Infant Baptism

[Josiah]

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And the lord Jesus has given it back to us .

Where does Scripture say THAT?

Here are some places you can start....

Romans 3:23-28
Romans 8:28-29
Ephesians 1:3-14
Ephesians 2:8-9
Ephesians 1:3-14
1 Corinthians 12:3
Ephesians 2:8
John 15:16


Then, while you are at it, I'm still waiting for the verse, "Thou canst NOT baptize those under the age of X."


Thanks.


- Josiah





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[TurtleHare]

really? where does scripture state that .we ate tslking about babies.

Are you asking where does scripture state that babies can have faith?

How about all these verses?

Luke 18:17 ESV
Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”

Matthew 18:3 ESV
And said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:14 ESV
But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

Mark 10:13-16 ESV
And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.

Matthew 21:16 ESV
And they said to him, “Do you hear what these are saying?” And Jesus said to them, “Yes; have you never read, “‘Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise’?”

Proverbs 22:6 ESV
Out of the mouth of babies and infants, you have established strength because of your foes, to still the enemy and the avenger.

Romans 10:17 ESV
The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isaiah 41:10 ESV
Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation—

Psalm 71:5-6 ESV
For you, O Lord, are my hope, my trust, O Lord, from my youth. Upon you I have leaned from before my birth; you are he who took me from my mother's womb. My praise is continually of you.

Matthew 21:15-16 ESV
But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying out in the temple, “Hosanna to the Son of David!” they were indignant, and they said to him, “Do you hear what these are saying?” And Jesus said to them, “Yes; have you never read, “‘Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise’?”

 

[MoreCoffee]

It appears that baptism has no special significance in the teaching of credobaptist groups. Does it wash away sins? Does it bring about the birth from above? Does it give grace? Does it save? What exactly does it do? Why be baptised?

 

[Alithis]

Where does Scripture say THAT?

Here are some places you can start....

Romans 3:23-28
Romans 8:28-29
Ephesians 1:3-14
Ephesians 2:8-9
Ephesians 1:3-14
1 Corinthians 12:3
Ephesians 2:8
John 15:16


Then, while you are at it, I'm still waiting for the verse, "Thou canst NOT baptize those under the age of X."


Thanks.


- Josiah





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Well youve answerd to the wrong quote.and for the ,i dont know how many times,..no one has ever said you cant..

It just has no meaning..when they get old enough to understand..they will ned to obey the gospel.

 

[Alithis]

Are you asking where does scripture state that babies can have faith?

How about all these verses?

Luke 18:17 ESV
Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”

Matthew 18:3 ESV
And said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:14 ESV
But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

Mark 10:13-16 ESV
And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.

Matthew 21:16 ESV
And they said to him, “Do you hear what these are saying?” And Jesus said to them, “Yes; have you never read, “‘Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise’?”

Proverbs 22:6 ESV
Out of the mouth of babies and infants, you have established strength because of your foes, to still the enemy and the avenger.

Romans 10:17 ESV
The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isaiah 41:10 ESV
Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation—

Psalm 71:5-6 ESV
For you, O Lord, are my hope, my trust, O Lord, from my youth. Upon you I have leaned from before my birth; you are he who took me from my mother's womb. My praise is continually of you.

Matthew 21:15-16 ESV
But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying out in the temple, “Hosanna to the Son of David!” they were indignant, and they said to him, “Do you hear what these are saying?” And Jesus said to them, “Yes; have you never read, “‘Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise’?”

On tte topic of baptizing babies this lot is about as ambiguous as it gets.. youve changed the topic to faith. They still cant know to be aware of sin and repentance. So it changes nothing. When they do know...they will still have to obey the whole gospel.
Sprinkling as a baby wont change that. So go ahead.just dont lie to them about it later.

 

[Josiah]

They still cant know to be aware of sin and repentance.

Even if true, you STILL have not even attempted to show that such is a mandate BEFORE we can baptize a person. All you've done is isolate a single verse you found ("Repent and BE baptized") while admitting the obvious: the word "and" in no way whatsoever mandates (or even implies) order - admitted your whole premise that this single isolated verse MANDATES that FIRST one must repent and only then, only after that, may they be baptized. Your premise is that this verse uses the wrong wrong (and) when it should have used the correct word (then) but you admit that's not the case.


Read the opening post.



