Crazy Christian Theology

Lanman87

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Never have I had to provide investigation details

You haven't provided any details. Just unsubstantiated claims. Are there any respected leaders who will confirm your claims? After all, for something to be proven true you need eyewitnesses of the truth who can corroborate what you claim is true. Who is willing to do that for you?
 

JustTheFacts

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Well thus far I've only ran across three respected religious leaders who were willing to step outside their theology comfort zone to take a look at my data and conclusions. One, a minister and PhD in Chemistry told me my results were very interesting and he was using some of my results in his sermons. Another, a PhD in Theology stated, "It's very interesting what you are finding, and I can't debate any of your results--but I'll always remain a Catholic." The third, a Baptist minister of a large church has been busy but agreed to review the data so I send him updates everyday. Thus far he has been silent--which is a common reaction I received from a few other ministers. Religious leaders do not want anyone rocking their theology boat. That's a sad fact.

Every day as I start to document more results, I pray to God for guidance, direction and help to get the message exactly how he wants it. My only goal is to please God, but if you think it's important to have someone else review my work, then have them look it over. I welcome reviews and comments. I'm not hiding anything and I'm confident of the results. You can also complete the challenge I gave you to solve the 'seventy sevens' using the clue I provided. That little bit of hidden data along with the rejection of commonly accepted theology (CAT), is all you need. Prove it to yourself! You have everything you need!
 

Lanman87

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One, a minister and PhD in Chemistry told me my results were very interesting and he was using some of my results in his sermons.

Did this minister stop using Luke, Acts, the Pauline Letters, Hebrews and Peters writings as part of his teaching and in his sermons?

Another, a PhD in Theology stated, "It's very interesting what you are finding, and I can't debate any of your results--but I'll always remain a Catholic."

So he dismissed you completely.

The third, a Baptist minister of a large church has been busy but agreed to review the data so I send him updates everyday. Thus far he has been silent--which is a common reaction I received from a few other ministers.

So he has dismissed you completely and is ignoring you. Despite your repeated attempts to engage him.

My guess is the first minister and the Catholic were being kind to you and the third is just avoiding a confrontation.

In other words, your findings don't meet the criteria you claim must be held for something to be considered a work of God and truth.

Of course, even if you did find people to agree with you that doesn't mean it is true. There are countless examples in the Old Testament of a group of false prophets who all agreed with each other yet were in error. Throughout history we have countless accounts of men who were gifted at persuasion and had large followings but were cult leaders and false teachers. Many of whom claimed to have visions from God or direct instructions from God.
 

JustTheFacts

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Did this minister stop using Luke, Acts, the Pauline Letters, Hebrews and Peters writings as part of his teaching and in his sermons?



So he dismissed you completely.



So he has dismissed you completely and is ignoring you. Despite your repeated attempts to engage him.

My guess is the first minister and the Catholic were being kind to you and the third is just avoiding a confrontation.

In other words, your findings don't meet the criteria you claim must be held for something to be considered a work of God and truth.

Of course, even if you did find people to agree with you that doesn't mean it is true. There are countless examples in the Old Testament of a group of false prophets who all agreed with each other yet were in error. Throughout history we have countless accounts of men who were gifted at persuasion and had large followings but were cult leaders and false teachers. Many of whom claimed to have visions from God or direct instructions from God.

Sorry to disappoint you but your response is pointless as I'm not looking for a following, acceptance, approval, or affirmation from anyone. I was asked about others reviewing my analysis and conclusions and I answered that question honestly--which BTW I will always do. I do not claim to speak the word of God and never will because I understand God's criteria for recognizing inspired men that can speak for God, and I don't meet it. That's the difference between us--I understand God's criteria and can determine from it who God appointed to speak for him. You on the other hand reject and replace God's criteria with opinions of what people think.
 

Lanman87

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Sorry to disappoint you but your response is pointless as I'm not looking for a following, acceptance, approval, or affirmation from anyone. I was asked about others reviewing my analysis and conclusions and I answered that question honestly--which BTW I will always do. I do not claim to speak the word of God and never will because I understand God's criteria for recognizing inspired men that can speak for God, and I don't meet it. That's the difference between us--I understand God's criteria and can determine from it who God appointed to speak for him. You on the other hand reject and replace God's criteria with opinions of what people think.

What you are doing is saying that you are smarter than everyone else. Not just everyone who participates on this forum, but everyone in all of Christian history. All the Theologians, Historians, Bible Scholars, Linguist, Pastors, Priest, Philosophers, and laity are all misinformed and don't really understand the Bible, what should be in the Bible, and how the Bible came to be the Bible. But somehow, you do.

