Infant Baptism

MoreCoffee

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As an adult who has received the revelation of God about who I was outside of Christ---a sinner in need of a Saviour---and repented of my sin and received God's free gift---I obeyed God in submitting myself to water baptism to identify publically with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
It did nothing then? You got wet. You think you obeyed and submitted and got wet.

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Full O Beans

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It did nothing then? You got wet. You think you obeyed and submitted and got wet.
I got a spiritual sealing from God, and an anointing from the Holy Spirit, as promised. Submitting to the Father's will is always a good thing and in that begins a life of His direction and blessing.

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MoreCoffee

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I got a spiritual sealing from God, and an anointing from the Holy Spirit, as promised. Submitting to the Father's will is always a good thing and in that begins a life of His direction and blessing.
You did? Where does holy scripture say that you get a spiritual sealing from God when you get wet with baptism?

Would an infant get a spiritual sealing from God if the infant were baptised?

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Full O Beans

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Anointing or the sealing of the new believer occurs in water baptism, as one publically confesses Christ, entering into Christ and steps into a new life in Christ. That's the purpose of water baptism for the new believer.

An infant doesn't require it. He is already innocent and not held accountable for sin, nor can he comply with God's word or will because he cannot read, nor receive the gospel message, nor can he enter into spiritual responsibility to lead and preach and teach, which is what water baptism launches the Christian into.

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MoreCoffee

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Anointing or the sealing of the new believer occurs in water baptism, as one publicly confesses Christ, entering into Christ and steps into a new life in Christ. That's the purpose of water baptism for the new believer.
Where does holy scripture say that baptism is "Anointing or the sealing of the new believer occurs in water baptism, as one publicly confesses Christ"?

An infant doesn't require it. He is already innocent and not held accountable for sin
Where does holy scripture say "An infant doesn't require it. He is already innocent and not held accountable for sin"?

, nor can he comply with God's word or will because he cannot read, nor receive the gospel message, nor can he enter into spiritual responsibility to lead and preach and teach, which is what water baptism launches the Christian into.
Holy scripture never says what you've said. Have you received this tradition of men from your local congregation?

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PS: I like your full o beans kitty :p
 

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I'm reading a lot of what your pastors have told you about this modern baptism where God's Word has been eliminated...so God's Word can't bring an infant to faith? God's Word cannot bring the benefits of the cross to anyone? The new baptism has so much me-theology in it and has turned from what God says He will do and denying infants a part of that.
 

MoreCoffee

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Me me me me me me me .... it's all about Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!! Baptism that is :king:

But holy scripture says baptism is about the birth from above and washing away sins and dying with Christ so as to rise with him to a new life and all of that is about what God does not what I did. It's not about me it is about God and God's faithfulness and God's promises being fulfilled. Baptism is about God's goodness and grace and love.

So what do we do? Keep on sinning so God can keep on forgiving? I should hope not! If we've left the country where sin is sovereign, how can we still live in our old house there? Or didn't you realize we packed up and left there for good? That is what happened in baptism. When we went under the water, we left the old country of sin behind; when we came up out of the water, we entered into the new country of grace--a new life in a new land! That's what baptism into the life of Jesus means. When we are lowered into the water, it is like the burial of Jesus; when we are raised up out of the water, it is like the resurrection of Jesus. Each of us is raised into a light-filled world by our Father so that we can see where we're going in our new grace-sovereign country. Could it be any clearer? Our old way of life was nailed to the Cross with Christ, a decisive end to that sin-miserable life--no longer at sin's every beck and call! What we believe is this: If we get included in Christ's sin-conquering death, we also get included in his life-saving resurrection. We know that when Jesus was raised from the dead it was a signal of the end of death-as-the-end. Never again will death have the last word. When Jesus died, he took sin down with him, but alive he brings God down to us. From now on, think of it this way: Sin speaks a dead language that means nothing to you; God speaks your mother tongue, and you hang on every word. You are dead to sin and alive to God. That's what Jesus did. That means you must not give sin a vote in the way you conduct your lives. Don't give it the time of day. Don't even run little errands that are connected with that old way of life. Throw yourselves wholeheartedly and full-time--remember, you've been raised from the dead!--into God's way of doing things. Sin can't tell you how to live. After all, you're not living under that old tyranny any longer. You're living in the freedom of God.
(Romans 6:1-14)
 

Full O Beans

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Where does holy scripture say that baptism is "Anointing or the sealing of the new believer occurs in water baptism, as one publicly confesses Christ"?


