Prayer and God's Will - Why Do So Many Christians Misunderstand?

JustTheFacts

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I'm speaking only from my personal perspective and understanding. I've already mentioned that, for me personally, the mere suggestion that God would inflict a horrible disease on someone and make them suffer purely for the purpose of seeing if someone else prays for their healing, would be an utterly sick and twisted thing for any god to do. It's perverse. I can not for one second believe that an all-powerful and all-loving entity would ever make a human terribly sick just to see if someone else would pray for them. How can you even contemplate such a thing?!
Why is everything bad God's fault to you? Someone may have made a choice and came into contact with someone who was sick. Someone might be choosing to be sexual active with numerous people and catch a horrible disease like AIDS. You are quick to blame God for every bad thing in the world, yet I haven't yet heard you thank God for the good. Sorry, on this planet that God created you will have to take the good with the bad. A friend of mine who has terrible multiple afflictions will say, "I've been blessed more than I deserve," when asked how he is doing. You should change your stinkin thinkin.
 

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Carl Jung put it, "Until what's unconscious becomes conscious, it steers your life as if fate."
 

Uncle_Sol

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But it may be God's will to heal if only someone prays.
This got dumbed down by mean hearted preachers, the problem for belief on all matters. The shorthand slogan without the longhand reality in our souls.
 

Mercury

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Why is everything bad God's fault to you?

Well it isn't in point of fact because I don't believe in your particular god. I'm debting from the point of view of exposing the ridiculous Church driven narrative for what it is and helping those who have been sucked in by it to think critically.

So from the Christian perspective, yes everything is God's fault in the sense that he either directly causes everything to happen or permits it to happen. That's the doctrine I'm afraid and it's a very bitter pill to swallow if you're one of the unfortunates stricked with debilitating diseases.
Even harder if you're a child or adult who has suffered repeated sexual abuse. In your example, the horrible condition AIDS exists ONLY because God either created it or permitted it to be created. Again that's the doctrine which Christians are required to believe though most tend to gloss over that uncomfortable fact.

Myself, I don't believe the Church version of reality (or indeed of Christianity) and now that I know what the Bible tells us in regards to the Tree Of Life, hidden allegorically in the text, I know the Church is a fraud. I count myself lucky to have escaped it's psychological manipulations.

Someone may have made a choice and came into contact with someone who was sick.

Yep and your "God" would have had to cause or permit BOTH the actual sickness in the 2nd person and the visit by the 1st person.
Do you not see that this is what your doctrine requires you to believe?

Someone might be choosing to be sexual active with numerous people and catch a horrible disease like AIDS.

Yep and your "God" would have had to cause or permit AIDS to come into existance and be spread among humans


You are quick to blame God for every bad thing in the world

I am merely highlighting your own doctrine, the Christian doctrine that states that God is in charge of everything and that nothing whatsoever happens without him causing it or permitting it to happen. If you refuse to believe this you are refusing the doctrine and suggesting that God is neither Omnipotent or Omniscient or Omnibenevolent. Which is it?

yet I haven't yet heard you thank God for the good.

There is no good or bad. Those are merely human constructs that humans need to operate effectively in society. The universe is completely impartial. It doesn't care who or what lives or dies for in truth everything just continues regardless and gets recycled or transformed. Everything comes from energy and that energy is being transformed all the time endlessly, into different forms. But despite that endless chaos, no energy is ever lost and no energy is created. The same energy is going round and round and round eternally and you and I are just a part of that. You are already billions of years old for everything that makes up your body, spirit and soul has been here in the universe from the beginning, it's just that you've already been many many different forms before you were transformed into your current human form. When your body decays and perishes you'll be transformed into another form and this will go on and on and on.


Sorry, on this planet that God created you will have to take the good with the bad.

This planet is the result of energy transformations just like everything else. So was the sun and the moon and all the myriad of stars and galaxies we see around us. There is no magical Santa Claus like entity that is either in charge of it all or which created it all. It's a whirling maelstrom of chaos and constant change. Mankind is an insignificant drop in the ocean of time in the history of this universe.

A friend of mine who has terrible multiple afflictions will say, "I've been blessed more than I deserve," when asked how he is doing.

