Birth control

[MoreCoffee]

Lol! You don't know any, then. You judge poorly.

The holy scriptures teach that procreation is one of the reasons for marriage and never advocate the use of artificial means of preventing procreation so until you can pony up the verses to support your ungodly teaching I am not going to follow it. So much of what you teach is worldly opinion.

 

[Full O Beans]

You advocate using artificial birth control do you not? You said it is a matter of choice. You dressed it up in pious words about God but God never advocates using artificial birth control. Your teaching is not biblical. I will not follow it.

I advocate the use of godly wisdom in godly marriages. The protection from pregnancy is a private issue and misguided people seem to want to infiltrate that sanctity and force a vile intention on them.

 

[Full O Beans]

The holy scriptures do have a say if they are godly but I suspect that the folk who follow your teaching are not godly.

All who closely follow Jesus Christ and know the word, me included, are godly.

 

[Josiah]

The holy scriptures teach that procreation is one of the reasons for marriage

Yet the RC Denomination is now quite obsessed with teaching couples how to HAVE sex albeit CONTRACEPTIVELY, so that all that fun sex will be unlikely to result in procreation, conception, a child, a baby, LIFE. That denomination is - by far - the world's largest, boldest, foremost religious advocate, promoter and teacher of contraceptive sex and birth control in the world.


Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yet the RC ...

Another rant against the Catholic Church. Oh dear. You really do have a great deal of difficulty sticking to the topic without injecting personal views about the Catholic Church. The topic is birth control not how much you dislike this or that thing that the Catholic Church teaches. I'd ask you to desist but I do not think you would so I won't bother.

 

[Josiah]

Another rant against the Catholic Church. Oh dear.

Obviously, I did not - in any way - rebuke or condemn or critized or even opinionate about the RCC's promotion of birth control. Maybe you feel guilty about your denomination's stance and have imputed YOUR feelings on me? But friend, OBVIOUSLY I never said a single word in this thread against the RCC or any other denomiation. I have not said a single word against anything or anyone in this thread. Oh, dear.... how you "see" invisible, non-existent things and then choose to feel hurt by what you imputed.

The topic is birth control

And the reality is that your denomination is - by far - the world's largest, foremost, boldest religious advocate, promoter and teacher of such in the entire world. That's just the reality. I made NO value judgments about that (as all know), I didn't REMOTELY indicate if I agree or disagree with your denomination.... I just stated an objectively reality. That you are angered and offended by this reality concerning your denomination may be very telling but I'm not Dr. Phil and I refrain from psychological evaluations, lol.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

Josiah, I saw you rant against Catholic teaching in many threads before so seeing it again in this thread is expected. For the most part I think your anti-Catholicism posts are poor use of time and bandwidth. But you seem unwilling to stop. Let's stick to the topic of birth control and leave the speeches about how you feel about Catholic lay teaching on fertility and family.

 

[Josiah]

seeing it again in this thread

As is obvious and clear to all, there is no "rant" from me about your denomination in this thread. NOT ONCE did I remotely state or even imply any judgment. NOT ONCE did I state or remotely even imply any disagreement (or agreement), any view whatsoever. So whatever it is you "saw" is purely your own invention, your own created phantom.... and we are left wondering why you would choose to be hurt or offended by something YOU created, invented, imputed.

Let's stick to the topic of birth control

I did. I stated a reality you've not even disputed (no one has)... that your denomination now is by far the world's largest, foremost, boldest religious teacher, advocate and promoter of birth control and contraceptive sex in the world. Indeed, it is the only one (known to me) that actually conducts extensive classes in it at many of it's locally owned and operated parishes. My own sister was REQUIRED to learn how to have contraceptive sex, how to do birth control before she and her guy could be married in the parish.

how you feel about Catholic

Obviously, I've not said a WORD about how I 'feel' on this topic..... regarding the RC Denomination's promoting or otherwise. You seem to be imputing YOUR concerns on others?




