Misery and mercy

[MoreCoffee]

God is merciful. That is a fact given in holy scripture. God is love is another fact given in holy scripture. Is there a relationship between mercy and love? Yes. Mercy is the face of love shown to those who are in misery because of their sins. When we affirm that God is merciful to us we also affirm that we are sinful because a sinless person needs no mercy but a sinner who is miserable because of their sin crys out to God for mercy. Jesus, our Lord, put it this way:

Luke 18:10-13 'Two men went up to the Temple to pray, one a Pharisee, the other a tax collector. (11) The Pharisee stood there and said this prayer to himself, "I thank you, God, that I am not grasping, unjust, adulterous like everyone else, and particularly that I am not like this tax collector here. (12) I fast twice a week; I pay tithes on all I get." (13) The tax collector stood some distance away, not daring even to raise his eyes to heaven; but he beat his breast and said, "God, be merciful to me, a sinner."​

Never forget that mercy implies the presence of sin. Mercy can never mean that sin doesn't matter. It is never true that God's mercy means God is indifferent to sins.

The two men in the story told by the Lord Jesus Christ received from God what was appropriate to their prayers.

Luke 18:14 I tell you," said Jesus, "the tax collector, and not the Pharisee, was in the right with God when he went home. For those who make themselves great will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be made great."​

 

[visionary]

Mercy will always be part of God's nature. It is more appreciated when misery is present.

 

[Josiah]

God is merciful. That is a fact given in holy scripture. God is love is another fact given in holy scripture. Is there a relationship between mercy and love? Yes. Mercy is the face of love shown to those who are in misery because of their sins. When we affirm that God is merciful to us we also affirm that we are sinful because a sinless person needs no mercy but a sinner who is miserable because of their sin crys out to God for mercy. Jesus, our Lord, put it this way:

Luke 18:10-13 'Two men went up to the Temple to pray, one a Pharisee, the other a tax collector. (11) The Pharisee stood there and said this prayer to himself, "I thank you, God, that I am not grasping, unjust, adulterous like everyone else, and particularly that I am not like this tax collector here. (12) I fast twice a week; I pay tithes on all I get." (13) The tax collector stood some distance away, not daring even to raise his eyes to heaven; but he beat his breast and said, "God, be merciful to me, a sinner."​

Never forget that mercy implies the presence of sin. Mercy can never mean that sin doesn't matter. It is never true that God's mercy means God is indifferent to sins.

The two men in the story told by the Lord Jesus Christ received from God what was appropriate to their prayers.

Luke 18:14 I tell you," said Jesus, "the tax collector, and not the Pharisee, was in the right with God when he went home. For those who make themselves great will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be made great."​

I agree with your post....


But in my Catholic days, I always got the STRONG impression that the Pharisee was the hero of the story of the two men in the Temple. Indeed, the Publican was at times compared to Protestants who think they will get into heaven because of MERCY. We are to be like the Pharisee, who stands before God righteous - worthy - because only then can we enter heaven. The whole point of Catholic soteriology is what we have to BE holy, not that God is MERCIFUL to undeserving sinners.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

I agree with your post....


But in my Catholic days, I always got the STRONG impression that the Pharisee was the hero of the story of the two men in the Temple. Indeed, the Publican was at times compared to Protestants who think they will get into heaven because of MERCY. We are to be like the Pharisee, who stands before God righteous - worthy - because only then can we enter heaven. The whole point of Catholic soteriology is what we have to BE holy, not that God is MERCIFUL to undeserving sinners.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

We are all undeserving sinners

 

[Josiah]

We are all undeserving sinners

Said by a good Protestant, my friend! Yup..... after I left the RCC, I came to realize that the Pharisee was NOT (!) the hero of that parable of Jesus, NOT the example we are follow. ACTUALLY, Jesus was noting the example of the PUBLICAN! What a shocking realization that was to me! And it was part of my realization (which happened only after I left the RCC - it wasn't a factor in my leaving) that the RCC is seriously "off" in the most central, most important doctrine of all: Justification.




.

 

[TurtleHare]

Mercy will always be part of God's nature. It is more appreciated when misery is present.

^^ This!! Simply stated and yet it speaks volumes!

 

[MoreCoffee]

^^ This!! Simply stated and yet it speaks volumes!

To whom was God merciful before God created the heavens and the Earth?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I agree with your post....


But in my Catholic days, I always got the STRONG impression that the Pharisee was the hero of the story of the two men in the Temple. ...

Do you think that your understanding, in your Catholic days, was the doctrine of the Catholic Church?

 

[TurtleHare]

To whom was God merciful before God created the heavens and the Earth?

Since scripture doesn't state those specifics I don't care to take a guess and neither should you.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Since scripture doesn't state those specifics I don't care to take a guess and neither should you.