Such is the power of the psychological manipulation of religious indoctrination. It gives artificial hope to those who have great needs or who need to fill holes in their lives because they can not stand to face reality.

You should change your stinkin thinkin.

Oh I did. I had the courage and humility to accept that the Christian defacto message peddled by the Church was a complete nonsense and stood back from it and resolved to search down other avenues for the truth. That search took me down many rabbit holes and eventually came full circle back to the Bible and other religious texts but I was now in a position to see and understand the secret messages hidden within them and to see that the text around them serves as padding to conceal those messages. I was able to see anew who this character of Jesus was, how he performed the seeming miracles that he did, what he knew and what he shared with his disciples and ultimately what the Tree of Life is and how it may be obtained by ordinary man.
 

JustTheFacts

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I am merely highlighting your own doctrine, the Christian doctrine that states that God is in charge of everything and that nothing whatsoever happens without him causing it or permitting it to happen. If you refuse to believe this you are refusing the doctrine and suggesting that God is neither Omnipotent or Omniscient or Omnibenevolent. Which is it?
In fact, you haven't highlighted anything but your own hatred of anything God. You keep referring the Christian doctrine and which Christian doctrine are you specifically referring to. The stuff in your head or a specific faction of the Church that you are angry with. It's obvious that you hate your life and you blame it all on God rather than taking responsibility for your own choices and outcome.
 

JustTheFacts

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I am merely highlighting your own doctrine, the Christian doctrine that states that God is in charge of everything and that nothing whatsoever happens without him causing it or permitting it to happen. If you refuse to believe this you are refusing the doctrine and suggesting that God is neither Omnipotent or Omniscient or Omnibenevolent. Which is it?
In fact, you haven't highlighted anything but your own hatred of anything God. You keep referring the Christian doctrine and which Christian doctrine are you specifically referring to. The stuff in your head or a specific faction of the Church that you are angry with. It's obvious that you hate your life and you blame it all on God rather than taking responsibility for your own choices.
I was able to see anew who this character of Jesus was, how he performed the seeming miracles that he did, what he knew and what he shared with his disciples and ultimately what the Tree of Life is and how it may be obtained by ordinary man.
So you stated you did some homework and found what? I agree with you that Christian religion in many cases does more damage than good, but then I believe that the Christian faith through Jesus is the most precious thing in life. Christian religion and Christian faith are two separate things and I hope you can resolve that for yourself and get to a position of peace through faith in Jesus Christ.
 

Mercury

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In fact, you haven't highlighted anything but your own hatred of anything God. You keep referring the Christian doctrine and which Christian doctrine are you specifically referring to. The stuff in your head or a specific faction of the Church that you are angry with. It's obvious that you hate your life and you blame it all on God rather than taking responsibility for your own choices and outcome.
What a strange load of stuff to spout! I don't hate my life at all. I can't hate a "god" that does not exist. As for which Christian doctrine, I think at this most basic level it doesn't particularly matter. If the doctrine they peddle states that there exists an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnibenevolent Creator or entity then it's false simple as. I appreciate that there is a branch of believers that call themselves Open Theists who outright state that God is not in fact Omniscient and who believe that the wider Church has bastardised the Bible interpretation and misunderstood it but I doubt you're referring to these people.

Taking responsibility for your own life is in fact a very hard step for many people. Most people, esp Christians are psychologically manipulated to live their lives away from personal responsibility and to instead place their dependency on external sources. Hence you have people praying and asking for healing, instead of getting off their backsides, researching how Nature offers cures for just about anything and being responsible for your own health. Equally people just place total dependence on the global health services who now exist for profit not for the benefit of human health.

Do you take responsibility for your own food? Do you realise that the food chain is being destroyed and taken over by globalist powers who are investing in insect produce and synthetic meats and other products? That's what you'll be eating very soon unless you take responsibility for your life and your own food. You need to grow your own fruit and vegetables. You need a way to purify your own water sources for when the domestic water supply gets compromised. You need a way to cook and survive for when the electricity supplies are switched off.
Are you ready for this? Are you prepared?

That's what taking responsibility for you own live entails.
 

Mercury

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So you stated you did some homework and found what?

The knowledge of what the Tree Of Life is.