Where does holy scripture say "An infant doesn't require it. He is already innocent and not held accountable for sin"?


Holy scripture never says what you've said. Have you received this tradition of men from your local congregation?




PS: I like your full o beans kitty :p
When you know God and His word, you know that He doesn't teach us to perform baptisms on unaware infants. The command is to believers. Babies are not believers, nor can they decide to obey God in the command. It has just become a futile exercise in religion...something that Jesus despises, actually.

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TurtleHare

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I have known God since infancy and he doesn't deny babies from receiving what he offers.
 

Full O Beans

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I have known God since infancy and he doesn't deny babies from receiving what he offers.
Somewhere in life, removed from infancy, one learns about Jesus and God's plan of salvation, and at some remembered point in life, one receives that free gift from God and repents of sin. Salvation is not received by heredity at birth, nor is it imparted by the actions of others by a religious rite. It is received by an act of faith.

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TurtleHare

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Baptism and teaching go together as Jesus says so infants are not kept from God's Word after baptism which would be wicked so the rest of your post is rubbish and doesn't apply here.
 

Full O Beans

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Baptism and teaching go together as Jesus says so infants are not kept from God's Word after baptism which would be wicked so the rest of your post is rubbish and doesn't apply here.
It's false teaching that promotes the idea that we can confer salvation to an innocent, unaware and unaccountable babe by dunking them in water. Baptism saves NO ONE.

Under God, our responsibility on Him is to convey the message of salvation from the cradle so that our children will come to know Jesus at an early age. Teaching! Modeling Christ! Nothing there about immersing infants in water, which is a decision made by believers for themselves!
 

Josiah

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Somewhere in life, removed from infancy, one learns about Jesus and God's plan of salvation, and at some remembered point in life, one receives that free gift from God and repents of sin. Salvation is not received by heredity at birth, nor is it imparted by the actions of others by a religious rite. It is received by an act of faith.

What Scripture states that we must withhold baptism from any who has not yet attained the age of X? Where is the prohibition that is the insistence of this new, small tradition of rejecting/denying/protesting PAEDO-baptism (the issue of this thread: whether the command to baptize is restricted to those under the age of X, whatever that age is protestors never say). Since 69 AD at the very, very latest - it was the UNIVERSAL view of ALL Christians that Jesus' command does NOT have a biblical prohibition in it based on age. But in the 16th Century, a German came along and invented, created a new view: that we are forbidden in Scripture from permitting those under the age of X from receiving baptism (a protest of the practice of paedo-baptism), creating this new (and so far small) tradition of protesting paedo-baptism and withholding it from any under the age of X (I say "X" because in the nearly 500 years since this tradition was invented, there is no consensus what age this is). This thread is entirely about this new tradition of WITHHOLDING baptism based on age.

Some insist that those under this (never disclosed) age must give their formal CONSENT before we can give them anything or do anything for them, but they've revealed they have NOTHING in Scripture (or anywhere else) to support this. Some insist that those under this (never disclosed) age must FIRST weep buckets of tears in repentance and only after that may they receieve baptism, but they've revealed they have NOTHING in Scripture (or anywhere else) to support this. Some insist that those under this (never disclosed) age must attain a certain IQ and educational level and understanding (although they won't say what level that is) before they may be permitted to receive Bapatism but they have revealed they have NOTHING in Scripture to remotely support this.

Now, some have (correctly) pointed out that there is no specific verse that says those under the age of X (whatever age that is) MAY be baptized. True enough, but then there is no verse that says those OVER that age may be baptized. And there's no verse that says Americans may be baptized, or folks with blonde hair may be baptized or those with a Ph.D. may be baptized or Methodists may be baptized or married people may be baptized (and we have no examples in Scripture of any such being baptized) - yet they permit persons to be baptized WITHOUT a specific verse saying they are permitted (and even without a single example of they being baptized in the Bible). Now, if someone dogmatically insisted that married people must be forbidden from baptism, I'd bet you'd shout "Where does the Bible say that!!???!!!" Well.... where does the Bible say that those under the (never disclosed) age of X are forbidden and baptism must be withheld from them? There IS the general command to baptize, but there is no more a verse "But thou mayest NOT baptize those under the age of X, such is forbidden!" than there is a verse, "But thou mayest NOT baptize married people, such are forbidden!"



