Do you believe God works through means?

[Lamb]

God's Word is efficacious. There is a verse in the Old Testament that says His Word will not return to Him empty. This is why it's okay to baptize an infant, because God's Word is alive and active and it's in with the water in baptism.

 

[visionary]

God's Word is efficacious. There is a verse in the Old Testament that says His Word will not return to Him empty. This is why it's okay to baptize an infant, because God's Word is alive and active and it's in with the water in baptism.

hahahaha.... Yeshua should have been baptized as a baby then.

 

[Josiah]

hahahaha.... Yeshua should have been baptized as a baby then.

The Jews had a rite of baptism that including babies, but it was for gentile converts. Jesus wasn't a gentile. And of course, Christian baptism didn't exist when Jesus was a baby (circumcision did, however - and He was circumcised: note WITHOUT His consent, WITHOUT Him first repenting buckets or saying the sinners prayer or doing the altar call thing....)

But, respectfully, I disagree with your premise that we can ONLY do what JESUS did. If you yourself believed your own point, then you'd insist that your church doesn't use electricity or the internet or powerpoint (Jesus didn't)..... That you don't baptize anyone (Jesus never did). That you don't pass Communion around with little cups of grape juice and cut up pieces of Webers' white bread (even giving it to GENTILES!!! Maybe even CHILDREN) - because Jesus never did that. You'd not stand for youth groups or youth pastors or praise bands because Jesus never had or used any of those. And of course you WOULD have the public circumcision of boys 8 days old in church because Jesus was.







- Josiah

 

[TurtleHare]

hahahaha.... Yeshua should have been baptized as a baby then.

What would it have benefited him?

 

[visionary]

The Jews had a rite of baptism that including babies, but it was for gentile converts. Jesus wasn't a gentile. And of course, Christian baptism didn't exist when Jesus was a baby (circumcision did, however - and He was circumcised: note WITHOUT His consent, WITHOUT Him first repenting buckets or saying the sinners prayer or doing the altar call thing....)

But, respectfully, I disagree with your premise that we can ONLY do what JESUS did. If you yourself believed your own point, then you'd insist that your church doesn't use electricity or the internet or powerpoint (Jesus didn't)..... That you don't baptize anyone (Jesus never did). That you don't pass Communion around with little cups of grape juice and cut up pieces of Webers' white bread (even giving it to GENTILES!!! Maybe even CHILDREN) - because Jesus never did that. You'd not stand for youth groups or youth pastors or praise bands because Jesus never had or used any of those. And of course you WOULD have the public circumcision of boys 8 days old in church because Jesus was.







- Josiah

Circumcision.. and baptism are two different things. .. One is a covenant sign and the other is a transformation sign.

For example.. let's say a gentile wants to partake of the Passover. He has to take a covenant sign.
Let's say that this gentile wants to show the world that he believes in repentance for his sins, does the John the Baptist mikvah like Yeshua did, and then does another mikvah accepting Yeshua as the Messiah. Neither one of these mikvahs get the gentile the right to partake of the Passover until He is circumcised. That is different step which should be first, in order for him to know the who, what, where, when of repentance before God.

 

[Josiah]

Circumcision.. and baptism are two different things. ..

They are. However Jesus was circumcised. As an infant. WITHOUT his consent. WITHOUT him weeping buckets of tears in repentance. WITHOUT his first reciting the sinner's prayer.

And while Scripture associates Christian baptism with circumcision, it never associates it with any Jewish rite of baptism (including Jesus').

Where is this biblical prohibition of giving/doing something to a person (such as circumcision or baptism or a bible lesson) unless such FIRST specifically consents to it, FIRST weeps buckets of tears in repentance, FIRST celebrates their X birthday, FIRST recites the sinner's prayer? And where does Scripture indicate that we can ONLY do what Jesus did or the Apostles did or what is exampled in the pages of the NT (thus, it is forbidden to post on the internet)?

And if we ARE to do what Jesus experienced, then do you have a public ceremony in your church to circumcise all boys on their 8th day? Do you only baptize in the Jordan River, and permit only Hebrews to do the baptism and only allow Hebrews to be baptized?




.

 

[Full O Beans]

As a Lutheran, I believe and see evidence in both the Old and New Testaments that God works through earthly means and attaches His Word to those means.

Where I see people talking about obedience, I see instead God at work because He made a promise and man can't take the credit for God's work.

Do you believe God works through means?

Every day!

1 Corinthians 1:27
27 Instead, God chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise. And he chose things that are powerless to shame those who are powerful.