Pax


- Josiah

 

[tango]

You advocate using artificial birth control do you not? You said it is a matter of choice. You dressed it up in pious words about God but God never advocates using artificial birth control. Your teaching is not biblical. I will not follow it.

Does God prohibit artificial birth control?

God never clearly advocated using the internet, driving cars or wearing blue shirts with green pants on a Thursday. It's no good to regard something as prohibited because it isn't explicitly allowed. If you want to claim that something is prohibited you really need something that's either explicit or clearly related (e.g. the Bible doesn't explicitly say not to download porn from the internet but it doesn't take a genius to figure what Jesus said about adultery would apply there).

 

[Lamb]

Does God prohibit artificial birth control?

I don't know. But I guess the issue that is always brought up is how much do you trust God to lead your life? That's what I've heard from people who refuse to use it.

 

[Josiah]

I don't know. But I guess the issue that is always brought up is how much do you trust God to lead your life? That's what I've heard from people who refuse to use it.

Of course, one could step out in front of a speeding train - and declare their action proof of their trust in God. Frankly, I think it's just proof of irresponsibility.

 

[Lamb]

Of course, one could step out in front of a speeding train - and declare their action proof of their trust in God. Frankly, I think it's just proof of irresponsibility.

LOL Good point.

I was the product of birth control not working. God's will be done.

 

[Josiah]

I don't know. But I guess the issue that is always brought up is how much do you trust God to lead your life? That's what I've heard from people who refuse to use it.

Of course, one could step out in front of a speeding train - and declare their action proof of their trust in God. Frankly, I think that's just proof of irresponsibility. Luke 4:12 comes to mind. It's one thing to trust God's loving care.... another to purposely act irresponsibly and then mandate that God makes it all good?

I'm ONLY noting the irony that often those that are most against birth control and contraceptive sex are fundamentalist members of the RCC - which is, of course, by far, the largest, boldest, foremost religious advocate, promoter and teacher of such in the entire world. My sister and her (now) husband were REQUIRED to take a class to learn how to have contraceptive sex and do birth control before they were permitted to be married in an RCC owned/operated parish.

One of my Catholic teachers (a lady probably in her late 70's) told me that before the sexual revolution of the 1960's, the common counsel in the RCC was that couples that should not conceive thus should not have sex (ever) - simply be sexless, a sexless marriage. This, she told me, was never official teaching but what all the priests said. But, in the sexual revolution, this became rejected counsel. And so the RCC finally accepted birth control and having sex contraceptively - but came up with it's own recommended technique for that. I wasn't alive then.... I just know the RCC is the largest, foremost, boldest, loudest religious promoter and teacher of birth control and contraceptive sex in the world.




.

 

[Ruth]

The holy scriptures do have a say if they are godly but I suspect that the folk who follow your teaching are not godly.

You are so insulting! I think I am going to put you on my ignore list just because you are not a reasonable person to talk with. Glad to get rid of your posts.

 

[tango]

I don't know. But I guess the issue that is always brought up is how much do you trust God to lead your life? That's what I've heard from people who refuse to use it.

If people choose not to use it I have no problem with that. If someone feels a personal conviction to do something, or not do something, that's for them to decide. What I have an issue with is when people declare something to be universally mandated or universally prohibited, when they can't point to a clear Scriptural instruction that makes it so.

"A clear Scriptural instruction" doesn't necessarily mean a chapter and verse that says "Thou shalt not" because there are all sorts of inappropriate behaviors that wouldn't have been explicitly prohibited. The example I always use is internet porn - you won't find any verse that explicitly says it's bad but it's not hard to conclude from what Jesus said about adultery that it's a no-no.

In the absence of a clear Scriptural requirement to avoid something I'd say it's a matter of personal conviction. I don't see a problem with it, and the thinly veiled (and sometimes less thinly veiled) suggestions that I'm somehow "not trusting God" are little more than a guilt trip to try and force an issue. It's particularly funny when the person using that line goes to work for a living, thereby not trusting God to provide for them the way he provides for the birds of the field.