I agree with you that Christian religion in many cases does more damage than good,

It has much to answer for. It is in demise though.


but then I believe that the Christian faith through Jesus is the most precious thing in life.

Yes it's a tempting prospect isn't it. Just believe X, Y , Z and magically you're saved and will go to some future utopia. it's a comfort blanket which you've believed because there are holes in your life.

The reality is that you can't die. You can only change form as you have already done countless times before being a human.

So you've bought into the psychological scaremongering of the doctrine.

You've created a need pout of nothing and you've been literally frightened into believing a lie.

That's why I said earlier that it takes great humility to ever escape from that trap. It's hard, even impossible for some to contemplate that what they have now chosen to believe is a nonsense and a deception.

Does it matter? Christians quite often come up with the statement:

"Well if I'm wrong and there is no God or Heaven then what have I lost? I've lived a good wholesome life anyway"



Unfortunately this couldn't be more wrong.

What you've done by believing the lies, is stopped thinking, stopped searching, become lazy and placed yourself on a conveyor belt to early death.

You've basically absolved yourself of all studying and searching for real truth having been spoon-fed the oh so tasty religious doctrineand satisfied yourself that there's nothing left to do. You just need to keep believing and magically everything will come good after you die.

This is in fact perilous.

It is NOT without reason that the Bible speaks of people living 900+ years. THAT IS a normal humna life span, if not even longer.

Why then are you satisfied to live just 70-90 yrs !! Who told you that such a tiny life span was normal? Why did you believe and accept it?!!

It's a lie

However, in order to live that normal life span of 900+ years you need access to the White and Red stones of alchemy. The stones that Jesus had and gave to his disciples. (Note that they are not actual stones like rocks, they are substances, powders, oils etc).

Jesus gave you the starkest warning you could hope for here:

John 6:53
"Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink."


Now you're an intelligent guy. So I know that you don't think Jesus was being literal here. Jesus was not a cannibal. He's not suggesting we need to start nibbling his arms and legs to eat his flesh !! But neither is he talking about some airf fairy figurative mumbo jumbo, nor is he talking about eating paper or drinking wine.

He's is as always, using allegorical terms and he is referring to the White Stone and the Red Stone of alchemy. He is saying that unless you eat the White Stone and drink the Red Stone, then ther eis literally no life in you and I'm afraid you're going to die. That's his stark warning.

This isn't some kind of farcical goodbye plea asking his disciples to remember him by lighting a candle on his birthday after he's gone. This is a real life warning telling people that the true source of life, the real Tree Of Life, is the White and Red Stone of alchemy. The Stones that provide the life energy your body need to thrive and flourish and live 900+ years. Or even to live indefinitely. As matter of point though, if you look into alchemy you will find that it suggests that the more Stone you ingest the more this transforms your body and mind to the point where you will eventually become a new kind of being. Your faculties will be opened so much that you'll use all your brain's capacity, and all your innate abilities will be realised. You will ultimately transform into a "light being" and will "ascend" as the trappings of physical human existance here on Earth will seem pointless and boring and limiting. You'll become true spirit/soul and willingly shake off your limiiting physical body and go travelling around the galaxy or through different planes of existence.

But that's all far down the line. Right now, the stark warning from Jesus is that we're going to die very very early if we don't "eat the flesh" and "drink the blood" which refers to the products of alchemy. Those Stones will, on the one hand, give you health and longevity whilst at the same time providing the ability to transmute base metals into gold and silver (and thus gain much wealth) although the latter is these days shunned as a benefit since health and long life is far far superiour to the acquisition of monetary wealth.

Here's the greatest Bible passage that is talking about the alchemy stones (though it allegorically talks about "wisdom" to conceal the secret):

Proverbs 3:13-20:

Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her. Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour. Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her. The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens. By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew.

Do you see it? Length of days, i.e. longevity, long life is one benefit and "riches and honour" i.e. wealth is another benefit.

Note how the passage finishes with the same allegorical references to the alchemy processes that we also see in Genesis and elsewhere. The "heavens", "Earth", "Rain", "dew" etc etc. This is to absolutely underline the fact that we are not talking about "wisdom" per say but about the White and Red Stones.

Song of Solomon 5:10-16:
My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand. His head is as the most fine gold,

White and Red again.