Don't you see how ridiculous you claims are?
 

JustTheFacts

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What you are doing is saying that you are smarter than everyone else. Not just everyone who participates on this forum, but everyone in all of Christian history. All the Theologians, Historians, Bible Scholars, Linguist, Pastors, Priest, Philosophers, and laity are all misinformed and don't really understand the Bible, what should be in the Bible, and how the Bible came to be the Bible. But somehow, you do.

Don't you see how ridiculous you claims are?
I've made no such claims --those are your perceptions. I am just doing what I've done all my professional life--evaluating data and providing conclusions. If you are so convinced that I am wrong, then tell me how the antichrist, rapture, and tribulation make sense? Prove to me how arrogant and wrong my conclusion is that the seven sevens of Daniel is a reference to Jesus and the seven is a reference to his seven year mission described in detail in Revelation. Or better yet, do an analysis and prove to me that Matthew wrote the Gospel of Matthew rather than Nicodemus. Or better yet, do an analysis on Peter walking on the water, the tax collector story, and Jesus assigning Peter to lead the Church and prove to me that they weren't add-ons by others, as I have found. I'd love to have someone prove my conclusions wrong because I missed some important data. I'm here to get educated feedback, not baseless criticism and accusations. So please stop telling me how wrong I am because everyone else has a different conclusion. I've done my homework and stand behind my conclusions. Please do your homework and come up with a facts-based conclusion on something...anything.
 

Lanman87

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I've made no such claims --those are your perceptions. I am just doing what I've done all my professional life--evaluating data and providing conclusions. If you are so convinced that I am wrong, then tell me how the antichrist, rapture, and tribulation make sense? Prove to me how arrogant and wrong my conclusion is that the seven sevens of Daniel is a reference to Jesus and the seven is a reference to his seven year mission described in detail in Revelation. Or better yet, do an analysis and prove to me that Matthew wrote the Gospel of Matthew rather than Nicodemus. Or better yet, do an analysis on Peter walking on the water, the tax collector story, and Jesus assigning Peter to lead the Church and prove to me that they weren't add-ons by others, as I have found. I'd love to have someone prove my conclusions wrong because I missed some important data. I'm here to get educated feedback, not baseless criticism and accusations. So please stop telling me how wrong I am because everyone else has a different conclusion. I've done my homework and stand behind my conclusions. Please do your homework and come up with a facts-based conclusion on something...anything.

You are the one making these claims that go against historic Christianity and accepted Christian belief. It is not up to me, or anyone to proves those things are true. It is up to the one making the claim to prove that their claim is true.
 

JustTheFacts

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You are the one making these claims that go against historic Christianity and accepted Christian belief. It is not up to me, or anyone to proves those things are true. It is up to the one making the claim to prove that their claim is true.
But you are certain that I am wrong so you must have HIDDEN special knowledge to be able to do that without any evidence.
 

Lanman87

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But you are certain that I am wrong so you must have HIDDEN special knowledge to be able to do that without any evidence.

You haven't given any evidence to accept or refute. Just baseless claims.
 

JustTheFacts

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You haven't given any evidence to accept or refute. Just baseless claims.
I’ve given you enough data to start checking my conclusions. What I won’t do is spell out all the details because you will never get past, “but everybody else believes…”
 

BruceLeiter

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I get it, but who wrote Hebrews and who gave that person authority to speak for God? Did the author of Hebrews meet Deuteronomy requirements for being a prophet who spoke for God? We don't know so we cannot claim that Hebrews is the word of God. However, setting that aside, let's consider what is written. From Hebrews 4 in the WEB:

12 For the word of God is living and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and is able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 There is no creature that is hidden from his sight, but all things are naked and laid open before the eyes of him to whom we must give an account.

If anything, I read this as referring to the word of God that is in existence, not stating that others can speak it. The word of God is living and acrtive in my life, in your life, and in the life of everyone who honestly attempts to follow the word of God. The Holy Spirit will help guide us and provide wisdom if we seek it and we have the word of God as a foundation.

Isaiah is proven to have spoken for God, so what does Isaiah say about this subject? You have referenced 55:11, so taking a look at that, from the WEB:

10 For as the rain comes down and the snow from the sky,
and doesn’t return there, but waters the earth,
and makes it grow and bud,
and gives seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
11 so is my word that goes out of my mouth:
it will not return to me void,
but it will accomplish that which I please,
and it will prosper in the thing I sent it to do.

To me that claims that the word of God is to be active in our lives so that it helps us spiritually grow. It doesn't give anyone authority to speak for God.
Your last statement confused me. I thought immediately about what Paul commanded to Timothy:
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
2Ti 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
2Ti 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.