 

[Josiah]

If people choose not to use it I have no problem with that. If someone feels a personal conviction to do something, or not do something, that's for them to decide. What I have an issue with is when people declare something to be universally mandated or universally prohibited, when they can't point to a clear Scriptural instruction that makes it so.

"A clear Scriptural instruction" doesn't necessarily mean a chapter and verse that says "Thou shalt not" because there are all sorts of inappropriate behaviors that wouldn't have been explicitly prohibited. The example I always use is internet porn - you won't find any verse that explicitly says it's bad but it's not hard to conclude from what Jesus said about adultery that it's a no-no.

In the absence of a clear Scriptural requirement to avoid something I'd say it's a matter of personal conviction. I don't see a problem with it, and the thinly veiled (and sometimes less thinly veiled) suggestions that I'm somehow "not trusting God" are little more than a guilt trip to try and force an issue. It's particularly funny when the person using that line goes to work for a living, thereby not trusting God to provide for them the way he provides for the birds of the field.

Much wisdom there....

Personally, I don't think Scripture addresses contraceptive sex and birth control - directly or indirectly. Yes, couples should pray and carefully consider this.... and yes, listen to the corpus of Christians.... but ultimately, I think you have a point. Where I tend to weigh in is on those birth control techniques where life is exterminated - there I think Scripture does speak (one of the Big Ten is about killing). The RCC's new birth control method of contraceptive sex meets that criteria in MY opinion - but then so does using condoms and several other methods. And I agree with the modern RC Denomination that couples that should not conceive certainly may (I'd say should) continue to have sex; reproduction not being its only purpose.



Sorry.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[tango]

Much wisdom there....

Personally, I don't think Scripture addresses contraceptive sex and birth control - directly or indirectly. Yes, couples should pray and carefully consider this.... and yes, listen to the corpus of Christians.... but ultimately, I think you have a point. Where I tend to weigh in is on those birth control techniques where life is exterminated - there I think Scripture does speak (one of the Big Ten is about killing). The RCC's new birth control method of contraceptive sex meets that criteria in MY opinion - but then so does using condoms and several other methods. And I agree with the modern RC Denomination that couples that should not conceive certainly may (I'd say should) continue to have sex; reproduction not being its only purpose.

Even the issue of killing can only be applied to abortion if we can conclude the point at which life begins.

If life begins at conception than using an IUD is potentially committing murder.

If life begins at implantation then abortion is morally equivalent to murder.

If life begins at birth then abortion is morally no different to having an appendix removed.

Much of the discussion about the morality or otherwise of abortion goes down all sorts of emotive trails rather than using particular reasoning (in other words the sort of thing that might represent a reason for one person not to do it but not a reason to declare it a universal wrong). Much of this relates to quotes from, for example, Ps 139 about how God made us in our mother's womb. But that falls short of the mark because, as Genesis records, God formed Adam from the dust of the earth and then breathed life into him. In other words for a time Adam was a God-made object that was man-sized and man-shaped but not a living thing.

The best verse I've found so far that assigns a specific value to the life of an unborn child relates to the punishment due for accidentally killing an unborn is in Exodus 21 that describes what happens if men fight and hurt a pregnant woman - if the child is harmed then the punishment is life for life, eye for eye etc. In suppose even that could be argued not to relate to abortion but it seems like more of a stretch.

 

[psalms 91]

God states that He knows us before we are born and I know that it is popuar to go down all these rabbit trails but simple fact is it is murder. Do you ever wonder why this country has changed so much in the last fifty years> Why we are declining? The simple answer is that we are defying God as a country and abortion is a part of that. We kill babies every year and call it a medical procedure, God calls it something else

 

[tango]

God states that He knows us before we are born and I know that it is popuar to go down all these rabbit trails but simple fact is it is murder. Do you ever wonder why this country has changed so much in the last fifty years> Why we are declining? The simple answer is that we are defying God as a country and abortion is a part of that. We kill babies every year and call it a medical procedure, God calls it something else

Bill, with respect, your post adds nothing to the discussion.