Thank you.


- Josiah
 

Full O Beans

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Know the word. Know God's mind and heart about this. So far I am only seeing the love of some church doctrine at the expense of real truth, here.

There is no withholding of baptism to any believer who desires to obey God in baptism.

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Josiah

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Know the word. Know God's mind and heart about this. So far I am only seeing the love of some church doctrine at the expense of real truth, here

Yes, some (a small percentage of Christians) for the past nearly 500 years (25% of Christian history) are following the tradition of Mr. Thomas Muenzer who invented/created this new tradition of withholding baptism for those under the age of X, dogmatically insisting that those under that (never disclosed) age are forbidden from receiving baptism in the Bible. Thus, protesting the universal practice of all Christians since 69 AD at the very, very latest of NOT restricting God's command based on not yet attained the (never disclosed) age of X. These few Christians, for about 25% of Christian history, have embraced a new doctrine, new prohibition. But what this thread has so very, very well documented is that they have NOTHING in Scripture (or anywhere else) to support this new prohibition, this new restriction, this new doctrine of withholding baptism to those who ahve not yet celebrated X number of birthdays.


What Scripture states that we must withhold baptism from any who has not yet attained the age of X? Where is the prohibition that is the insistence of this new, small tradition of rejecting/denying/protesting PAEDO-baptism (the issue of this thread: whether the command to baptize is restricted to those under the age of X, whatever that age is protestors never say). Since 69 AD at the very, very latest - it was the UNIVERSAL view of ALL Christians that Jesus' command does NOT have a biblical prohibition in it based on age. But in the 16th Century, a German came along and invented, created a new view: that we are forbidden in Scripture from permitting those under the age of X from receiving baptism (a protest of the practice of paedo-baptism), creating this new (and so far small) tradition of protesting paedo-baptism and withholding it from any under the age of X (I say "X" because in the nearly 500 years since this tradition was invented, there is no consensus what age this is). This thread is entirely about this new tradition of WITHHOLDING baptism based on age.

Some insist that those under this (never disclosed) age must give their formal CONSENT before we can give them anything or do anything for them, but they've revealed they have NOTHING in Scripture (or anywhere else) to support this. Some insist that those under this (never disclosed) age must FIRST weep buckets of tears in repentance and only after that may they receieve baptism, but they've revealed they have NOTHING in Scripture (or anywhere else) to support this. Some insist that those under this (never disclosed) age must attain a certain IQ and educational level and understanding (although they won't say what level that is) before they may be permitted to receive Bapatism but they have revealed they have NOTHING in Scripture to remotely support this.

Now, some have (correctly) pointed out that there is no specific verse that says those under the age of X (whatever age that is) MAY be baptized. True enough, but then there is no verse that says those OVER that age may be baptized. And there's no verse that says Americans may be baptized, or folks with blonde hair may be baptized or those with a Ph.D. may be baptized or Methodists may be baptized or married people may be baptized (and we have no examples in Scripture of any such being baptized) - yet they permit persons to be baptized WITHOUT a specific verse saying they are permitted (and even without a single example of they being baptized in the Bible). Now, if someone dogmatically insisted that married people must be forbidden from baptism, I'd bet you'd shout "Where does the Bible say that!!???!!!" Well.... where does the Bible say that those under the (never disclosed) age of X are forbidden and baptism must be withheld from them? There IS the general command to baptize, but there is no more a verse "But thou mayest NOT baptize those under the age of X, such is forbidden!" than there is a verse, "But thou mayest NOT baptize married people, such are forbidden!"


.



- Josiah
 

Full O Beans

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Josiah, you are mounting a defense of a false church doctrine, and not any biblical teaching.

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Josiah

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Josiah, you are mounting a defense of a false church doctrine, and not any biblical teaching.

