Is it Gods will to Heal?

Josiah

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It always amazes me how people explain away that God wants to heal always.

It always amazes me how people explain away some folks going to hell when the Bible percisly says God wills ALL PEOPLE to be saved....

But then see post # 19




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psalms 91

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It always amazes me how people explain away some folks going to hell when the Bible percisly says God wills ALL PEOPLE to be saved....

But then see post # 19




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Simple it is a gift, a gift we can either accept or reject. It is Gods will that all be saved but we have the choice God does not and will not force Himself on us. We choose whether to accept the gift or reject it, God doesnt really send us to hell, we choose to go
 

Josiah

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Simple it is a gift, a gift we can either accept or reject. It is Gods will that all be saved but we have the choice God does not and will not force Himself on us. We choose whether to accept the gift or reject it, God doesnt really send us to hell, we choose to go

Well.... "free will" aside..... in this fallen world, there often ARE "conditions" or situations that God takes into account. THEREFORE, His primary/unconditional will and His secondary/conditional will are not the same. You are (in a way) just confirming my point. Does God will ALL PEOPLE to be saved? Yes - the Bible specifically, verbatim states that: it is God's primary will. But are therefore all people saved? No (as the Bible also specifically, verbatim states) because there is His secondary/conditional will: in this fallen world, Jesus' blood and Jesus' resurrection are conditions mandated.... and the gift of faith in that is mandated.... CONDITIONS are factored in. Thus, His primary will is that ALL are saved but His secondary will means that's not the case.
They are BOTH His will - but one is unconditional, one is conditional. This Primary and Secondary will (stuff we all learned in Sunday School) needs to be remembered. It applies to all of His will. Including the one being discussed here. IF it was true that ONLY primary will existed, then yes - there would be no sickness, no death - healing would be constant, insured. But there IS sickness and indeed EVERYONE eventually dies - typically from something God did NOT heal (at least physicially). The reality of death means God's primary will here is not the only factor, there is secondary will at work here too.





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Brighten04

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It always amazes me how people explain away that God wants to heal always.

Well, I can agree to a point with what Josiah said.And we know that healing comes in the salvation package. The point is faith. Everything is obtained by faith. So there is a condition, and that is faith for healing must be present. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.Lord Jesus frequently asked people He healed if they believed He could/would heal them or their loved one. And He also told people that it was their faith that had made them whole. So Josiah is right with regard to conditional healing. One has to believe that our Father wants them healed. They have to believe that it is the Glory of God for them to be healed.
 

Josiah

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Well, I can agree to a point with what Josiah said.And we know that healing comes in the salvation package. The point is faith. Everything is obtained by faith. So there is a condition, and that is faith for healing must be present. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.Lord Jesus frequently asked people He healed if they believed He could/would heal them or their loved one. And He also told people that it was their faith that had made them whole. So Josiah is right with regard to conditional healing. One has to believe that our Father wants them healed. They have to believe that it is the Glory of God for them to be healed.

Thank you. But keep in mind: most people healed are not Christians. I know of no evidence that the world's 5.0 billion non-Christians are never healed, or that the world's 2.2 billion Christians are always healed, never are sick, never die. While faith perhaps is something taken into account (and prayer and.....) I'm not sure it's THAT simple. God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust ALIKE, Scripture proclaims. God's love is UNCONDITIONAL, the Bible states.

But you and I agree on a very basic point we all learned in Sunday School. God's primary and secondary will are not identical in this fallen, broken world (they will be in heaven!). IF they were, Adam and Eve would still be in the Garden, there would be no evil, no injustice, no pain, no sin, no illness, no death - all are contrary to His primary (unconditional) will. LOTS of stuff happens that breaks God's heart, that violates His primary will. I think the whole premise of the op forgets this.




