The actual Body and Blood, or just symbolic?

[Romanos]

How do you view the act of Communion? Is it symbolic of what happened at the Last Supper, or do you believe in it transforming into the actual Body and Blood of Christ?

 

[psalms 91]

I believe it is symbolic

 

[George]

Eastern Orthodox believe in Transubstantiation.

 

[Lamb]

Luke 22:19, 1 Corinthians 11:24 This is My body which is given for you;

As a Lutheran I believe that when Jesus says "is" that He means it. The bread and wine are Christ's body and blood, because He says so.

 

[Hammster]

It's symbolic. Jesus said He is a door, vine, shepherd (which makes us sheep), etc. These are symbolic as well.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Josiah]

The Three Common Views....

Matthew 26:26-29

"Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread and blessed and broke it and gave it to the disciples and said, 'Take, eat, this is my body.' And he took the cup and when he had given thanks he gave it to them saying, 'Drink of it all of you, for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I will you, I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine again until I drink it with you in my father's kingdom." (see also Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:19-20)


1 Corinthians 11:23-29

The Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, 'This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' In the same way also the cup saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.' For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats or drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment upon himself."



There are three major "schools" on these in the West...


Real Presence: This view accepts these verses "as is" - with nothing added, deleted or substituted, and with no pagan philosophies or rejected prescience theories imposed or dogmatiozed. "Is" = is, every time (Real, present, exists). "Body" = body, every time. "Blood" = blood, every time. That's it. That's all. Body and blood IS... ARE..... thus present, real, there and thus received. While Real Presence technically doesn't mention the bread and wine or deal with that, it doesn't IN ANY SENSE deny such "exists" either - it's just insignificant. This view simply accepts all the words - as is, with no attempt to change some or ignore some or to impose some scientific concept or to "explain" away anything. It understands all this as "MYSTERY." It says only what Jesus and Paul says; questions are welcomed just left unanswered (dogmatically, anyway). THAT it is true is fully embraced; HOW it is true is left alone. This view is currently embraced by Lutherans, as well as some Anglicans and Methodist.


Transubstantiation: First expressed in 1134, first officially mentioned in 1214 and made dogma exclusively in the individual RC Denomination in 1551, it holds that the word "is" should be replaced by the words "CHANGED and/or CONVERTED and/or TRANSFORMED from one reality to a completely foreign different reality." It then holds that this CHANGE happens via an alchemic transubstantiation (from which comes the name the RCC gave for this view). This, however, causes a problem with the texts which mentions bread and wine AFTER the Consecration (in First Corinthians, MORE than before) in EXACTLY the same way as such is mentioned BEFORE the Consecration. This view thus replaces those words, too. Instead, this view holds that "bread" and "wine" be replaced with, an Aristotelian ACCIDENT or appearance or species of bread and wine but not really bread and wine at all - just the 'empty shell' of what is left over after the alchemic transubstantiation CHANGE. It denies that bread and wine are present in any full, literal, real sense (in spite of what the Bible says). Two pagan ideas are imposed: Transubstantiation and Accidents. Several words are deleted: "Is" "bread" and "wine" (the later two only after the Consecration). This view is the official Eucharistic dogma of the Roman Catholic Church since 1551. No other church holds to it.


Figurative/Symbolic/Memorial Presence: This view holds that the word "is" indicates a figure of speech and that there is a metaphor here. It insists and the bread and wine are here made SYMBOLS or FIGURES or memorials of His Body and Blood. Christ is not "present" at all (in any sense other than He always is present), but the bread and wine are now symbols of Christ and His sacrifice. It is often compared to the Old Covenant Passover Meal - a memorial to REMIND us of things. The terms "body" and "blood" so stressed by Jesus and Paul are simply stripped of their USUAL meaning and said to be "symbols" or "figures" or "memorials" of them. "Is" doesn't mean "is" but "a figure of." This view is typically associated with Zwingli. This view is now popular among modern American "Evangelicals" and frequently among modern Reformed/Calvinists. While NOT the RCC dogma, it's quite common among Catholics, too.




One might summerize the 3 common views this way:

LUTHERANS: Is.... Body..... Blood..... bread..... wine....... All are true, all are affirmed. It's mystery.

ROMAN CATHOLIC: Body.... Blood..... THEY are true and affirmed, but "is" doesn't mean that and the bread and wine actually aren't, they are Aristotelian Accidents instead. It's an alchemic Transubstatiation.

EVANGELICALS: Bread.... Wine.... THEY are true and affirmed, but "is" doesn't mean that and the Body and Blood actually aren't, they are symbols instead. It's metaphor.




