I don't find belief to be volitional and I don't understand why the majority does

Lucian Hodoboc

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Divine revelation in the form of the Bible. That's answered in the Bible itself.
How does He prove that it's divine?
 

Albion

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In an absolute sense, it cannot be proven. Nor, for that matter, can I prove that you exist and vice-versa. But in the real world we all make assumptions based on strong probabilities.

In the case of the Bible, we're talking about the most influential -- and most criticized -- book ever written, and it's stood up to challenge after challenge.

In addition, it's remarkable as a historical record. Most of the sacred writings of the other great religions are merely collections of sayings or advice, etc. Therefore, it's sensible to trust the Bible in what it says, and in what it says of itself. Of course, that doesn't mean that if any individual chooses otherwise, that such isn't his right.
 

tango

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What did they have to lose by accepting Jesus as the Messiah?

The same as anyone else would lose by accepting a false Messiah. If you don't believe Jesus is the Messiah (and the Jews don't believe that he is) then you'd be accepting something you didn't believe was true.

"I am the Messiah" is a pretty bold claim. I don't know about you but I wouldn't follow someone just because they said I should. In Deuteronomy (I think chapters 13 and 18) there are specific warnings about false leaders who will come. It's not unreasonable that the Jews would consider whether someone making bold Messianic claims is actually the promised Messiah or an imposter.
 

Lucian Hodoboc

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The same as anyone else would lose by accepting a false Messiah. If you don't believe Jesus is the Messiah (and the Jews don't believe that he is) then you'd be accepting something you didn't believe was true.

"I am the Messiah" is a pretty bold claim. I don't know about you but I wouldn't follow someone just because they said I should. In Deuteronomy (I think chapters 13 and 18) there are specific warnings about false leaders who will come. It's not unreasonable that the Jews would consider whether someone making bold Messianic claims is actually the promised Messiah or an imposter.
My question was addressed to Messy, who implied that the Pharisees intentionally rejected Jesus as the Messiah, despite knowing that He truly was the Messiah, as opposed to Paul, who only did it out of ignorance. To me, it doesn't really make sense for the people who were expecting the Messiah to recognize Jesus as the Messiah and intentionally reject Him.
 

tango

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My question was addressed to Messy, who implied that the Pharisees intentionally rejected Jesus as the Messiah, despite knowing that He truly was the Messiah, as opposed to Paul, who only did it out of ignorance. To me, it doesn't really make sense for the people who were expecting the Messiah to recognize Jesus as the Messiah and intentionally reject Him.

When you're talking about the Pharisees in particular, the question is whether they knew he was the Messiah at all. Given modern day Jews don't believe Jesus is the Messiah it's certainly possible that at least some first century Jews didn't believe it either.

If you're expecting someone, then you see that someone then you'd need a reason to reject them. From the Pharisees' perspective they did have reasons to reject Jesus - he wasn't what they were expecting and accepting him would cost them the status and prestige they enjoyed. In that regard they weren't so different to the rich young ruler who walked away rather than getting rid of his worldly wealth.
 

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rstrats

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Possibly. And if not, that's what's being said of someone else when the wording is as it originally was presented.
How is it that you don't know if that was your implication?
 

Uncle_Sol

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Damning people to eternal torture because of lacking faith in the current context of our current existence in a fallen world filled with deceit is absolutely unfair. If a criteria were to be chosen for deciding salvation, it should be reason. We should be provided with sufficient proof of the reality of Gospel and those who, in spite of said proof, rejected it or chose to ignore it, should be judged.

Blessed are those who believe? Why? Who not those who reason? Why not those who obey after having received satisfying proof?
According to John Henry Newman your belief (on any subject) has to be the fruit of your assent to your degrees of your inference; which I agree with.

What kind of lack of "faith" got some ordinary people damned, may sometimes be a projected bad interpretation by browbeaters seizing the media or other power.

I think the Old and New Testaments are a diatribe against bad quality of religion being pushed by organisations or equivocating authorities. Jesus commended dill tithing, but only when accompanied by kindness and sincerity, as Holy Spirit help is the condition for His ascension. (This is just me.)
 