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psalms 91

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Thank you. But keep in mind: most people healed are not Christians. I know of no evidence that the world's 5.0 billion non-Christians are never healed, or that the world's 2.2 billion Christians are always healed, never are sick, never die. While faith perhaps is something taken into account (and prayer and.....) I'm not sure it's THAT simple. God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust ALIKE, Scripture proclaims. God's love is UNCONDITIONAL, the Bible states.

But you and I agree on a very basic point we all learned in Sunday School. God's primary and secondary will are not identical in this fallen, broken world (they will be in heaven!). IF they were, Adam and Eve would still be in the Garden, there would be no evil, no injustice, no pain, no sin, no illness, no death - all are contrary to His primary (unconditional) will. LOTS of stuff happens that breaks God's heart, that violates His primary will. I think the whole premise of the op forgets this.




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Called free will
 

Brighten04

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Thank you. But keep in mind: most people healed are not Christians. I know of no evidence that the world's 5.0 billion non-Christians are never healed, or that the world's 2.2 billion Christians are always healed, never are sick, never die. While faith perhaps is something taken into account (and prayer and.....) I'm not sure it's THAT simple. God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust ALIKE, Scripture proclaims. God's love is UNCONDITIONAL, the Bible states.

But you and I agree on a very basic point we all learned in Sunday School. God's primary and secondary will are not identical in this fallen, broken world (they will be in heaven!). IF they were, Adam and Eve would still be in the Garden, there would be no evil, no injustice, no pain, no sin, no illness, no death - all are contrary to His primary (unconditional) will. LOTS of stuff happens that breaks God's heart, that violates His primary will. I think the whole premise of the op forgets this.




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God's will is that all be saved, but all are not saved. God's will is that all prosper and be in health. But, all are not prosperous and all are not in health. So what is wrong? We have to learn how to believe God. It is as simple as that. People/Christians do not believe God for everything. It is sad but it is true. People pray and ask G0d to heal, then they nullify the prayer by tacking on "If it is your will". We have God's will in His word.His will is to heal all of the time, but healing comes by faith. People confuse mental assent with faith, and they are two different things. People mentally say they believe the word of God, but, people do not act on it in faith. You cannot receive what you cannot believe.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Your thoughts are substance. Your words are substance. So that says that believing and saying manifests as healing. If you are speaking unbelief, how will healing manifest? So that is why I said God's always wills to heal all the time but faith is the conditional aspect of the manifestation.
 
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Josiah

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God's will is that all be saved, but all are not saved. God's will is that all prosper and be in health. But, all are not prosperous and all are not in health. So what is wrong. We have to learn how to believe God. It is as simple as that. People/Christians do not believe God for everything. It is sad but it is true. People pray and ask G0d to heal, then they nullify the prayer by tacking on "If it is your will". We have God's will in His word.His will is to heal all of the time, but healing comes by faith. People confuse mental assent with faith, and they are two different things. People mentally say they believe the word of God, but, people do not act on it in faith. You cannot receive what you cannot believe.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Your thoughts are substance. Your words are substance. So that says that believing and saying manifests as healing. If you are speaking unbelief, how will healing manifest? So that is why I said God's always wills to heal all the time but faith is the conditional aspect of the manifestation.


I see your point, but I respecfully disagree - at least with the extended premise. After all, MOST people who are healed don't believe at all. And a LOT of people who aren't healed and thus die DO believe. Yes - things IN US are likely FACTORS (and I'd include our faith - even prayers of OTHERS) but that in and of itself doesn't support the premise. Again, some are healed who don't believe AT ALL, don't pray AT ALL. And some who believe are NOT healed (ultimately, all of them!), some prayed for are NOT healed (ultimately, all of them since all die). And remember: God's love is UNCONDITIONAL. God may operate out of PURE MERCY.