It should be noted that many would speak of 2 other views, neither common in the West. The EOC has a view somewhat between the Catholic and Lutheran views; it embraces that there is some change in the elements (not just in what is present) BUT rejects Transubstantiation because it leaves the nature and means and character of the change entirely and completely to MYSTERY and insists that this 'change' is unimportant (rather than dogma), their emphasis (like Lutherans) is entirely on the Real Presence of the Body and Blood. Calvin's view is difficult to understand, and Reformed have developed it different; it flows from his essential rejection of Chalcadon and his insistence on separating the Two Natures of Christ. But today, his view has almost entirely been forgotten; nearly all Reformed are Zwinglian on this and agree with modern Evangelicals.





- Josiah

 

[Tigger]

Real presence for sure.

 

[BruceLeiter]

How do you view the act of Communion? Is it symbolic of what happened at the Last Supper, or do you believe in it transforming into the actual Body and Blood of Christ?

We should look at the context of that chapter (John 6) in the whole gospel. Was Jesus speaking figuratively in his other claims of deity (the other "I am" statements)?

Jhn_6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Jhn_6:41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”
Jhn_6:48 I am the bread of life.
Jhn_6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

Jhn_8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Jhn_10:7 So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
Jhn_10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.
Jhn_10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Jhn_10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,

Jhn_11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,

Jhn_14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Jhn_15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
Jhn_15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

When Jesus says that he is bread, light, door, shepherd, resurrection, life, the way, truth, life, and vine, he is using metaphors that compare everyday things and people with spiritual realities. Therefore, his reference to bread is the truth that he satisfies our spiritual hunger pictured by the Lord's Supper. In his claims, he is stating that he is God with the Father and the Holy Spirit, who is the one Source of all spiritual benefits through our spiritual connection with him.

 

[Edward429451]

How do you view the act of Communion? Is it symbolic of what happened at the Last Supper, or do you believe in it transforming into the actual Body and Blood of Christ?

Of course it is symbolic, however, we do not know much about the spiritual realm so as far as we know, something takes places in the spiritual realm at the same time?

What we do know, is that, Jesus turned water into wine, Jesus, multiplied food on earth. So I'm not too easy to dismiss the possibility that in the spiritual realm our wine and bread has turned into something else. This very well could be.

Consider this. When anyone says the word "Communion" we immediately think of crackers and wine, but in reality, communion means something else! Coming into communion with the Lord is visiting with Him and coming into communion with Him. He lives inside of us so we have become as one.

Remember, even though you are on earth where you are, we are also seated in Heavenly places with our Lord Jesus. So we are one with Him in heaven and one with Him in the natural realm on earth.

How does that work? I am here where I am. I can not see myself sitting with Jesus in heaven. Well, I don't know, those things and how they work are a mystery to me at this time. But we know a few things about the spiritual realm and spirits. Like for instance, wasn't it like, 2000 spirits possessed a man that Jesus cast all of those spirits out of the man and He let the spirits go into the herd of pigs that were feeding nearby. So spirits can come together within one. But we know that, it says it all through scripture, be one with the Lord. God is a spirit, we are spirits living in a flesh body, so having communion with Jesus is coming into communion with Jesus and joining together as one, for we have received Him into us and accepted Him.

We know that God is omnipresent. He is right there sitting beside you. But! He is also sitting here with me. So Jesus could also easily be sitting with us in heavenly places. Oh, we don't get to be able to listen to (them!) talking, for we are in the flesh...Hmm.

So maybe there are other things that we still don't understand how it works in the spiritual realm? Maybe our crackers and wine do literally become His Blood and Flesh in the spiritual realm which has a higher significance than and man made wine or crackers do?

There's a lot we don't know yet, for we are to hold our faith in the Lord, that what He says is true. I've thought a lot about this and now when I partake in communion, before I ingest it, in faith I hold the wine up and declare it to be...this IS the blood of Jesus. And the cracker, this IS the flesh of Christ like that just so I can be in agreement with what the Lord has said. I trust Him. It's a good thing He said.

But man normally lives as a carnal man, in the flesh. Even me. Carnal really only means of the 5 senses that we have, see, hear, touch, smell and taste. Nothing spiritual at all, carnal. And even though Jesus lives inside of me, does that mean that I am in communion with Him always? No, man lives in the carnal world. To come into communion with the Lord's spirit which is within me, takes a certain focus. A focus upon the Spirit. The time is here to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. And what did Jesus say? As often as you do this, do it in remembrance of Me. He practically said we are not in communion with Him at all times. I read that to mean, as often as we eat.

When we are mindful of the presence of the Lord we are as one and in communion with Him. Jesus wants communion with us 24/7! (pray unceasingly!) It is when we are aware of the Lord's presence that we become one with Him and come into communion with Him. So cultivate a sensitivity to the awareness of the presence of God.

