Is any error cpable of separating one from God?

MoreCoffee

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Saint Peter says: As there were false prophets in the past history of our people, so you too will have your false teachers, who will insinuate their own disruptive views and, by disowning the Lord who bought them freedom, will bring upon themselves speedy destruction. Many will copy their debauched behaviour, and the Way of Truth will be brought into disrepute on their account. In their greed they will try to make a profit out of you with untrue tales. But the judgement made upon them long ago is not idle, and the destruction awaiting them is for ever on the watch. When angels sinned, God did not spare them: he sent them down into the underworld and consigned them to the dark abyss to be held there until the Judgement. He did not spare the world in ancient times: he saved only Noah, the preacher of uprightness, along with seven others, when he sent the Flood over a world of sinners. He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by reducing them to ashes as a warning to future sinners; but rescued Lot, an upright man who had been sickened by the debauched way in which these vile people behaved- for that upright man, living among them, was outraged in his upright soul by the crimes that he saw and heard every day. All this shows that the Lord is well able to rescue the good from their trials, and hold the wicked for their punishment until the Day of Judgement, especially those who follow the desires of their corrupt human nature and have no respect for the Lord's authority. Such self-willed people with no reverence are not afraid of offending against the glorious ones, but the angels in their greater strength and power make no complaint or accusation against them in the Lord's presence. But these people speak evil of what they do not understand; they are like brute beasts, born only to be caught and killed, and like beasts they will be destroyed, being injured in return for the injuries they have inflicted. Debauchery even by day they make their pleasure; they are unsightly blots, and amuse themselves by their trickery even when they are sharing your table; with their eyes always looking for adultery, people with an insatiable capacity for sinning, they will seduce any but the most stable soul. Where greed is concerned they are at their peak of fitness. They are under a curse. They have left the right path and wandered off to follow the path of Balaam son of Bosor, who set his heart on a dishonest reward, but soon had his fault pointed out to him: a dumb beast of burden, speaking with a human voice, put a stop to the madness of the prophet. People like this are dried-up springs, fogs swirling in the wind, and the gloom of darkness is stored up for them. With their high-sounding but empty talk they tempt back people who have scarcely escaped from those who live in error, by playing on the disordered desires of their human nature and by debaucheries. They may promise freedom but are themselves slaves to corruption; because if anyone lets himself be dominated by anything, then he is a slave to it; and anyone who has escaped the pollution of the world by coming to know our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and who then allows himself to be entangled and mastered by it a second time, ends up by being worse than he was before. It would have been better for them never to have learnt the way of uprightness, than to learn it and then desert the holy commandment that was entrusted to them. What they have done is exactly as the proverb rightly says: The dog goes back to its vomit and: As soon as the sow has been washed, it wallows in the mud. (2 Peter 2:1-22)
 

Full O Beans

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Sin in a Christian's life always separates him from fellowship with God, but it doesn't condemn him. When we have received Jesus Christ as personal Saviour and Lord, we know He has done as He has promised---forgiven us for ALL our sins---past, present and future---all in one moment on the cross.
 

MoreCoffee

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Sin in a Christian's life always separates him from fellowship with God, but it doesn't condemn him. When we have received Jesus Christ as personal Saviour and Lord, we know He has done as He has promised---forgiven us for ALL our sins---past, present and future---all in one moment on the cross.

How do you account for saint Peter's words? I quoted them in the first post.
 

Full O Beans

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People who take advantage of the gospel message and live lives of sin still, are not saved people. They are wolves in sheep's clothing and are living condemned already.
 

MoreCoffee

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People who take advantage of the gospel message and live lives of sin still, are not saved people. They are wolves in sheep's clothing and are living condemned already.

What do you make of this passage?

Let us leave behind us then all the elementary teaching about Christ and go on to its completion, without going over the fundamental doctrines again: the turning away from dead actions, faith in God, the teaching about baptisms and the laying -- on of hands, about the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgement. This, God willing, is what we propose to do. As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the goodness of God's message and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away -- it is impossible for them to be brought to the freshness of repentance a second time, since they are crucifying the Son of God again for themselves, and making a public exhibition of him. A field that drinks up the rain that has fallen frequently on it, and yields the crops that are wanted by the owners who grew them, receives God's blessing; but one that grows brambles and thistles is worthless, and near to being cursed. It will end by being burnt.
(Hebrews 6:1-8)
 

Full O Beans

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What do you make of this passage?