Uncle_Sol

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The fact that Jesus always spoke in parables instead of being clear and concise like Moses was might have also contributed to their unbelief.
He couldn't act like Moses head on because that was the job of the religion authorities; they suspected Him of exactly that. Moses' ceremonial law was itself a dark picture, meaning to stand in for moral relating. Jesus' news was off at a tangent; completely fresh lateral thinking (news of Holy Spirit help because this world is contingent); which however the prophets had intuited. Parables create free, individual thinking space and time indeed. "Un" belief is relative; it is a provisional degree of belief; most importantly it can be owned. Ratty nuns customarily, wrongly, have a downer on Thomas (of the spectacularly bad timing) who asked Jesus the best questions and to whom He gave the best answers of anyone.
 

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The fact that Jesus always spoke in parables instead of being clear and concise like Moses was might have also contributed to their unbelief.

Jesus spoke in parables to conceal big secrets from the ordinary people. Jesus was an Alchemist who knew how to make the "Tree Of Life" / Philosopher's Stone and he only taught his disciples those secrets/mysteries:

Matt 13:
"And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."

You're not supposed to understand the parables unless you've been initiated into the "mysteries". The parables relate to parts of those mysteries.

For example, the parable of the corn of wheat:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit."

This is a key principle of alchemy, the "putrefaction" stage in which in order for Nature to remake a thing, it must first decompose and putrefy totally. That's what Jesus is really saying here. It is an alchemical reference.

Parable of New Cloth on Old Garment - Matthew 9:16-17

  • “No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse. Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”

This highlights the basic principle of fermentation which is a core part of the Great Work of alchemy. It's warning that if you don't take the necessary precautions the alchemy vessels (glass flasks etc) will explode/burst thereby ruining the work.

Parable of The Mustard Seed - Matthew 13:31-32

  • He told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches.”

Some alchemy knowledge is needed to understand this one. Basically, in the Great Work of alchemy we are creating a substance in the flask that acts as a "magnet" for the quintessence, the stuff that pervades every living thing. If you do the work correctly then it will attract that quintessence into the substance which will transform the substance. The parable is an allegory for this. The mustard seed and plant are the particular substance being made in the alchemist's flask and the birds are the quintessance taht will be attracted to it.

Parable of Pearl of Great Price - Matthew 13:45-46

  • “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.

The Philosopher's Stone has many different names. Tree of Life, Alkahest, Ambrosia, Nectar, Soma and so on. ANotehr of it's names it the "Pearl Of Great Price". When you have the Philosopher's Stone you have the most valuable thing on Earth, better than any riches.
Confirmation of the name here:



Essentially, Jesus was a mystic/alchemist with great esoteric knowledge. He had the Philosopher's Stone and used it to heal people and help them. At the same time he didn't share that knowledge with ordinary people. Possibly because it's very powerful knowledge and in the wrong hands could see much evil occur in the world. Possibly because he wanted people to believe he was special, had super powers etc so they would follow him.
 

Frankj

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Jesus spoke in parables to conceal big secrets from the ordinary people. Jesus was an Alchemist who knew how to make the "Tree Of Life" / Philosopher's Stone and he only taught his disciples those secrets/mysteries:

Matt 13:
"And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."

You're not supposed to understand the parables unless you've been initiated into the "mysteries". The parables relate to parts of those mysteries.

For example, the parable of the corn of wheat:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit."

This is a key principle of alchemy, the "putrefaction" stage in which in order for Nature to remake a thing, it must first decompose and putrefy totally. That's what Jesus is really saying here. It is an alchemical reference.

Parable of New Cloth on Old Garment - Matthew 9:16-17

  • “No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse. Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”

This highlights the basic principle of fermentation which is a core part of the Great Work of alchemy. It's warning that if you don't take the necessary precautions the alchemy vessels (glass flasks etc) will explode/burst thereby ruining the work.

Parable of The Mustard Seed - Matthew 13:31-32

  • He told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches.”

Some alchemy knowledge is needed to understand this one. Basically, in the Great Work of alchemy we are creating a substance in the flask that acts as a "magnet" for the quintessence, the stuff that pervades every living thing. If you do the work correctly then it will attract that quintessence into the substance which will transform the substance. The parable is an allegory for this. The mustard seed and plant are the particular substance being made in the alchemist's flask and the birds are the quintessance taht will be attracted to it.

Parable of Pearl of Great Price - Matthew 13:45-46

  • “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.

The Philosopher's Stone has many different names. Tree of Life, Alkahest, Ambrosia, Nectar, Soma and so on. ANotehr of it's names it the "Pearl Of Great Price". When you have the Philosopher's Stone you have the most valuable thing on Earth, better than any riches.
Confirmation of the name here:



Essentially, Jesus was a mystic/alchemist with great esoteric knowledge. He had the Philosopher's Stone and used it to heal people and help them. At the same time he didn't share that knowledge with ordinary people. Possibly because it's very powerful knowledge and in the wrong hands could see much evil occur in the world. Possibly because he wanted people to believe he was special, had super powers etc so they would follow him.
You seem to have some rather strange beliefs for someone that calls himself a Humanist.

