism crowd that tends to argue that the faith of the parents is TRANSFERABLE to their children under the age of X, the faith of the PARENTS saves them. It's a point the embracers of Mr. Thomas Muenzer's new tradition at times make.


But this thread is not about whether God is rendered impotent when a person is under the age of X (and thus CANNOT give faith). It's about this new, rare tradition invented by Mr. Thomas Muenzer in the 16th Century that we must withhold baptism to any under the age of X - thus protesting the universal practice dating back to at least the year 69 AD at the very latest of NOT withholding it based on the receiver being under the age of X. The issue is paedobaptism.


I find the OTHER issue (for another thread) interesting..... those who believe God is rendered impotent if someone is under the age of X, but that's not the issue here. And I find that those who believe God is impotent based on the age of the person tend to disbelieve the soverienty of God and tend to be synergists - not accepting the Protestant foundational belief of SOLA Gratia - SOLUS Christus - SOLA Fide, that Jesus is THE Savior - but rather they tend to believe that it's a cooperative venture, Jesus does what He can but we actually do the important part ourselves, we do the part that actually results in our getting into heaven. Thus thy disagree with the foundational Protestant affirmation of Soli DEO Gloria and instead stress "Glory be to ME!! I did it! MY stuff is the reason I'm going to heaven!" BUT again , all that is stuff for ANOTHER thread. This one is entitled, "Infant Baptism" NOT "Is God Impotent In The Case of Those Under the Age of X?"





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[Full O Beans]

You wrote in another post "He says He has given to every man a measure of faith to believe the truth about Jesus"

I wish you'd make up your mind what you believe because you sure do make a mess of it.

Actually, I do not make a mess of it. The two statements are true. God gives every man who will believe a measure of faith to actually believe. It is also true (and unrelated!), that no one can transfer faith to their offspring by some sort of religious rite.

Please give scriptural proof that a person taking their unaware baby to be baptized is not simply hoping that somehow this baby will receive faith or salvation or something from God---by osmosis!

I'll wait for that authority of God's word you provide.


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[TurtleHare]

I thought you were a believer that God gives faith and I'm not sure why you bring up osmosis because that smacks God in the face since he's the one doing everything and man contributes absolutely nothing to salvation. Yet, your beliefs keep saying that man has to do something or God can't save him, so what a weak god you seem to be believing in as opposed to the STRONG God who gives the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT in baptism! I also don't know where you think that someone else's faith is given to a baby in baptism when God can do the job just fine thank you.

Actually, I do not make a mess of it. The two statements are true. God gives every man who will believe a measure of faith to actually believe. It is also true (and unrelated!), that no one can transfer faith to their offspring by some sort of religious rite.

Please give scriptural proof that a person taking their unaware baby to be baptized is not simply hoping that somehow this baby will receive faith or salvation or something from God---by osmosis!

I'll wait for that authority of God's word you provide.


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[Full O Beans]

If man contributes nothing to salvation, then why take a baby to church to be baptized? Let him do it himself.

Still waiting for your definitive scripture as proof.

 

[TurtleHare]

If man contributes nothing to salvation, then why take a baby to church to be baptized? Let him do it himself.

Still waiting for your definitive scripture as proof.

Let a baby do what? A baby can't give himself faith or the Holy Spirit!

Scripture has been given throughout this thread and I encouraged you before to read it but you would much rather make your brief replies with opinions so I encourage you again to go back and read through the scripture and if you click on one that's blue then hey it shows up on your screen for you so you can read it right there in front of you.

 

[Full O Beans]

Let a baby do what? A baby can't give himself faith or the Holy Spirit!

Scripture has been given throughout this thread and I encouraged you before to read it but you would much rather make your brief replies with opinions so I encourage you again to go back and read through the scripture and if you click on one that's blue then hey it shows up on your screen for you so you can read it right there in front of you.

Correct. A baby will grow to come to faith when we obey God in raising them the way He trusts us to do.

Getting to the point is important. So, let's see the exact scripture that teaches us that a baby can believe and repent of sin and then obey God in baptism.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Catholics baptise infants because holy scripture encourages us to do so and the Church has always done so.

 

[Full O Beans]

Catholics baptise infants because holy scripture encourages us to do so and the Church has always done so.

Show us where scripture says to baptize our babies!

 

[MoreCoffee]

Show us where scripture says to baptize our babies!

The passages that command baptism apply to our children as saint Peter says in Acts 2:39.

For the Promise is for you and for your sons, and for all who are far away: for whomever the Lord our God will have called. (Acts 2:39)

 

[Josiah]

Well.... withholding baptize to those under the age of X (anti-paedobaptism) is a relatively recent invention, a recent (and still rare) tradition. And as has been proven in these 63 pages, those that follow this new tradition invented by Mr. Thomas Muenzer in the 16th Century, the "must withhold baptism until they are at least X year old" tradition, has not been able to produce one verse that so states (in fact, they haven't provided one verse that has ANY prohibitions on this AT ALL - much less specifically to those under the age of X).

Yes, the older tradition dates to AT LEAST 69 AD at the very latest. It is NOT an RCC tradition since the RCC didn't exist then AND because the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox churches did this TOO - before and after the western parishes under the bishop of Rome did so. And of course, most Protestants hold to this much older, much more ecumenically embraced practice - the practice of NOT forbidding baptism to those under this age of X. From 69 AD at the latest until the 16th Century, paedobaptism was the universal practice - and still is by far the most common one.