But I think you are I are agreeing on the foundational point: God's primary and secondary will are NOT the same.... not in this fallen, broken, sinfull world. IF they always were the same, Adam and Eve would still be in the Garden.... evil would not exist.... there would be no sin, no pain, no wrong, no sickness, no death since God doesn't WILL (primary) any of those things. The problem with the op is the assumption that God's primary will always happens. Not here..... not now.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah
 

Brighten04

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I see your point, but I respecfully disagree - at least with the extended premise. After all, MOST people who are healed don't believe at all. And a LOT of people who aren't healed and thus die DO believe. Yes - things IN US are likely FACTORS (and I'd include our faith - even prayers of OTHERS) but that in and of itself doesn't support the premise. Again, some are healed who don't believe AT ALL, don't pray AT ALL. And some who believe are NOT healed (ultimately, all of them!), some prayed for are NOT healed (ultimately, all of them since all die). And remember: God's love is UNCONDITIONAL. God may operate out of PURE MERCY.

Thank you. I think we agree more than we disagree. :) Yes there are cases where people who are not believers get healed. But they do present themselves for healing, and God sees that act as faith.My cousin is a pastor and he remarks about how people come in off the street who are not believers, he pray for them and they are healed instantly while believers who are in church every time the doors are open don't receive healing. But, I digress.
 

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its Gods will to Heal

he then tells who to do so ?

US ..
why are so many more not healed then.. because "we " are not doing what we have been told to do .

if a person is not healed when "I" pray for then that is a lack in my faith and its activation ..it is not a lack in them - i assure people this is the case ..
so what do we do if someone doesnt get healed ?(and yes christians are sometimes more difficult when it comes to healing ,they are often bound up in layers of religiosity theory theology and demons )whereas the non chrsitian are often more open and unhindered in receiving.

so what do we do if someone doesnt get healed...? we go find a person with even greater faith then our own to disciple us how .
in james it says "call for the elders " ..but in that setting who were the elders seeing that the church over all was incredibly young ? simply people who had been praying and laying hands on folks for healing for longer then you have yourself .. they are elder in experience .. not years bible training seminar ..but hands on experience .. and these folks with more developed faith then come and lay hands on them and pray and the person gets healed -

what DONT we do when someone doesn't get healed when "I " pray . ? we DO NOT discredit the word of truth by making up a theology based on what did not happen and in opposition to the word of God . we DO NOT go looking for "reasons ' .. we already have the reason ..- our own faith is not developed enough yet .. so keep doing it ! so that it can develope .

the lord JEsus showed this when the deciples could not cast a evil spirit out .. -he did not ask the man if he had someone he needed to forgive ,he did not look for some genetic trait he did not look for some heredity issue ...instead .. he told the deciples off for .."their lack of faith " and then he went and cast it out .so displaying it was "none " of the other excuses we often drag up .. but only lack of faith in "us"
 

Brighten04

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its Gods will to Heal

he then tells who to do so ?

US ..
why are so many more not healed then.. because "we " are not doing what we have been told to do .

if a person is not healed when "I" pray for then that is a lack in my faith and its activation ..it is not a lack in them - i assure people this is the case ..
so what do we do if someone doesnt get healed ?(and yes christians are sometimes more difficult when it comes to healing ,they are often bound up in layers of religiosity theory theology and demons )whereas the non chrsitian are often more open and unhindered in receiving.

so what do we do if someone doesnt get healed...? we go find a person with even greater faith then our own to disciple us how .
in james it says "call for the elders " ..but in that setting who were the elders seeing that the church over all was incredibly young ? simply people who had been praying and laying hands on folks for healing for longer then you have yourself .. they are elder in experience .. not years bible training seminar ..but hands on experience .. and these folks with more developed faith then come and lay hands on them and pray and the person gets healed -

what DONT we do when someone doesn't get healed when "I " pray . ? we DO NOT discredit the word of truth by making up a theology based on what did not happen and in opposition to the word of God . we DO NOT go looking for "reasons ' .. we already have the reason ..- our own faith is not developed enough yet .. so keep doing it ! so that it can develope .

the lord JEsus showed this when the deciples could not cast a evil spirit out .. -he did not ask the man if he had someone he needed to forgive ,he did not look for some genetic trait he did not look for some heredity issue ...instead .. he told the deciples off for .."their lack of faith " and then he went and cast it out .so displaying it was "none " of the other excuses we often drag up .. but only lack of faith in "us"

I agree that faith is the key to healing. But if you remember when Lord Jesus was healing, sometimes he would not allow too many people around. Look at this.