The cracker and wine are symbolic (carnally) because it gives us something to do that cause us to quiet our mind and begin listening and come into His presence which is the ral purpose of symbolic communion.

Most Christians come into communion with their friends way more than the Lord. Ever been invited over to dinner with your friend(s)? You show up and come into their presence and eat together. You are aware of his presence. You are, in communion with him/them.

No wonder the Lord said as often as you eat do this in remembrance of Me! He's begging us to come into communion with Him. Be aware of Him and acknowledge Him and His presence. Always.

 

[Frankj]

Consider the deeper meaning of Leviticus 17:11 when thinking on this, and the perfect fulfillment of the Law.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Of course it is symbolic, however, we do not know much about the spiritual realm so as far as we know, something takes places in the spiritual realm at the same time?

What we do know, is that, Jesus turned water into wine, Jesus, multiplied food on earth. So I'm not too easy to dismiss the possibility that in the spiritual realm our wine and bread has turned into something else. This very well could be.

Consider this. When anyone says the word "Communion" we immediately think of crackers and wine, but in reality, communion means something else! Coming into communion with the Lord is visiting with Him and coming into communion with Him. He lives inside of us so we have become as one.

Remember, even though you are on earth where you are, we are also seated in Heavenly places with our Lord Jesus. So we are one with Him in heaven and one with Him in the natural realm on earth.

How does that work? I am here where I am. I can not see myself sitting with Jesus in heaven. Well, I don't know, those things and how they work are a mystery to me at this time. But we know a few things about the spiritual realm and spirits. Like for instance, wasn't it like, 2000 spirits possessed a man that Jesus cast all of those spirits out of the man and He let the spirits go into the herd of pigs that were feeding nearby. So spirits can come together within one. But we know that, it says it all through scripture, be one with the Lord. God is a spirit, we are spirits living in a flesh body, so having communion with Jesus is coming into communion with Jesus and joining together as one, for we have received Him into us and accepted Him.

We know that God is omnipresent. He is right there sitting beside you. But! He is also sitting here with me. So Jesus could also easily be sitting with us in heavenly places. Oh, we don't get to be able to listen to (them!) talking, for we are in the flesh...Hmm.

So maybe there are other things that we still don't understand how it works in the spiritual realm? Maybe our crackers and wine do literally become His Blood and Flesh in the spiritual realm which has a higher significance than and man made wine or crackers do?

There's a lot we don't know yet, for we are to hold our faith in the Lord, that what He says is true. I've thought a lot about this and now when I partake in communion, before I ingest it, in faith I hold the wine up and declare it to be...this IS the blood of Jesus. And the cracker, this IS the flesh of Christ like that just so I can be in agreement with what the Lord has said. I trust Him. It's a good thing He said.

But man normally lives as a carnal man, in the flesh. Even me. Carnal really only means of the 5 senses that we have, see, hear, touch, smell and taste. Nothing spiritual at all, carnal. And even though Jesus lives inside of me, does that mean that I am in communion with Him always? No, man lives in the carnal world. To come into communion with the Lord's spirit which is within me, takes a certain focus. A focus upon the Spirit. The time is here to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. And what did Jesus say? As often as you do this, do it in remembrance of Me. He practically said we are not in communion with Him at all times. I read that to mean, as often as we eat.

When we are mindful of the presence of the Lord we are as one and in communion with Him. Jesus wants communion with us 24/7! (pray unceasingly!) It is when we are aware of the Lord's presence that we become one with Him and come into communion with Him. So cultivate a sensitivity to the awareness of the presence of God.

The cracker and wine are symbolic (carnally) because it gives us something to do that cause us to quiet our mind and begin listening and come into His presence which is the ral purpose of symbolic communion.

Most Christians come into communion with their friends way more than the Lord. Ever been invited over to dinner with your friend(s)? You show up and come into their presence and eat together. You are aware of his presence. You are, in communion with him/them.

No wonder the Lord said as often as you eat do this in remembrance of Me! He's begging us to come into communion with Him. Be aware of Him and acknowledge Him and His presence. Always.

You seem to base your communion conclusion on speculation about the Bible's silence. That's no basis that's at all sound. Read my post above for a different perspective that's based on the Bible, not its silence or any speculation, @Edward429451.

 

[FredVB]

I would not base argument about reality on silence in the Bible. There are many things in reality not mentioned in the Bible. But if there is something important to doctrine the Bible will be clear about it. Doctrines that do not have that clear basis from the Bible have an interpretation not better than any flimsy idea from some singular passage that could be understood in different ways.

It is a big assumption that what is meant is Jesus is the material that millions of people consume, even regularly, for nearly two thousand years. That would be much more material than Jesus's body would have been when he was with his followers on this earth among us.