This passage along with the passages in Ephesians 4 and 1 Corinthians 12 gives selected people the ability to preach the Word for God. I was one of those people for 27 years, and God did use me to preach spiritual renewal in complacent churches.

The comfort for preachers of the Word is Ezekiel 33, where Prophet Ezekiel is told that if he would share God's warnings and comfort faithfully, he would be free of responsibility for the result or lack thereof in people's lives.
 

JustTheFacts

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Your last statement confused me. I thought immediately about what Paul commanded to Timothy:
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
2Ti 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
2Ti 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.

This passage along with the passages in Ephesians 4 and 1 Corinthians 12 gives selected people the ability to preach the Word for God. I was one of those people for 27 years, and God did use me to preach spiritual renewal in complacent churches.

The comfort for preachers of the Word is Ezekiel 33, where Prophet Ezekiel is told that if he would share God's warnings and comfort faithfully, he would be free of responsibility for the result or lack thereof in people's lives.
But like i said, who gave Paul the ability and authority to tell the world what constitutes the word of God? You didn’t answer that. I could debate that Paul was referring to OT prophet scripture, but it doesnt matter unless Paul can designate himself as speaking for God, and he can’t.
 

BruceLeiter

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But like i said, who gave Paul the ability and authority to tell the world what constitutes the word of God? You didn’t answer that. I could debate that Paul was referring to OT prophet scripture, but it doesnt matter unless Paul can designate himself as speaking for God, and he can’t.
Of course, Paul was describing the whole Old Testament, which the Jewish scholars had assembled by that time. Jesus designated Paul as one of the Apostles on the road to Damascus, but Peter said that Paul was writing Scriptures, just as Peter's letters are Scriptures:
2Pe 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.
2Pe 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
2Pe 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
 

JustTheFacts

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Of course, Paul was describing the whole Old Testament, which the Jewish scholars had assembled by that time.
That is my thinking, but it cannot be validated from that information.
Jesus designated Paul as one of the Apostles on the road to Damascus, but Peter said that Paul was writing Scriptures, just as Peter's letters are Scriptures:
There is no apostles. Jesus had his disciples, then the term apostles came into play after Jesus was crucified and resurrected. If you are referring to 2 Peter, the language in the letter does not indicate that Peter wrote it. Besides, Peter has no authority to say who can and who can't provide the word of God--that is specified in Deuteronomy.
 

BruceLeiter

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That is my thinking, but it cannot be validated from that information.

There is no apostles. Jesus had his disciples, then the term apostles came into play after Jesus was crucified and resurrected. If you are referring to 2 Peter, the language in the letter does not indicate that Peter wrote it. Besides, Peter has no authority to say who can and who can't provide the word of God--that is specified in Deuteronomy.
Where did you get your ideas, JustTheFacts? The content of 2 Peter agrees with the rest of the Bible. That's the reason it was included. It is part of God's Word and was inspired by him.

Yes, Jesus had his disciples (disciplined followers), and they did become his apostles (sent out proclaimers, including Paul).

What specific verses in Deuteronomy are you referring to?
 

JustTheFacts

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Where did you get your ideas, JustTheFacts? The content of 2 Peter agrees with the rest of the Bible. That's the reason it was included. It is part of God's Word and was inspired by him.

Yes, Jesus had his disciples (disciplined followers), and they did become his apostles (sent out proclaimers, including Paul).

What specific verses in Deuteronomy are you referring to?
God was very specific on what is the proven word of God. Deuteronomy 17:6 and 19:15 were referred to by the Pharisees questioning Jesus to prove he was the Messiah and Jesus stated he met it. Deuteronomy 18:21-22 specified the requirements for prophets to be from God. Prophets are from God if the predict the one thing--the coming of Jesus. If a prophet predicted the coming of the Messiah he was proven to be sent by God because the Messiah did come--Jesus.

I have found nothing in the words of the Jesus which changed those requirements. There are some questionable statements recorded in the letters included in the New Testament that attempt to change requirements, but they are not the word of God, so they are not to be even considered. Many Christians claim that the Bible it the infallible word of God, but in doing so they are ignoring Deuteronomy.
 

BruceLeiter

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God was very specific on what is the proven word of God. Deuteronomy 17:6 and 19:15 were referred to by the Pharisees questioning Jesus to prove he was the Messiah and Jesus stated he met it. Deuteronomy 18:21-22 specified the requirements for prophets to be from God. Prophets are from God if the predict the one thing--the coming of Jesus. If a prophet predicted the coming of the Messiah he was proven to be sent by God because the Messiah did come--Jesus.