Luke 8:41 And, behold, there came a man named Jairus, and he was a ruler of the synagogue: and he fell down at Jesus' feet, and besought him that he would come into his house:

42 For he had one only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she lay a dying. But as he went the people thronged him.

Luke 8:49 While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.

50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.

51 And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden.

52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.

53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.

54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.

55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

56 And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.

See here you can see where Jesus would not perform in the presence of unbelief. The crowd was with him but there those there that did not believe, so Jesus just made them stay out doors.He told the parents, in so many words, "hold on to your faith". when he told them to fear not, believe only and she shall be made whole. However, there was a crowd there at the healing of the woman with the issue of blood. So, how could she be healed in a crowd? She could be healed because she was just doing what all the others were doing and nobody knew her problem except her. That is why Lord Jesus told her that that her faith had made her whole. Well you might say that others were touching Him and they were not made whole. There goes your unbelief. I am sure some in the crowd said the same thing. "I touched Him first, how come I didn't get healed?" Yeah we see the same thing happening today. They were probably part of the crowd laughing Lord Jesus to scorn.
 

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I agree that faith is the key to healing. But if you remember when Lord Jesus was healing, sometimes he would not allow too many people around. Look at this.

Luke 8:41 And, behold, there came a man named Jairus, and he was a ruler of the synagogue: and he fell down at Jesus' feet, and besought him that he would come into his house:

42 For he had one only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she lay a dying. But as he went the people thronged him.

Luke 8:49 While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.

50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.

51 And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden.

52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.

53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.

54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.

55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

56 And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.

See here you can see where Jesus would not perform in the presence of unbelief. The crowd was with him but there those there that did not believe, so Jesus just made them stay out doors.He told the parents, in so many words, "hold on to your faith". when he told them to fear not, believe only and she shall be made whole. However, there was a crowd there at the healing of the woman with the issue of blood. So, how could she be healed in a crowd? She could be healed because she was just doing what all the others were doing and nobody knew her problem except her. That is why Lord Jesus told her that that her faith had made her whole. Well you might say that others were touching Him and they were not made whole. There goes your unbelief. I am sure some in the crowd said the same thing. "I touched Him first, how come I didn't get healed?" Yeah we see the same thing happening today. They were probably part of the crowd laughing Lord Jesus to scorn.

im sure there were ..well its says there were lol..

though it doesnt change his will to heal .. it says also..in his home town he did not do many miracles because f thier unbelief ....BUT>> ALL who came to him or were brought to him by others were healed .
so i guess we see here that unbelief causes separation.. becaseu of thier unbelief they would not COME to him ..but those that did come .. got healed .

i apologize of i lost the flow of the discussion a bit there .

but we do see the effect of unbelief is fear to come to him ? perhaps ..fear of what wont happen instead of expectation of what will ?
and in the reverse - we can pray for the sick like that also..im guilty of it often ..:( thats is to say ..i pray in fear of what won't happen and when it doesnt, i go away dejected, because i knew it wouldn't happen .. ouhh DOH methinks to self .. i got exactly what i believed for then..

hmmmmmmmmm iv just seen something about me im now not liking and in need of repentance ..
the words says "fear of man ifs a a snare " fear and unbelief are very entwined .

praying in fear is praying the prayer of unbelief ... thats not faith . ... -(im just thinking aloud here - i do that sometimes during learning curves )
 

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m sure there were ..well its says there were lol..

though it doesnt change his will to heal .. it says also..in his home town he did not do many miracles because f thier unbelief ....BUT>> ALL who came to him or were brought to him by others were healed .
so i guess we see here that unbelief causes separation.. becaseu of thier unbelief they would not COME to him ..but those that did come .. got healed .

