Florida criminalizes homelessness

[Jazzy]

The Florida Senate this week passed a bill banning the homeless from sleeping or setting up camp in public spaces.

Florida bill to curb homeless public sleeping headed to Gov. DeSantis' desk

A controversial proposal designed to prevent homeless people from sleeping in public places while requiring local governments to address the issue is headed to Gov. Ron DeSantis.

www.cbsnews.com

IMO: The problem is that they just move someplace else. Just making it illegal just fixes your neighborhood, well, maybe. I have no problem giving aide to displaced people, but we need to stop acting like they're all victims and call this what it is, a drug problem. These people need to be forced to go to rehab, stay off drugs or go to jail. From what I've seen they'd prefer jail over rehab.

What's your opinion?

 

[tango]

Not all homeless people are addicts.

One problem with homelessness is that it is so much more complex than a convenient single issue that can be forcibly addressed.

If someone is an addict perhaps they can be required to attend rehab, but that raises the question of whether people have the right to refuse medical treatment. If they are denied the right to refuse rehab, where does denying individual rights stop? Will we see people with other issues forcibly treated against their will?

If someone is living on the street should they be forced to live in a shelter? Some would say yes, but for some shelters are unsafe or feel unsafe. Many shelters don't allow animals, so requiring someone to live in a shelter would require them to give up a pet they have had since before they became homeless and, with animal shelters running at capacity, potentially means killing their pet for no reason other than to force them into a shelter they don't want to live in.

Certainly a part of the problem is abuse of drugs and alcohol. Another part of the problem is simply a shortage of affordable housing, which is largely caused by monetary policy. Getting back to a place where housing doesn't soak up huge chunks of someone's income is unlikely to happen as it would cause so much economic pain to so many people.

 

[Josiah]

The Florida Senate this week passed a bill banning the homeless from sleeping or setting up camp in public spaces.

So, Florida's Senate did not criminalize homelessness. It passed a law making it a crime to camp in public spaces.




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[Forgiven1]

So, Florida's Senate did not criminalize homelessness. It passed a law making it a crime to camp in public spaces.




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This I can go along with. Worked in Albuquerque for almost 3 months and the homeless were everywhere. Here in my city, we have homeless, but I have no idea where they sleep. I do hear of a couple of encampments, but you don't see tents and homemade shelters all over the place like I did in Albuquerque.

 

[tango]

So, Florida's Senate did not criminalize homelessness. It passed a law making it a crime to camp in public spaces.




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If you don't have anywhere to go to sleep for the night in the conventional sense (home, friend's couch, whatever) you don't have a lot of option but to sleep in a public space.

Theoretically speaking it makes sleeping in public a crime rather than simply being homeless but practically speaking the effect is more or less the same. Technically the person who couch-surfs, spending a few nights on one friend's couch and then a few nights on another friend's couch, is homeless but not sleeping in public. The person who has no permanent home and doesn't have friends with spare couches has to sleep sooner or later and if they are prohibited from sleeping in a public space while also being prohibited from sleeping in a private space since they don't have permission from the owner, the difference between that and making homelessness a crime is little more than semantic gymnastics.

One can sleep without "setting up camp" although in inclement weather it's hardly surprising people make at least some attempts to stay warm and dry. It's hard to see how people can do that without doing something that would qualify as "camping".


ETA: It's easy to see why people don't want homeless camps in the middle of town. I don't want to trip over homeless people in the street while I'm going about my daily business. My concern isn't that they should be allowed to set up wherever they feel like sleeping but that making it illegal to sleep here simply means they will go and sleep over there. It moves the problem without addressing it.

 

[Albion]

If you don't have anywhere to go to sleep for the night in the conventional sense (home, friend's couch, whatever) you don't have a lot of option but to sleep in a public space.

It's hard to believe that the public sidewalk is the only option for these people. As was already noted, there are many homeless encampments in other cities, and they are in areas of town, including the downtown, where the public hardly notices their presence.

But of course those homeless people who want to panhandle passers-by wouldn't choose to be somewhere other than on the sidewalk or in the lobby of a terminal, etc., and that's whether or not it's bedtime!

 

[tango]

It's hard to believe that the public sidewalk is the only option for these people. As was already noted, there are many homeless encampments in other cities, and they are in areas of town, including the downtown, where the public hardly notices their presence.

But of course those homeless people who want to panhandle passers-by wouldn't choose to be somewhere other than on the sidewalk or in the lobby of a terminal, etc., and that's whether or not it's bedtime!

Sure, there are many times where you see a homeless person who apparently decided that the least sheltered area was an ideal spot to take up residence. Presumably their decision was related to the volume of passing traffic that might throw them some change. I remember as a child wondering why a homeless person would choose a totally unsheltered spot on a bridge stairwell - no protection from the sun or the rain or the wind. That was before I understood the concept of begging for change.

If I needed to sleep somewhere in public I'd be inclined to find somewhere I wouldn't be disturbed. Somewhere people wouldn't see me, trip over me, possibly harm me. Of course that would also mean places people wouldn't give me money. But without a home to go to it would still have to be somewhere public. The only question is whether "public" means somewhere very visible in town or somewhere less visible off the beaten track. Either option is still public, and so either option still risks falling foul of a law against sleeping in public.

Yes, there are shelters. They aren't always desirable options, if they are even an option based on available space.

 

[Albion]

If I needed to sleep somewhere in public I'd be inclined to find somewhere I wouldn't be disturbed. Somewhere people wouldn't see me, trip over me, possibly harm me. Of course that would also mean places people wouldn't give me money. But without a home to go to it would still have to be somewhere public. The only question is whether "public" means somewhere very visible in town or somewhere less visible off the beaten track. Either option is still public, and so either option still risks falling foul of a law against sleeping in public.