Deuteronomy 32:2
"My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb,
and as the showers upon the grass:



Let me tell you another truth. This same message of the Stone and the alchemical process that uses glass flasks and sees a microcosm weather like system taking place within it, mist rising, condensing as dew, falling back down as rain etc, is found in every major religious work, hidden there equally in plain sight and using the same allegorical terminolgy. It's in the Quran, the Bhagavad Gita, in Taoism and so on.

One message, spread out to all civilisations and cultures of humanity.

Stand back. Be humble. Accept the truth of what Jesus was saying not the lies that religion has fed you.
 

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What a strange load of stuff to spout! I don't hate my life at all. I can't hate a "god" that does not exist. As for which Christian doctrine, I think at this most basic level it doesn't particularly matter. If the doctrine they peddle states that there exists an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnibenevolent Creator or entity then it's false simple as. I appreciate that there is a branch of believers that call themselves Open Theists who outright state that God is not in fact Omniscient and who believe that the wider Church has bastardised the Bible interpretation and misunderstood it but I doubt you're referring to these people.

Taking responsibility for your own life is in fact a very hard step for many people. Most people, esp Christians are psychologically manipulated to live their lives away from personal responsibility and to instead place their dependency on external sources. Hence you have people praying and asking for healing, instead of getting off their backsides, researching how Nature offers cures for just about anything and being responsible for your own health. Equally people just place total dependence on the global health services who now exist for profit not for the benefit of human health.

Do you take responsibility for your own food? Do you realise that the food chain is being destroyed and taken over by globalist powers who are investing in insect produce and synthetic meats and other products? That's what you'll be eating very soon unless you take responsibility for your life and your own food. You need to grow your own fruit and vegetables. You need a way to purify your own water sources for when the domestic water supply gets compromised. You need a way to cook and survive for when the electricity supplies are switched off.
Are you ready for this? Are you prepared?

That's what taking responsibility for you own live entails.

So how come you chose "seeker" for your religious affinity when you signed up?
 

Frankj

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As I said, we pray in hopes that our prayers are in accordance with God's will.
The way I understand God's will is that God will is an outcome and man chooses how to fulfill it.

This is free will, but free will withing the framework of God's will. God's will is always done and all that man does is simply the direction we take in achieving it.

An example of this is that God willed the nation of Israel to be reborn in the land it was given and man used WWII and the Holocaust to carry it out. God didn't will WWII and all the evil it encompassed, Man did. God willed the end of the Diaspora and the Jews returning to their land so the nation of Israel is reborn, and that is what happened.

This is why when I pray I always pray that God's perfect will be done and not simply that his will be done since that is going to happen anyway no matter what man desires or how he tries to distort it. As Jesus taught "on earth as in heaven"

This is my view, others may think differently about it.
 

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So how come you chose "seeker" for your religious affinity when you signed up?

Well the choices were kinda restrictive I thought and selecting "Seeker" seemed better than "Other". It's better because I am and have been a seeker for real truth beyond the clap trap that mainstream religion peddles. Does "seeker" represent something specific here?
 

Mercury

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The way I understand God's will is that God will is an outcome and man chooses how to fulfill it.

If man chooses then how can God be in control of everything? That doesn't stack up with Christian doctrine does it?!

This is free will, but free will withing the framework of God's will.

Ahh so not actually free will at all then. It's a bit of lee-way and wriggle room withing someone else's will and imposed rules, i.e. a dictator.

It's pretty poor to refer to such as "free will" I think. Let's not delude ourselves.


God's will is always done and all that man does is simply the direction we take in achieving it.

Now that's the opposite of your first opening sentence. In the first sentence you present man as the one who can choose actions, who is in control of outcomes and that whatever they do is the will of God.

Now here you're saying the opposite, that God's Will comes first and man just gets carried along with it so no control by man, no free will.

An example of this is that God willed the nation of Israel to be reborn in the land it was given and man used WWII and the Holocaust to carry it out. God didn't will WWII and all the evil it encompassed, Man did.
Now you've contradicted yourself. Above you said "God's will is always done" and now you say "God didn't will WWII and so things happened outside his will". You seem confused but I totally understand that confusion, the whole God and Christian doctrine thing is very confusing and doesn't really hold together logically.