Amen! God's will is always to heal. . In His home town of Nazareth,They did not honor Him or believe in Him because they were too familiar with Him. Therefore we can take a lesson here to know that those who are very familiar with you just might not be able to receive healing from you because of their unbelief. They will mentally assent to being prayed for, but faith/belief comes from the heart. A confession from a lady (nurse) I worked at the hospital was confessing about her lack of faith. What she said was very genuine and heart felt. She said she struggled getting it from her head to her heart. I had never looked at it that way but she was right. I discovered I had the same problem.

but we do see the effect of unbelief is fear to come to him ? perhaps ..fear of what wont happen instead of expectation of what will ?
and in the reverse - we can pray for the sick like that also..im guilty of it often .. thats is to say ..i pray in fear of what won't happen and when it doesnt, i go away dejected, because i knew it wouldn't happen .. ouhh DOH methinks to self .. i got exactly what i believed for then..

Christians today Get offended when someone say their faith is weak, but Jesus told His apostles that they had little faith when they could not cast out a demon.
They didn't get angry, they made the necessary adjustment. My pastor preached a sermon one time called Make The Necessary Adjustment. The Word of God is true...All of it. But we who administer it must believe it AND the recipients do too. I have seen lots of miracles in healing.

hmmmmmmmmm iv just seen something about me im now not liking and in need of repentance ..
the words says "fear of man ifs a a snare " fear and unbelief are very entwined .

praying in fear is praying the prayer of unbelief ... thats not faith . ... -(im just thinking aloud here - i do that sometimes during learning curves )

I think we all lose sight of who we are in Christ sometimes. Apostle Paul even said that he had not apprehended that which apprehended him. LOL. I can say amen to that. There is always a new facet to knowing how to be in Christ. We know Him, and believe He saved us and that we are in Him. But discovering who WE are in Him is a lifelong adventure in discovery. We have to learn how to be like Him which is really God's plan for us. That is what Apostle Paul was talking about when he said work out your salvation in fear and trembling. Lord Jesus said we are the salt of the Earth and that we are the light of the world. Our salvation is within us, we just need to get the salt out of the salt shaker and the lamp up on the shelf. LOL. Just grab hold of the promises of God and say to yourself loudly "self you are going to believe this word right here." That is what I do. LOL. Believe me, it is a mighty task to drive out all of the unbelief that has been programmed into us by the world we live in. Did you know that sickness has been programmed in us? I see people bragging on sickness. I tell the to stop courting the spirit of infirmity! I'm digressing again. LOL.
 

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you digressed onto an excellent topic though .

i recall years back i had sinus (face cold ) issue for years ..and for years i moaned about it and suffered it and expected it believed in it had full faith i would get it over and over again - and did

i know many like that -then one day i asked for healing .. at first it seemed as if nothing happened .but then i began to cast down the symptoms and thank god for gis healing..regardless og the symptoms.

and odd thing happened ...a few months later i realised i has less and less issues with sinus problems ..
that many years back .theses days i don't have sinus problems at all .
 

Brighten04

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you digressed onto an excellent topic though .

i recall years back i had sinus (face cold ) issue for years ..and for years i moaned about it and suffered it and expected it believed in it had full faith i would get it over and over again - and did

i know many like that -then one day i asked for healing .. at first it seemed as if nothing happened .but then i began to cast down the symptoms and thank god for gis healing..regardless og the symptoms.

and odd thing happened ...a few months later i realised i has less and less issues with sinus problems ..
that many years back .theses days i don't have sinus problems at all .

Praise God for your healing brother. I am glad to know how your sinus problem was healed.
 

Alithis

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Praise God for your healing brother. I am glad to know how your sinus problem was healed.

:d that was but a beginning .. ..since that time i have grown and learned to see many healings and not accept illness .

rushed for time at present, but this is where i like to quote wigglesworth ... "Only believe " !
 
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