Yes, there are shelters. They aren't always desirable options, if they are even an option based on available space.

All right, but I was thinking of the situation with sidewalks and similar high-visibility locations that have become a well-publicized problem--the kind of thing that "Forgiven 1" witnessed in Albuquerque.

 

[tango]

All right, but I was thinking of the situation with sidewalks and similar high-visibility locations that have become a well-publicized problem--the kind of thing that "Forgiven 1" witnessed in Albuquerque.

There are certainly homeless people who are clearly seeking maximum visibility rather than seclusion. The trouble is that banning them from sleeping in public places outlaws the discreet locations as well as the more overt locations.

Whatever particular requirements individual homeless people may have their plight isn't going to be helped if they are woken up and moved along while they are trying to sleep, even if they have gone out of their way to find somewhere discreet to sleep. I believe mental health issues are more common among homeless people and sleep deprivation isn't going to do anything to help them.

It's a difficult situation to resolve - handing out free housing with no conditions doesn't help in the long term, requiring medical treatment creates issues relating to consent, and simply letting people set up semi-permanent camps wherever they want makes cities feel unsafe and causes problems for the people who live and work there, not to mention the businesses that need customers in order to pay rent, taxes etc. Any form of group accommodation runs into the predictable clutch of problems around privacy, gender segregation and gender identity, pets, behavioral standards and the like.

 

[The Jason]

I feel like churches need to be more personal in helping the homeless. For instance, why, assuming the homeless person isn't violent, can't the/she be invited into a church member's home, even if it's the basement? Think about it.

 

[tango]

I feel like churches need to be more personal in helping the homeless. For instance, why, assuming the homeless person isn't violent, can't the/she be invited into a church member's home, even if it's the basement? Think about it.

In theory they could but it runs into all sorts of other questions. For example my basement isn't sensibly habitable - it's an unfinished space with an uneven floor, a ceiling that's a bit low in places, no heating etc.

It's hard to know if someone will be violent especially where mental health issues are involved. It's remarkable how fast someone can change when they are triggered, and there's no way of knowing what might trigger them. My first responsibility is to my own family so I'm going to be very wary of introducing strangers to the household who may harm the family. I also need to be aware of the potential of false accusations of inappropriate behavior towards a new female lodger, unless my wife and I are going to become more or less prisoners in our own home where she can't go out without me.

And for good measure there are legal issues relating to potentially needing to get rid of someone if they do cause trouble. One might hope that a homeless person given a place to stay would be grateful and not take advantage but what do you do if you come home from work one day to find half a dozen new people set up in your basement? What conditions, if any, would you place on giving someone shelter? What do you do if the police raid your property because the homeless person is implicated in drug dealing? Do you require them to find employment, and if so how long do you give them (which may be further complicated due to health issues and general employability)? Or do you let them stay for free without limit, arguably enabling them in not doing anything to provide for themselves?

In principle I would agree with you but in practise the matter of good stewardship can complicate things.

 

[The Jason]

In theory they could but it runs into all sorts of other questions. For example my basement isn't sensibly habitable - it's an unfinished space with an uneven floor, a ceiling that's a bit low in places, no heating etc.

It's better than park bench, maybe not a car.

 

[Lamb]

I feel like churches need to be more personal in helping the homeless. For instance, why, assuming the homeless person isn't violent, can't the/she be invited into a church member's home, even if it's the basement? Think about it.

Our church basement is used by another church, so that wouldn't work. Also, there is the point that no one is there to watch them if they were to commit crimes (as in if other homeless people were there too). Insurance might not apply if it was a habitation instead of a place of worship? Heating/cooling bills are already a burden on some smaller churches and that would be even more for them.

 

[tango]

It's better than park bench, maybe not a car.

For the homeless person, perhaps, although not necessarily by very much.. But that doesn't address any of the other concerns - insurance, security, personal safety, etc.

 

[The Jason]

From what I heard from at least two people, homeless people dislike shelters. One guy even commented that prison was better.

 

[Lamb]

From what I heard from at least two people, homeless people dislike shelters. One guy even commented that prison was better.

Did they say why they hated the shelters? I thought a warm meal and clean bed would be nice in the winter?

 

[The Jason]

Did they say why they hated the shelters? I thought a warm meal and clean bed would be nice in the winter?

It seems like it is difficult to get along with other guests because of security. Perhaps they don't like the staff.

 

[Castle Church]

As a Floridian I highly endorse this law. Nobody has a right to live in public spaces. The people that choose to do so as a "lifestyle" and not due to a temporary issue do so to continue some sort of illicit behavior, addiction, or have a mental condition - these people should be housed in public housing, rehab, or prison. If public housing or rehab are not safe, that is a different issue that can be fixed with better policing and policies. I have no issue with my tax dollars funding directly for these services or being used to fund third parties for these services. But simply remaining on the street because you want to is not a solution that benefits the individual or society at large.

 

[The Jason]

Some places literally have no shelters, like many rural areas across the US. Well, one rural county I was at in Virginia had at least 100 homeless people according to a police report.

 

[tango]

Did they say why they hated the shelters? I thought a warm meal and clean bed would be nice in the winter?

If it is a clean bed it would be good. From what I gather some shelters don't allow pets (a problem if you have a dog on the basis it's your only companion), and you probably have to comply with a lot more rules than if you're living on the street.

If you're sharing a room with a bunch of other people who are noisy, or if they steal what little stuff you have, it doesn't necessarily offer much over and above being on the street. You can get out of the cold but for some people that might be about the only benefit.