- Josiah

 

[Lamb]

Well youve answerd to the wrong quote.and for the ,i dont know how many times,..no one has ever said you cant..

It just has no meaning..when they get old enough to understand..they will ned to obey the gospel.

No one can understand without God's grace upon them first in the form of faith and even babies can have faith according to all those verses posted.

Jesus told the disciples that they were to baptize and teach. Those go hand in hand. He said "all nations" and entire households were baptized. If you think about the Jewish household, you would know they wouldn't exclude their beloved babies.

 

[Alithis]

Even if true, you STILL have not even attempted to show that such is a mandate BEFORE we can baptize a person. All you've done is isolate a single verse you found ("Repent and BE baptized") while admitting the obvious: the word "and" in no way whatsoever mandates (or even implies) order - admitted your whole premise that this single isolated verse MANDATES that FIRST one must repent and only then, only after that, may they be baptized. Your premise is that this verse uses the wrong wrong (and) when it should have used the correct word (then) but you admit that's not the case.


Read the opening post.



- Josiah

yeah i have. so many times its like a broken record ..you just keep rejecting it .

it says .."repent and be baptised and you will receive the holy ghost .. its a package . nowhere does it say to "only be baptised " .
you know this. .. you rather weakly do wordplay to no end .. so reverse it if it makes you happy .. be baptised and repent .. there a go . still a packaged collective directive .
so you've changed nothing with your silly word games . and you can't decide to follow the lord jesus .. which means you have to stop following your own wil ..turn around and go the other way in order to follow him through the waters of baptism -you can't do that when you are following someone else . you have to repent -which means turn to God ,in order to then follow the lord jesus .. and he wil lead you to the waters of baptism. . so any way you play with it .. your back at the start .. as the word plainly teaches minus your word games .. "repent and be baptised and you wil receive the Holy Ghost .
want to know how you can test whether or not it's been done genuinely with sincerity of heart ? easy .. God wil acknowledge the obedience by the baptism of the Holy Ghost .

 

[Alithis]

No one can understand without God's grace upon them first in the form of faith and even babies can have faith according to all those verses posted.

Jesus told the disciples that they were to baptize and teach. Those go hand in hand. He said "all nations" and entire households were baptized. If you think about the Jewish household, you would know they wouldn't exclude their beloved babies.

i could also equally know they wouldn't include them .. they are rather strict with that sort of protocol .. ie 8 days for circumcision .. why could i possibly equally know that ? becaseu i would know it the same way you know it .... i could make it up.

i have never said they did not baptise thier babies
and the reason i have never said it is the same reason there is no way you can say they did either .
it is pure assumption . we don't build theology on assumption . we build it on the word of God .
there is no evidence that they baptised babies .. and the sprinkling of babies(which is not baptism) was introduced later .. much much later .

 

[Josiah]

there is no way you can say they did either .
it is pure assumption . we don't build theology on assumption .

And yet AS YOU ADMIT, the theology of no infant baptism is based on an ASSUMPTION - and thus, according to you, invalid.

So you have no basis to deny or reject infant baptism (the sole subject of this thread: the practice of permitting rather than denying children to receive Baptism). Your post is an admission that you have NOTHING (just baseless assumptions, personal opinions) to enact this recent prohibition of infant baptism.

there is no evidence that they baptised babies ..

There's no evidence that they baptized Americans either but that never stopped any anabaptist. And BTW, there is no evidence that they had youth pastors or youth groups, that they had websites and powerpoint, that they had altar calls and baptism tanks, that they used grape juice and Weber's bread in communion, that they had VBS or colleges or seminaries.... yet none of that seems to matter to anabaptists, so since they entirely IGNORE what the folks in the Bible did not do, your argument that that the folks in the Bible did is normative is thus baseless. You can't have it both ways: that we can only do what they did in the NT AND that we CAN do things they never did in the NT, you are just shooting yourself in the foot and proving you yourself don't even accept your argument (so why should we?). I reject this whole premise of yours BECAUSE YOU DO; no reason for me to accept a rubric that you yourself don't (the very reality that you are posting on the internet proves you don't accept your own argument).




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[Josiah]

it says .."repent and be baptised and you will receive the holy ghost ..