Let us leave behind us then all the elementary teaching about Christ and go on to its completion, without going over the fundamental doctrines again: the turning away from dead actions, faith in God, the teaching about baptisms and the laying -- on of hands, about the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgement. This, God willing, is what we propose to do. As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the goodness of God's message and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away -- it is impossible for them to be brought to the freshness of repentance a second time, since they are crucifying the Son of God again for themselves, and making a public exhibition of him. A field that drinks up the rain that has fallen frequently on it, and yields the crops that are wanted by the owners who grew them, receives God's blessing; but one that grows brambles and thistles is worthless, and near to being cursed. It will end by being burnt.
(Hebrews 6:1-8)

It's a warning. A useless field of crops that only yields brambles is destined for trouble. The good farmer will burn it and replant the soil with something else. Useless Christians, who have been dissipated by the call of the world and influenced by error have become useless to the Kingdom. They are always being called to return to God and to repent. There is no other message of repentance for them. It's the same one as always. "Near to being cursed" is not cursed. God as our adopted Father doesn't renege on His adoptions.
 

psalms 91

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It's a warning. A useless field of crops that only yields brambles is destined for trouble. The good farmer will burn it and replant the soil with something else. Useless Christians, who have been dissipated by the call of the world and influenced by error have become useless to the Kingdom. They are always being called to return to God and to repent. There is no other message of repentance for them. It's the same one as always. "Near to being cursed" is not cursed. God as our adopted Father doesn't renege on His adoptions.
They are also lost, they will not enter heaven if they are in this state
 

Full O Beans

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They are also lost, they will not enter heaven if they are in this state

If they have truly known the Saviour, they are not lost, but they will have forfeited much reward. But I believe that this is a passage referring to unregenerated people, who have only given a mental assent to the gospel message and have not experienced Jesus Christ and spiritual regeneration that comes from knowing Him personally.

It is a debatable passage, and that is my understanding of it, for I know that God will not suffer the loss of any of His own.
 

psalms 91

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If they have truly known the Saviour, they are not lost, but they will have forfeited much reward. But I believe that this is a passage referring to unregenerated people, who have only given a mental assent to the gospel message and have not experienced Jesus Christ and spiritual regeneration that comes from knowing Him personally.

It is a debatable passage, and that is my understanding of it, for I know that God will not suffer the loss of any of His own.
As you say it cna be debated but I take it as those who have known and fallen away
 

MoreCoffee

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If they have truly known the Saviour, they are not lost, but they will have forfeited much reward. But I believe that this is a passage referring to unregenerated people, who have only given a mental assent to the gospel message and have not experienced Jesus Christ and spiritual regeneration that comes from knowing Him personally.

It is a debatable passage, and that is my understanding of it, for I know that God will not suffer the loss of any of His own.

Un-regenerate people (that'd be people who are not and never have been Christians) were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the goodness of God's message and the powers of the world to come?
 

Ruth

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I take Jesus Christ's teaching metaphorically and not literally. It seems to me like an intelligent thing to do.
 

MoreCoffee

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I take Jesus Christ's teaching metaphorically and not literally. It seems to me like an intelligent thing to do.

Seems like a very convenient way of changing what he taught.
 

Ruth

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Seems like a very convenient way of changing what he taught.

No, how do you know how he meant it? He may have meant it metaphorically. For example: Spare the rod, spoil the child. Does not mean to beat our children with a rod but to have discipline. I am not changing what he taught. You need to open your mind to be able to see the real truth. Or is that more convenient for you to take the easy way out rather than look at it intellectually?
 

Full O Beans

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Un-regenerate people (that'd be people who are not and never have been Christians) were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the goodness of God's message and the powers of the world to come?

Yes, almost every church has members of this type. They are called "tares". They enjoy and share in many of the blessings that come upon the true believers, and go unnoticed as unbelievers. Some are even husbands and wives of unbelievers. Some are their children.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Yes, almost every church have members of this type. They are called "tares". They enjoy and share in many of the blessings that come upon the true believers, and go unnoticed as unbelievers. Some are even husbands and wives of unbelievers. Some are their children.