 

[Edward429451]

I would not base argument about reality on silence in the Bible. There are many things in reality not mentioned in the Bible. But if there is something important to doctrine the Bible will be clear about it. Doctrines that do not have that clear basis from the Bible have an interpretation not better than any flimsy idea from some singular passage that could be understood in different ways.

It is a big assumption that what is meant is Jesus is the material that millions of people consume, even regularly, for nearly two thousand years. That would be much more material than Jesus's body would have been when he was with his followers on this earth among us.

I think what it amounts to, is there is an effect in the spiritual realm that is probably very significant that we dont realize what it is. Just as scripture says even now are we seated in heavenly places with our Lord. We can't fathom that because we don't know much about the spiritual realm. All we know is that, it must be true.

Humans, even Christians have a poor view of themselves. Our righteousness is as filthy rags, and most Christians will identify themself as a sinner (even though they've been forgiven)

I've heard two testimoies from different people who were taken up in spirit to heaven for a visit, and somehow it came up in conversation, how do you see us, Lord. What do I look like in heaven or in your eyes. Basically that was the question and both times they were shown how they appear in heaven and it's eerie how similar they were.

They were bathed in a golden light and radiated this light. It was one man and one woman. The man saw himself glowing and clothed in what appeared to be golden armor. It shocked him so much, that, that is how the Lord sees him that he felt unworthy and disappointed in himself so he asked the Lord to take it down he didnt want to see it anymore it was so far out of his comfort zone, lol.

I *think* we all know that our Prayers have very curious and significant reactions in the spiritual realm, right? Smells like incense to God? so partaking in Communion with the Lord and coming into communion with Him...may be beyond our understanding at this time. My question was why wouldn't the Lord want us to be in communion with Him every day?

That reminds me, I keep a bottle of red wine and crackers or hosts around for this very reason. It must be that time! Praise the Lord!

 

[Charlie24]

How do you view the act of Communion? Is it symbolic of what happened at the Last Supper, or do you believe in it transforming into the actual Body and Blood of Christ?

Christ gave us many spiritual symbolisms, communion is just one of many.

 

[Edward429451]

Christ gave us many spiritual symbolisms, communion is just one of many.

I think it's less about the ritual of the wind and bread and more about coming into Communion with Him and His presence. You sort of feel His presence. You certainly perceive it.

 

[Charlie24]

I think it's less about the ritual of the wind and bread and more about coming into Communion with Him and His presence. You sort of feel His presence. You certainly perceive it.

I feel that communion is a time to remember what your faith is in.

He gave His body and blood for us to make it possible for us to be saved.

Faith in what He did there and His resurrection is what saves us.

Communion is a time to reflect on your faith, that it's in the proper place for salvation.

 

[Edward429451]

I feel that communion is a time to remember what your faith is in.

He gave His body and blood for us to make it possible for us to be saved.

Faith in what He did there and His resurrection is what saves us.

Communion is a time to reflect on your faith, that it's in the proper place for salvation.

well look up communion in the dictionary. Communion can be defined at least 3 different ways.
A ritual done with Wine and Eucharist as the Lord's Supper.
Sharing a common life presence with our Lord.
As a Mystery.

So there is a deeper spiritual meaning to communion the way man sees it and the way the Lord sees it.

When you have intimate moments with your wife, you are coming into communion with her, and so forth. The Wine & Crackers and praying is just to get us focused on the Lord.

 

[Charlie24]

well look up communion in the dictionary. Communion can be defined at least 3 different ways.
A ritual done with Wine and Eucharist as the Lord's Supper.
Sharing a common life presence with our Lord.
As a Mystery.

So there is a deeper spiritual meaning to communion the way man sees it and the way the Lord sees it.

When you have intimate moments with your wife, you are coming into communion with her, and so forth. The Wine & Crackers and praying is just to get us focused on the Lord.

Sounds like a Catholicism definition. Anyway, I reflect on the purpose of His given body and blood as I see it.

 

[Edward429451]

Sounds like a Catholicism definition. Anyway, I reflect on the purpose of His given body and blood as I see it.

Well I'm about as far away from being catholic that one can get. I see the idea that His blood covers our sin and the cracker represents healing because by His stripes we were healed by His broken body.

I can almost feel the cleansing action and healing action when I injest them.

 

[Lamb]

Jesus said, "This is my body given for you" and He said, "Drink this, all of you. This is my blood, God's new covenant poured out for many people for the forgiveness of sins."

“For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself” (1 Corinthians 11:29)

In Holy Communion, we are actually IN COMMUNION with God as He gives us His body to eat and His blood to drink, in, with and under the bread and wine. When Jesus said This is...He means it.