You simply aren't reading what you are typing..... the word is "and" not "then." You admit this but then keep forgetting this. Yup, you searched until you found a verse, which you isolate. That verse says "repent AND BE baptized." But (as you finally admitted), "and" in no way whatsoever mandates or even implies order, thus this verse in no way at all mandates that FIRST a receipient must repent and only after that may they be baptized. Thus, this verse you keep posting does nothing, absolutely nothing whatsoever, to support the prohibition of infants from baptism. What you keep doing is hoping all will ignore the word actually in the Bible (and) and replace it with the word you wish was there (then). You have nothing to support this recent tradition of a very few Christians, this focused prohibition from Baptism of those under the age of X.

i



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[Alithis]

You simply aren't reading what you are typing..... the word is "and" not "then." You admit this but then keep forgetting this. Yup, you searched until you found a verse, which you isolate. That verse says "repent AND BE baptized." But (as you finally admitted), "and" in no way whatsoever mandates or even implies order, thus this verse in no way at all mandates that FIRST a receipient must repent and only after that may they be baptized. Thus, this verse you keep posting does nothing, absolutely nothing whatsoever, to support the prohibition of infants from baptism. What you keep doing is hoping all will ignore the word actually in the Bible (and) and replace it with the word you wish was there (then). You have nothing to support this recent tradition of a very few Christians, this focused prohibition from Baptism of those under the age of X.

i



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shouting it doesn't change a thing sorry ..

(AGAIN- i have not given ANY prohibition of infant baptism -you seem to hold to that little misdirecting lie for some reason . )

can you please tell me where the scriptures instruct us via the gospel .. to ONLY be baptised ?
no- you can . because it doesn't .

so no matter which way you twist and turn it or shout about it .. you cannot separate repentance out of the picture .
and since we have well established that a baby cannot even know about sin in order to repent of it - when the child gets old enough to know ,they wil then need to repent and be baptised (sprinkling isn't baptism any way ) ..
so again, telling a person who has not repented that they are saved becaseu they were sprinkled as a baby .. is a lie .
im not going to lie to people about a mater of the utmost importance . i don't care if you were sprinkled as a baby ..
if you want to know how to be saved then i wil tel you as the scripture does

repent , be baptised and you will receive the Holy Ghost . -it is scripture ,so i will preach it as the lord has said "repentance for the forgivness of sin is to be preached - and baptism is for the remission of sin . receiving the holy Ghost is God's acknowledgement and his seal upon the sincerely repentant heart .

 

[Lamb]

Who here says only be baptized? Pastors won't baptize an infant if the parents do not promise to bring up the child in God's Word so that he may learn. Baptizing and teaching go hand in hand.

 

[TurtleHare]

Alithis we have given verses showing that babies can have faith so I wonder if you believe someone comes to faith when they repent how does that reconcile with the verses of Jesus saying babies can have faith?

 

[Josiah]

so no matter which way you twist and turn it or shout about it .. you cannot separate repentance out of the picture .

No matter how often you quote this isolated verse with the word "and" in it, you still fail to show that the word is wrong and should rather have been "then." Your quoting this does nothing - absolutely nothing whatsoever - to support any prohibition from infants being baptized.

a baby cannot

So what? Your whole premise is that this single isolated verse is wrong.... that while it says "and" ... well, it should say "then." Your whole premise is that repentance must come before baptism - yet you not only can't find a single verse that says that, you actually keep quoting a verse that indicates no such thing.

A baby cannot choose Christ. Nor can a 13 year old. Or a 23 year old. Or a 53 year old. NO ONE (the Bible says) CAN (is even remotely capable) of even saying "Jesus is Lord" UNLESS the Holy Spirit causes it. Your whole hi-jacking effort to say Jesus doesn't save us up we have to do X, Y, Z to bring about our OWN salvation is wrong - but it's only hi-jacking. This thread is not about whether the savior is self (salvation resulting from what WE do - such as repenting), it's about the recent prohibition of a few Christians to infant baptism.

All you can find is a single verse - that you isolate and repeat endlessly - that actually renders your whole point, your entire premise to be baseless. Sure, the verse would help you if the verse said "repent and ONLY AFTER THAT be baptized" or "Repent and THEN, AFTER THAT, be baptized." But it doesn't. You know that. I know that. The whole world knows that. It doesn't at all - even remotely - support your point that repentance must come first. You simply don't like the word in the verse you endless repeat ("and").... you simply wish to substitute a word not in the text ("then").