Then it's easy: Just quote the verse(s) that support the new, small tradition of Mr. Thomas Muenzer in the 16th Century that you embrace in lieu of the universal view of all Christians since 69 AD at the very latest: that Scripture forbids those under the age of X from receiving baptism.



Josiah said:
Yes, some (a small percentage of Christians) for the past nearly 500 years (25% of Christian history) are following the tradition of Mr. Thomas Muenzer who invented/created this new tradition of withholding baptism for those under the age of X, dogmatically insisting that those under that (never disclosed) age are forbidden from receiving baptism in the Bible. Thus, protesting the universal practice of all Christians since 69 AD at the very, very latest of NOT restricting God's command based on not yet attained the (never disclosed) age of X. These few Christians, for about 25% of Christian history, have embraced a new doctrine, new prohibition. But what this thread has so very, very well documented is that they have NOTHING in Scripture (or anywhere else) to support this new prohibition, this new restriction, this new doctrine of withholding baptism to those who ahve not yet celebrated X number of birthdays.



What Scripture states that we must withhold baptism from any who has not yet attained the age of X? Where is the prohibition that is the insistence of this new, small tradition of rejecting/denying/protesting PAEDO-baptism (the issue of this thread: whether the command to baptize is restricted to those under the age of X, whatever that age is protestors never say). Since 69 AD at the very, very latest - it was the UNIVERSAL view of ALL Christians that Jesus' command does NOT have a biblical prohibition in it based on age. But in the 16th Century, a German came along and invented, created a new view: that we are forbidden in Scripture from permitting those under the age of X from receiving baptism (a protest of the practice of paedo-baptism), creating this new (and so far small) tradition of protesting paedo-baptism and withholding it from any under the age of X (I say "X" because in the nearly 500 years since this tradition was invented, there is no consensus what age this is). This thread is entirely about this new tradition of WITHHOLDING baptism based on age.

Some insist that those under this (never disclosed) age must give their formal CONSENT before we can give them anything or do anything for them, but they've revealed they have NOTHING in Scripture (or anywhere else) to support this. Some insist that those under this (never disclosed) age must FIRST weep buckets of tears in repentance and only after that may they receieve baptism, but they've revealed they have NOTHING in Scripture (or anywhere else) to support this. Some insist that those under this (never disclosed) age must attain a certain IQ and educational level and understanding (although they won't say what level that is) before they may be permitted to receive Bapatism but they have revealed they have NOTHING in Scripture to remotely support this.

Now, some have (correctly) pointed out that there is no specific verse that says those under the age of X (whatever age that is) MAY be baptized. True enough, but then there is no verse that says those OVER that age may be baptized. And there's no verse that says Americans may be baptized, or folks with blonde hair may be baptized or those with a Ph.D. may be baptized or Methodists may be baptized or married people may be baptized (and we have no examples in Scripture of any such being baptized) - yet they permit persons to be baptized WITHOUT a specific verse saying they are permitted (and even without a single example of they being baptized in the Bible). Now, if someone dogmatically insisted that married people must be forbidden from baptism, I'd bet you'd shout "Where does the Bible say that!!???!!!" Well.... where does the Bible say that those under the (never disclosed) age of X are forbidden and baptism must be withheld from them? There IS the general command to baptize, but there is no more a verse "But thou mayest NOT baptize those under the age of X, such is forbidden!" than there is a verse, "But thou mayest NOT baptize married people, such are forbidden!"



.




.
 

Full O Beans

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Quote the verses that tell us of infants who openly confess with their mouths that Jesus is Lord, according to Romans 10:9-10, and how they learn of baptism and then choose to be baptized.

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MoreCoffee

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When you know God and His word, you know that He doesn't teach us to perform baptisms on unaware infants.
Do you think that the church fathers, bishops, and the faithful did not and do not know the holy scriptures? Are you serious? Do you mean that until the Anabaptists appeared some time around 1521 AD that nearly everybody was ignorant of scripture for 1,500 years? Really?


The command is to believers. Babies are not believers, nor can they decide to obey God in the command. It has just become a futile exercise in religion...something that Jesus despises, actually.

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Full O Beans

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You've been sold a bill of goods. No one from the beginning of the Church baptized babies.

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