I have found nothing in the words of the Jesus which changed those requirements. There are some questionable statements recorded in the letters included in the New Testament that attempt to change requirements, but they are not the word of God, so they are not to be even considered. Many Christians claim that the Bible it the infallible word of God, but in doing so they are ignoring Deuteronomy.
In your first sentence, you did not tell us the passage in which the Pharisees confronted Jesus with the two verses in Deuteronomy to give us Jesus' exact response, which we needed to evaluate your interpretation. Quote exactly what he said, please. By the way, the first reference is about Israelite idolatry, while the second is about any crime. Jesus rightly says that his and his Father's witness were enough, I believe.

Are the requirements of Deuteronomy 18:21-22 the only God-given ones for a prophet's confirmation in the whole Old Testament? I doubt it.
It seems to me that you try to prove your point by saying that you "have found nothing in the words of [the] Jesus." You realize, of course, that arguing from Scripture's silence proves nothing, because John said,
Joh 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

The Apostles only chose certain events and teachings to demonstrate their purposes for their audiences, that is, to present different aspects of Jesus' life and teachings for them and us.
 

JustTheFacts

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In your first sentence, you did not tell us the passage in which the Pharisees confronted Jesus with the two verses in Deuteronomy to give us Jesus' exact response, which we needed to evaluate your interpretation.
Not sure what you want. The Pharisees knew the law and confronted Jesus to provide the two witnesses to validate himself as the Messiah Easy to find.
Quote exactly what he said, please. By the way, the first reference is about Israelite idolatry, while the second is about any crime. Jesus rightly says that his and his Father's witness were enough, I believe.
Deuteronomy 17:6 may have been precipitated by idol worship, but it doesn't matter because it addresses the penalty of death. Jesus claimed that his Father as a witness AND himself through his miracles was enough. John 5:31-37
Are the requirements of Deuteronomy 18:21-22 the only God-given ones for a prophet's confirmation in the whole Old Testament? I doubt it.
Please point out other requirements and I'll be glad to review.
It seems to me that you try to prove your point by saying that you "have found nothing in the words of [the] Jesus." You realize, of course, that arguing from Scripture's silence proves nothing, because John said,
Joh 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
God ensured that the necessary testimony of eyewitnesses was presented so that all nations and people will believe.
The Apostles only chose certain events and teachings to demonstrate their purposes for their audiences, that is, to present different aspects of Jesus' life and teachings for them and us.
How do you know what "apostles" did? Not only that, why is there even a reference to apostles? They are not eyewitnesses and may provide interesting information, but it is not testimony of Jesus.
 

JustTheFacts

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Are the requirements of Deuteronomy 18:21-22 the only God-given ones for a prophet's confirmation in the whole Old Testament? I doubt it.
It seems to me that you try to prove your point by saying that you "have found nothing in the words of [the] Jesus." You realize, of course, that arguing from Scripture's silence proves nothing, because John said,
I missed this in my previous response. Actually the fact that something hasnt been documented can be very important. For example, what the authors included, and what they didn’t write about proves their identity. Nicodemus is proven as the Author of Matthew from what he wrote about and what he copied and didn’t write about. The same goes for the author of Mark. When Mary Magdalene anointed Jesus, Mark‘s author does not mention Mary, Martha, and Lazarus as being present. John does because he was with Jesus during Lazarus’ resurrection event, so he knew them all. Marks author was a disciple who was with Jesus, but not close to him. He didn’t witness Lazarus’ resurrection and was mixed in with the crowd during Jesus’ anointing while John was next to Jesus and knew the family.
 

BruceLeiter

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I missed this in my previous response. Actually the fact that something hasnt been documented can be very important. For example, what the authors included, and what they didn’t write about proves their identity. Nicodemus is proven as the Author of Matthew from what he wrote about and what he copied and didn’t write about. The same goes for the author of Mark. When Mary Magdalene anointed Jesus, Mark‘s author does not mention Mary, Martha, and Lazarus as being present. John does because he was with Jesus during Lazarus’ resurrection event, so he knew them all. Marks author was a disciple who was with Jesus, but not close to him. He didn’t witness Lazarus’ resurrection and was mixed in with the crowd during Jesus’ anointing while John was next to Jesus and knew the family.
Arguing from silence in any literature is a bogus argument. You speak as if Nicodemus' authorship of Matthew is a fact. No, it's just your unproven theory that will never be proven. The four authors of the gospels included and excluded details and events with the purpose of meeting their audiences' needs, not for the purpose you imagine. That's why arguing from a gospel's silence is so bogus. It proves nothing. Please take it from this former English teacher (8 years) and pastor (27 years) with master's degrees in both.
 
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