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[Alithis]

Alithis we have given verses showing that babies can have faith so I wonder if you believe someone comes to faith when they repent how does that reconcile with the verses of Jesus saying babies can have faith?

i have no idea what your problem really is ?
i accept and declare the word of God and the message of the gospel of the lord Jesus christ . why you defy it ..speaks very loudly .

he says .. repentance for the forgivness of sin is to be preached
he says ..repent be baptised and you will receive the holy ghost

i accept that i cannot say they did not baptize babies in the book of acts
i also accept that you cannot say they did -it is assumption either way .

i accept what the word of God plainly states .
i accept then that whether a person is sprinkled (which is not baptism any way ) as a baby, holds no sway on thier need to repent and be correctly baptized once they comprehend the need to do so in order to be obedient to the Gospel message .

i also accept that the bible gives absolutely NO directive for the parents to take an oath of any kind in regard to baptism . the spiritual implications of doing so brings a person under a bandage to that oath from which they often must be delivered later on (obviously no one read the link i posted very early on in this thread ) you all keep adding traditions of men and superimposing them over the simply plain word of God . seems some desire thier "traditions " to hold more sway then gods word .

Your never going to get me to succumb to that erroneous thinking .

 

[Alithis]

No matter how often you quote this isolated verse with the word "and" in it, you still fail to show that the word is wrong and should rather have been "then." Your quoting this does nothing - absolutely nothing whatsoever - to support any prohibition from infants being baptized.







So what? Your whole premise is that this single isolated verse is wrong.... that while it says "and" ... well, it should say "then." Your whole premise is that repentance must come before baptism - yet you not only can't find a single verse that says that, you actually keep quoting a verse that indicates no such thing.

A baby cannot choose Christ. Nor can a 13 year old. Or a 23 year old. Or a 53 year old. NO ONE (the Bible says) CAN (is even remotely capable) of even saying "Jesus is Lord" UNLESS the Holy Spirit causes it. Your whole hi-jacking effort to say Jesus doesn't save us up we have to do X, Y, Z to bring about our OWN salvation is wrong - but it's only hi-jacking. This thread is not about whether the savior is self (salvation resulting from what WE do - such as repenting), it's about the recent prohibition of a few Christians to infant baptism.

All you can find is a single verse - that you isolate and repeat endlessly - that actually renders your whole point, your entire premise to be baseless. Sure, the verse would help you if the verse said "repent and ONLY AFTER THAT be baptized" or "Repent and THEN, AFTER THAT, be baptized." But it doesn't. You know that. I know that. The whole world knows that. It doesn't at all - even remotely - support your point that repentance must come first. You simply don't like the word in the verse you endless repeat ("and").... you simply wish to substitute a word not in the text ("then").




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well if you refuse to accept the word of God as it is recorded for us .instead desiring to place more credence on your traditions ..then you take that up with GOD -i wil not Do that .

 

[Alithis]

Who here says only be baptized? Pastors won't baptize an infant if the parents do not promise to bring up the child in God's Word so that he may learn. Baptizing and teaching go hand in hand.

baptism and repentance go hand in hand also . i have observed that repentance of sin is not a popular concept - you close an entire thread the topic was disliked so much .. so why would i be surprised that here also THAT PART of the topic is constantly resisted .

i love the lord JEsus .. thus i desire at all times to honour his word . he said "if you love me you wil obey me .
so if by his spirit he says - repent and be baptised .. then i will preach repent and be baptised .

since a baby canot repent .. there is no point baptising them as they cannot KNOW .. thier wil is not engaged thier faith not activated .

if we baptise babies without thier will or knowledge .. why should we not then increase error and baptise the dead also ? do any of you non catholics agree with baptising the dead ?

if not why not ?-since by your carnal reasoning it is ok to baptise a person without thier will of knowledge .

and i note a certain point has been ignored .. when a person sincerely repents ,the lord selas thier new life ihim with the promised holy Spirit . Just as in the book of acts .. they receive the holy Spiirt made evident by tongues at the time of that occurring .
so we receive this "seal" from God acknowledging his life in us when repentance is sincere of heart .
\i suspect many debating the topic here have not had that occur .. which begs the question, why not ?

 

[Josiah]

since a baby canot repent ..

1. Would you please quote Scripture that states that?

2. Would you please quote the Scripture that mandates one repents before they may receive baptism?




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[Josiah]

well if you refuse to accept the word of God as it is recorded for us

I accept it. It says "and".

You don't, you want to substitute the word "then."




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