Perhaps you are not?
 

Mercury

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You seem to have some rather strange beliefs for someone that calls himself a Humanist.

Perhaps you are not?

Alchemy is not a belief system or religion like Christianity. It is practical science, using Nature, allowing Nature to do what it does naturally. No belief is required. It's evidential. You can choose to do the work and see what happens or you can choose not to, just as you can choose to get on a bus or not to. Why shouldn't a Humanist be interested in science that is beneficial to mankind?
 

Frankj

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Alchemy is not a belief system or religion like Christianity. It is practical science, using Nature, allowing Nature to do what it does naturally. No belief is required. It's evidential. You can choose to do the work and see what happens or you can choose not to, just as you can choose to get on a bus or not to. Why shouldn't a Humanist be interested in science that is beneficial to mankind?
So show us some examples of your works using that practical science, something maybe on the order of real and observable objective cause/effect demonstrations of it doing something practical in the real world that all can see and not question.

Over the many decades of my life, I've heard many esoteric claims by many different people who, when called on to demonstrate them never did. Show you are different if it is not the same with yourself.
 

Mercury

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If someone showed you a picture of a paracetamol would that convince you that it can take away a headache?
If you want to see the various products of alchemy then go to alchemy centred website where you'll find lots of pictures of laboratory apparatus, pictures of the work as it progresses through the stages and so on.
 

Frankj

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If someone showed you a picture of a paracetamol would that convince you that it can take away a headache?
If you want to see the various products of alchemy then go to alchemy centred website where you'll find lots of pictures of laboratory apparatus, pictures of the work as it progresses through the stages and so on.
Sorry, but this seems to be an admission that you simply can't do what you say you can do through alchemy.

FWIW, relieving a headache is often more subjective than objective (ever hear of the placebo effect?) and Tylenol is not a product of alchemy, it's a product of real medical science using real scientific methods of development.
 

Mercury

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Sorry, but this seems to be an admission that you simply can't do what you say you can do through alchemy.

FWIW, relieving a headache is often more subjective than objective (ever hear of the placebo effect?) and Tylenol is not a product of alchemy, it's a product of real medical science using real scientific methods of development.

You appear to have missed my point. I was trying to explain (poorly obviously) that pictures of alchemy works wouldn't prove anything to you any more than a picture of a paracetamol tablet would prove it can do anything, So when you asked to be shown examples of alchemy work what were you really asking?
 

Frankj

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You appear to have missed my point. I was trying to explain (poorly obviously) that pictures of alchemy works wouldn't prove anything to you any more than a picture of a paracetamol tablet would prove it can do anything, So when you asked to be shown examples of alchemy work what were you really asking?
OK, we all state things poorly sometimes.

But something like a picture of a skyscraper certainly indicates that real science works, or a rocket launch, or an automobile driving down the road. These things are not imaginary.

If, as you claim, alchemy is a real thing then you should be able to demonstrate it as such.

Other wise it is all just subjective, that is to say it is nothing but imagination with no observable real world effects.
 

Mercury

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OK, we all state things poorly sometimes.

But something like a picture of a skyscraper certainly indicates that real science works, or a rocket launch, or an automobile driving down the road. These things are not imaginary.

If, as you claim, alchemy is a real thing then you should be able to demonstrate it as such.

Other wise it is all just subjective, that is to say it is nothing but imagination with no observable real world effects.


I don't see the point of doing this but if you need to play this pantomime here you go


AlchemyImages.png
 

Frankj

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I don't see the point of doing this but if you need to play this pantomime here you go


View attachment 2151
I did far more than that in my bedroom with my chemistry set and a few additions to it when was 10.

I don't see that as supporting anything you claim about alchemy or any other other magical stuff.

I see nothing out of the ordinary taking place, something anyone can do no matter what their belief or lack of it is.
 

Mercury

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Which is exactly why I said posting pictures would be pointless as pictures are not proof of anything just as a picture of a paracetamol tablet isn't proof that it's a cure for a headache. There's no picture therefore that could satisfy your needs here.

Ironically I could ask you to post up pictures that support or prove the existence of the Biblical god and we'd be in the same situation.
 
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