You're also being apologetic for God here. You're making an excuse for why God either caused or wilfully permitted WWII to go ahead with all the horrors and suffering that it would bring. God is Omnipotent isn't he? And Omniscient and supposedly all-loving, Omni-benevolent.

Do you think it was all-loving to allow WWII to happen?

Was it loving to allow the atom bomb to be used on Hiroshima?


God willed the end of the Diaspora and the Jews returning to their land so the nation of Israel is reborn, and that is what happened.

Pretty awful approach then to get what he wanted. He also wanted the Egyptians to bend their knee and after sending plague after plague he then wilfully murdered every Egyptian child. A strange way to get what you want and very much NOT all-loving. What ever had the little children done to God?!!


This is why when I pray I always pray that God's perfect will be done and not simply that his will be done since that is going to happen anyway no matter what man desires or how he tries to distort it.

So you're saying God isn't actually perfect. He suffers some kind of "ordinary will" that is not perfect will? Not sure that stacks up with Christian doctrine either.

As Jesus taught "on earth as in heaven"

This is my view, others may think differently about it.

It's an interesting and slightly radical view Frank. Not any kind of mainstream Christian view. Do you belong to any given denomination or to a sect/cult or consider yourself an Open Theist?
 

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So if I eat the right kind of rocks I'll be A-ok? FOREVER?
 

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Sorry, couldn't resist.
 

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So if I eat the right kind of rocks I'll be A-ok? FOREVER?

Yeah I already explained that the "Stones" are not actual stones or rocks. It's a very old joke I'm afraid but understandable. People have trouble coming to terms with what seems to them to be a very radical set of new information. It's hard to process I know.

Unfortunately you can't really learn about this whilst your head is already full of religious doctrine. There's no room for new ideas and thoughts. The Chinese philosophers have a saying for this:

"Empty your cup"

You can not pour new drink into a cup that is already full.

We must first purge our mind of the nonsense we've been fed and most honestly and sincerely begin a new search for truth.
Then your eyes will be opened. You will have the eyes to see and ears to hear that Jesus spoke of.
 

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Well the choices were kinda restrictive I thought and selecting "Seeker" seemed better than "Other". It's better because I am and have been a seeker for real truth beyond the clap trap that mainstream religion peddles. Does "seeker" represent something specific here?

Yes, seeker means that you're open to Christianity. There is an Atheist choice in there, does that fit you?
 

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Yes, seeker means that you're open to Christianity. There is an Atheist choice in there, does that fit you?
See posts 43 and 21
 

Uncle_Sol

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Well the choices were kinda restrictive I thought and selecting "Seeker" seemed better than "Other". It's better because I am and have been a seeker for real truth beyond the clap trap that mainstream religion peddles. Does "seeker" represent something specific here?
This is why we have to use critique and inference, including on how to receive Holy Spirit meanings. Farbeit from me to specify who show how do that and who don't.

Holy Scriptures not only point us to Holy Spirit but to non stop prayer. Farbeit from me to specify who teaches us that and who doesn't.

God has antecedent will and consequent will. I'm not good at explaining and I would hope others would be a little more so. This is why when I respond, I'm leaving crumbs like clues or cues for others, but that's just me. I thought most threads are supposed to be multi-cornered conversations but I may have misunderstood.

"Mainstream" comprises, as far as non-insiders are concerned, organisations and media personalities.

You may get more response if you decouple your concept of individuals at the forum, from your idea of those organisations / media personalities; I for one was never beholden to those but that was just me.

I took your tone as saying, "does anyone think . . ."

In my own case as ordinary (new) member I chose a descriptor that is merely loose and approximate, but that was only me anyway. In my opinion your speed or pace is yours but perhaps I'm overstepping by expressing that.
 

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What, specifically then, are these products of alchemy that bring this ascendant life, Mercury?
 

Mercury

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Yes, seeker means that you're open to Christianity. There is an Atheist choice in there, does that fit you?

OK. There were no definitions of the choices during sign up so difficult to know what the forum meant by Seeker. I think in all honesty it's unfair to claim the term "Seeker" as anything Christianity based. It's a good universal term for anyone who is generally seeking answers but it's your forum so hey ho. I've changed my profile to "Humanist" which comes next closest for me.
 
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