Oh, so these un-regenerates are church people. Not just your average Joe on the street who happens to be un-regenerate? These guys need to be church people who attend regularly, speak in tongues, and clap hands and dance while the obligatory choruses are sung? A special class of heathen who thinks he/she is a christian but really isn't. Won't he/she be surprised when their experiences of being brought into the light, and tasting the gift from heaven, and receiving a share of the Holy Spirit, and tasting the goodness of God's message and the powers of the world to come all fall apart and they get rejected from heaven while the other folk who are apostates but were once truly converted - as you suggested - get in despite a life of abject wickedness. But maybe the apostates have a death bed reconversion or something? It's all rather fascinating to read about. Not at all how the bible passage puts it. I reckon you interpret with quite a lot of dogma and doctrine between you and the text.
 

Full O Beans

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Oh, so these un-regenerates are church people. Not just your average Joe on the street who happens to be un-regenerate? These guys need to be church people who attend regularly, speak in tongues, and clap hands and dance while the obligatory choruses are sung? A special class of heathen who thinks he/she is a christian but really isn't. Won't he/she be surprised when their experiences of being brought into the light, and tasting the gift from heaven, and receiving a share of the Holy Spirit, and tasting the goodness of God's message and the powers of the world to come all fall apart and they get rejected from heaven while the other folk who are apostates but were once truly converted - as you suggested - get in despite a life of abject wickedness. But maybe the apostates have a death bed reconversion or something? It's all rather fascinating to read about. Not at all how the bible passage puts it. I reckon you interpret with quite a lot of dogma and doctrine between you and the text.

Yes, surprised, indeed! Read here for your edification:

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 22 On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ 23 But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’
 

MoreCoffee

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Yes, surprised, indeed! Read here for your edification:

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 22 On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ 23 But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’

Okay, so people who say Lord Lord! are in trouble but the folk who lie, steal, murder,and so forth are okay if they once believed "truly", right?
 

Full O Beans

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Okay, so people who say Lord Lord! are in trouble but the folk who lie, steal, murder,and so forth are okay if they once believed "truly", right?
I am not the judge. God will do that perfectly. People who are truly born again do not live lives marked by consistent sinning. Their lives are marked by righteousness and good fruit.
 

Josiah

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Where I have a problem is when self exempts self from accountability. Such as the RC Denomination does (CCC 87, etc). Like the LDS does. Like all the "cults" known to me do. IMO, unless one IS God, one CAN err. And thus separate us - from truth, from God and likely from each other.

I hold to a corporate view of Christianity, not an individualistic one (this is a chief reason why I left the RCC). Pardon the grammar, but it's not Jesus and ME, it's Jesus and WE (with "ME" here meaning any one denomination, teacher, church, sect or person). To quote Lincoln (I think) one can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time. But it's harder, IMO, to fool God's people ALL of the time. I'm truly sad that Rome's OBSESSION with power, centrality, individualism, unaccountability took over much of Christianity, many centuries before Luther was born. For at least 1500 years, we've had a MESS - a very Roman, power-obessed, individualistic, institutional mess. And while the Reformers decried this, they didn't help much. IMO, what we need is a return to a sense of community, humility, accountability (the antithesis of what Rome did to us beginning in the 4th Century). We have 1500 years of the antithesis to undo. Ain't going to be easy. Meanwhile, I think the institutional church is dying as people are taking this Roman, Individualistic view to it's logical conclusion: there are as many churches as there are people, with each unaccountable and infallible, each speaking for Jesus. The RCC times 2.2 billion (and declining). IMO, we'd better rediscover some sense of humility, community, love, service, US..... or....



- Josiah
 

MoreCoffee

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I am not the judge. God will do that perfectly. People who are truly born again do not live lives marked by consistent sinning. Their lives are marked by righteousness and good fruit.

So exactly how does your stated doctrine differ from the doctrine of a chap who says that one is not finally saved until one's Earthly life is completed and one has lived that life in a way that is consistent with the gospel call to live free from wilful sins and false teachings? Or are you saying that you just don't know what will become of people who once truly believed but who depart and live a worldly life?
 
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