Now, some (having nothing to the topic) have tried HARD to hijack the thread (which as the opening poster, I've not appreciated!) - ANYTHING to evade support for this new, rare tradition protesting the permitting one to be baptized under the age of X. I wish those would have started their own thread in stead of hijacking mine simply because they insist Mr. Muenzer's new invention is right an the old universal one is wrong - but have NOTHING that gives this prohibition. The issue of whether God is rendered impotent by one under the age of X is an interesting topic (to say the least) but it is not THIS topic.



Pax


- Josiah

 

[Full O Beans]

Go ye into all the world and grab every baby you see, of Islamic, Buddhist and Hindu parentage and baptize them. What will that do for them? If it saves them, then why aren't you doing it?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Go ye into all the world and grab every baby you see, of Islamic, Buddhist and Hindu parentage and baptize them. What will that do for them? If it saves them, then why aren't you doing it?

If that is what you teach then you are teaching error and heresy.

 

[Full O Beans]

If that is what you teach then you are teaching error and heresy.

Anyone who pushes the false doctrine of baby baptism might as well be teaching it.

So, are you saying that only babies of "Christians" can be baptized? Why? Does the faith of the father and/or mother pass by osmosis to the insensate child? That isn't scriptural, either. Certainly, H2O has no power.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Anyone who pushes the false doctrine of baby baptism might as well be teaching it.

So, are you saying that only babies of "Christians" can be baptized? Why? Does the faith of the father and/or mother pass by osmosis to the insensate child? That isn't scriptural, either. Certainly, H2O has no power.

Exclusive credobaptism is a heresy.

Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with godly and agreed true faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same.

 

[Full O Beans]

Exclusive credobaptism is a heresy.

Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with godly and agreed true faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same.

All we are commanded to do is to believe and be baptized, and repent and be baptized. Babies can do NEITHER! You can't make up stuff out of thin air and then twist a belief that is not taught in scripture and expect bible-believing Christians to swallow it. That's like pounding a square peg into a round hole. It is unwise and definitely incongruent with all scripture.

Children are INNOCENT of sin, otherwise Jesus would NOT tells us we must come to Him like little children. He didn't say to come to Him like little sinners, did He?


2 Corinthians 5:10 (NLT)
For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body.

What sins does a baby of 8 months of age have to stand in judgment for?? Right---none. He is already secure in the Lord in his innocence.

 

[Josiah]

credobaptism is a heresy.

The topic here a paedobaptism.

We're discussing those who join with Mr. Thomas Muenzer who invented a new tradition in the 16th Century, insisting that we are forbidden to baptize those under the age of X; he invented an ANTI-paedobaptism view. Joining with Mr. Muenzer in protesting the universal practice going back at least to 69 AD of NOT forbidding those under the age of X. This thread is discussing that.

I agree that the "God-is-rendered-impotent-by-those-under-the-age-of-X" is a very interesting view!!!! It's just not this one. THAT one is common - and always seems to boil down to monergism vs. synergism, whether Jesus is the Savior or just the PART Savior (or just Helper or just Possibility-Maker) - with the key thing belonging to self, making self the effectual Savior. Interesting stuff. But it's not THIS topic.



Pax


- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

All we are commanded to do is to believe and be baptized, and repent and be baptized. Babies can do NEITHER! You can't make up stuff out of thin air and then twist a belief that is not taught in scripture and expect bible-believing Christians to swallow it. That's like pounding a square peg into a round hole. It is unwise and definitely incongruent with all scripture.

Children are INNOCENT of sin, otherwise Jesus would NOT tells us we must come to Him like little children. He didn't say to come to Him like little sinners, did He?


2 Corinthians 5:10 (NLT)
For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body.

What sins does a baby of 8 months of age have to stand in judgment for?? Right---none. He is already secure in the Lord in his innocence.

We baptise infants because we are commanded to baptise and teach all the world. We rely on the promises of God for our hope that baptised infants will grow up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. We hear the holy scriptures when they assure us that baptism washes away sins and saves those who are baptised.

 

[Full O Beans]

We baptise infants because we are commanded to baptise and teach all the world. We rely on the promises of God for our hope that baptised infants will grow up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. We hear the holy scriptures when they assure us that baptism washes away sins and saves those who are baptised.

We are commanded to make disciples, and to baptize THEM. Babies aren't believers or disciples.

We have a very real hope that our children will grow to follow Christ because we are raising them up in the knowledge of God, and holding to the promise that is ours and that belongs to our children according to the word. Nothing there about baptizing babies. You take it too far. That's what religion does to real faith...it sidetracks and distorts it. Baptism doesn't remove sin. We are baptized BECAUSE our sins have been removed.

 

[MoreCoffee]

We are commanded to make disciples, and to baptize THEM. Babies aren't believers or disciples.

We have a very real hope that our children will grow to follow Christ because we are raising them up in the knowledge of God, and holding to the promise that is ours and that belongs to our children according to the word. Nothing there about baptizing babies. You take it too far. That's what religion does to real faith...it sidetracks and distorts it.

We take the holy scriptures for what they truly are, the revelations of God given to his people and because we are his people we believe the holy scriptures when they teach us that baptism washes away sins and saves. What you do is up to you. We're not going to follow you whenever you wander off the path but we will call out to you and encourage you to return to the path.

 

[Full O Beans]

We take the holy scriptures for what they truly are, the revelations of God given to his people and because we are his people we believe the holy scriptures when they teach us that baptism washes away sins and saves. What you do is up to you. We're not going to follow you whenever you wander off the path but we will call out to you and encourage you to return to the path.

Indoctrination is a problem for followers of any religion that teaches this stuff. It is extra-biblical! the bible does not teach that the waters of baptism save or washes sins away. You cannot cherry pick scripture. You need to take the whole volume of the book about a subject and let Holy Spirit teach you what the truth is...not a religion.