It's all very well to say things like "the simple fact is..." but unless you're going to back your claim with something it's nothing more than an opinion. The person who says "abortion is nothing more than having your tonsils removed" and leaves it at that adds just as much value. If something is asserted without evidence it can just as easily be dismissed without evidence.

If we are to contend for the faith we really need to know what we believe and, just as importantly, why we believe it. I don't see it as a rabbit trail to try and understand where different viewpoints are coming from in order to determine, as best we can, which is correct. If you personally consider abortion to be morally unacceptable you have every right to choose not to have one (and I realise your profile says you are a man, so obviously we'd be talking about whether or not your partner had an abortion). If you want to make a case that someone else shouldn't have an abortion you need to be able to come up with a more coherent argument than "it's murder" because the chances are someone else will say "the fetus is just a bunch of cells" and, without any reasoning from either side as to why they believe what they do, the person trying to make a decision has nothing to go on.

Likewise your comment about defying God as a country is all well and good but doesn't explain why other countries that don't even pretend to be Christian nations (Sweden and Norway are perhaps the most obvious examples) seem to be doing just fine and not declining. Ultimately if you want to present an argument that won't be picked apart by a few questions you need to look more deeply than you seem to have done here.

The fact God knows us before we are born doesn't really add to the argument. We can see that God knows us before we are born from Jeremiah:

Jer 1:4-5 NKJV Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: (5) "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

But it's clearly absurd to say that someone is alive before they were formed in the womb. If you really want to argue that abortion is murder purely on the back of this verse you would have to avoid using any form of contraception, even things like the so-called "rhythm method", because they could result in the failure to conceive a person that God knew before they were even formed.

 

[psalms 91]

Bill, with respect, your post adds nothing to the discussion.

It's all very well to say things like "the simple fact is..." but unless you're going to back your claim with something it's nothing more than an opinion. The person who says "abortion is nothing more than having your tonsils removed" and leaves it at that adds just as much value. If something is asserted without evidence it can just as easily be dismissed without evidence.

If we are to contend for the faith we really need to know what we believe and, just as importantly, why we believe it. I don't see it as a rabbit trail to try and understand where different viewpoints are coming from in order to determine, as best we can, which is correct. If you personally consider abortion to be morally unacceptable you have every right to choose not to have one (and I realise your profile says you are a man, so obviously we'd be talking about whether or not your partner had an abortion). If you want to make a case that someone else shouldn't have an abortion you need to be able to come up with a more coherent argument than "it's murder" because the chances are someone else will say "the fetus is just a bunch of cells" and, without any reasoning from either side as to why they believe what they do, the person trying to make a decision has nothing to go on.

Likewise your comment about defying God as a country is all well and good but doesn't explain why other countries that don't even pretend to be Christian nations (Sweden and Norway are perhaps the most obvious examples) seem to be doing just fine and not declining. Ultimately if you want to present an argument that won't be picked apart by a few questions you need to look more deeply than you seem to have done here.

The fact God knows us before we are born doesn't really add to the argument. We can see that God knows us before we are born from Jeremiah:

Jer 1:4-5 NKJV Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: (5) "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

But it's clearly absurd to say that someone is alive before they were formed in the womb. If you really want to argue that abortion is murder purely on the back of this verse you would have to avoid using any form of contraception, even things like the so-called "rhythm method", because they could result in the failure to conceive a person that God knew before they were even formed.

Have you ever seen the movie where they ultrasund the fetus at different points in development? Did you know that it has a heartbeat at 22 days? Or that it is perfectly formed very earlt? God calls taking of life murder and that moviie shows life so it is murder