I think that mercy is a case of love being applied to sinners. God does not sin so to whom can he show mercy in eternity 'before' creation?

 

[visionary]

To whom was God merciful before God created the heavens and the Earth?

There is a vast universe of God's creation even before Earth... At what point do you think God was not merciful? I see His mercy in making sure earth was the proper environment for us to live in. Mercy does not have to be at times of misery because when it is before misery it is like a father setting the alarm for home security before bed, so that misery does not enter.

 

[MoreCoffee]

There is a vast universe of God's creation even before Earth... At what point do you think God was not merciful?

God was not merciful until a need for mercy arose. Sin is not found in God yet God WAS before any creature existed and before time existed. To whom was God merciful 'before' creation?

I see His mercy in making sure earth was the proper environment for us to live in. Mercy does not have to be at times of misery because when it is before misery it is like a father setting the alarm for home security before bed, so that misery does not enter.

 

[visionary]

God was not merciful until a need for mercy arose. Sin is not found in God yet God WAS before any creature existed and before time existed. To whom was God merciful 'before' creation?

Mercy is in God's nature and is revealed in His creation, having checks and balances in place long before the foundation was created. It was written into His plans of redemption.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[MoreCoffee]

Mercy is in God's nature and is revealed in His creation, having checks and balances in place long before the foundation was created. It was written into His plans of redemption.

The verse you quoted mentions love and in the original post it was proposed that mercy is the face that love shows to sinners.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love​

God is merciful. That is a fact given in holy scripture. God is love is another fact given in holy scripture. Is there a relationship between mercy and love? Yes. Mercy is the face of love shown to those who are in misery because of their sins. When we affirm that God is merciful to us we also affirm that we are sinful because a sinless person needs no mercy but a sinner who is miserable because of their sin crys out to God for mercy. Jesus, our Lord, put it this way:

Luke 18:10-13 'Two men went up to the Temple to pray, one a Pharisee, the other a tax collector. (11) The Pharisee stood there and said this prayer to himself, "I thank you, God, that I am not grasping, unjust, adulterous like everyone else, and particularly that I am not like this tax collector here. (12) I fast twice a week; I pay tithes on all I get." (13) The tax collector stood some distance away, not daring even to raise his eyes to heaven; but he beat his breast and said, "God, be merciful to me, a sinner."​

Never forget that mercy implies the presence of sin. Mercy can never mean that sin doesn't matter. It is never true that God's mercy means God is indifferent to sins.

The two men in the story told by the Lord Jesus Christ received from God what was appropriate to their prayers.

Luke 18:14 I tell you," said Jesus, "the tax collector, and not the Pharisee, was in the right with God when he went home. For those who make themselves great will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be made great."​

 

[visionary]

The verse you quoted mentions love and in the original post it was proposed that mercy is the face that love shows to sinners.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love​

I agree. Is love without mercy? I think not... so to me they are the same thing.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Is love without mercy?

Not to sinners nor among sinners but in the Blessed Trinity there is no sin and hence no face of mercy shown because there is nothing for which mercy is needed. To fallen creation Love is shown in Mercy.

 

[visionary]

Not to sinners nor among sinners but in the Blessed Trinity there is no sin and hence no face of mercy shown because there is nothing for which mercy is needed. To fallen creation Love is shown in Mercy.

Like you said, ... mercy is the face that love shows... God's face is full of mercy even in His heavenly courts of no sinners or sins.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Like you said, ... mercy is the face that love shows... God's face is full of mercy even in His heavenly courts of no sinners or sins.

Doest thou have holy scripture for that claim? It sounds nicely pious except for implying that mercy is needed where no sin exists and thus accuses the sinless of some fault requiring mercy. Further, before creation there was no creature to show mercy to. In that state to whom would God be merciful?

 

[visionary]

Doest thou have holy scripture for that claim? It sounds nicely pious except for implying that mercy is needed where no sin exists and thus accuses the sinless of some fault requiring mercy. Further, before creation there was no creature to show mercy to. In that state to whom would God be merciful?

I am seeing what you are saying.. you think that mercy is directly tied to a response to sin. When I rescue a child drowning in water, it is out of love not a response to their sin, which I don't believe is in this instance. Mercy is showing love. It is not directly related to evidence of sin.

 

[psalms 91]

I am seeing what you are saying.. you think that mercy is directly tied to a response to sin. When I rescue a child drowning in water, it is out of love not a response to their sin, which I don't believe is in this instance. Mercy is showing love. It is not directly related to evidence of sin.

If not sin then what is mercy for? There is no chance and everythiong that happens to us in this life is because iof obediience or sin you cannot seperate sin from mercy