USA Trump on Muslims

Ruth

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You have made your points tango. I have a right to my opinions, too, and you can't change my mind now about doing something about terrorism. We are in a huge war in the middle east and our soldiers are there to help save us from terrorism. If we weren't trying to wipe out ISIS there would be more of them killing us. Didn't you see all the beheadings they did? Even letting one or two terrorists into our country can mean the death of hundreds or thousands as was with 9/11.
 

psalms 91

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You mentioned vetting before Bill. What exactly is vetting? I know it already takes some people 2 years to enter this country because of background checks. I am glad they are being thorough about it.

I see what you mean. There definitely is a problem with terrorism and we have to do something to try and stop it.

We are not putting anyone in camps just telling them they have to be scrutinized before they enter this country. I am glad it is not easy for anyone to enter this country now a days.
Netting is the process that the go through to make sure they are not radical, obviously the process has problems and needs fixed
 

tango

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You have made your points tango. I have a right to my opinions, too, and you can't change my mind now about doing something about terrorism. We are in a huge war in the middle east and our soldiers are there to help save us from terrorism. If we weren't trying to wipe out ISIS there would be more of them killing us. Didn't you see all the beheadings they did? Even letting one or two terrorists into our country can mean the death of hundreds or thousands as was with 9/11.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about doing something about terrorism. The important thing is to do something useful rather than something that looks good as a newspaper headline, and keeping the threat of terrorism in perspective. Nobody thinks twice about getting in their car despite being far more likely to be killed in a road traffic accident than being killed by a terrorist. And if we focus too much on something we expect to be able to spot by eye (e.g. the idea that "A Muslim" is a young man with brown skin and a beard) we're more likely to be fooled by people who match the threat but not the visual appearance. A Muslim could be a young man with white skin and a beard.

I know they behead hostages, and I'm not trying to say that what they do is anything other than atrocious. But the fact remains that the number of people killed by terrorism is minute compared to the number of people killed in road traffic accidents, among other hazards we don't even consider when going about our day-to-day lives. Even the number of people killed on 9/11 was far less than the number of people killed on the roads in 2001, yet outside of immediate circles nobody remembers the untold casualties of our roads.

It's also important to make sure that we do something that doesn't fan the flames. Terrorists generally don't want to restrict their activities to only hit military targets - they want people to be afraid so they target areas where innocent civilians are likely to be gathering. But if we damage or destroy innocent facilities we can't really write off the deaths of foreign civilians as little more than collateral damage if we want to maintain the moral high ground if our own civilians are attacked.

At the same time we also need to be careful that we don't end up doing the terrorists' jobs for them. As it stands if a terrorist group manages to pull off a single attack the people start clamoring for the government to Do Something To Protect Us, and willingly surrender their hard won freedoms in the hope of getting some protection from the (largely undefined) group that represents the bogeyman of the day. So if we close the borders and don't let anyone in at all, as a security precaution, we can kiss goodbye to large parts of the tourist industry. As jobs are lost in tourism the families affected cut back on their spending which causes further economic losses, and so a single successful attack has its impact amplified by a frightened population.

To use an analogy, if we are bitten on the arm by a mosquito the solution is to use antihistamines to stop the itching and insect repellant to make it less likely to happen again. Cutting our arm off to stop the itching and make sure it's never bitten again works in theory but is a totally disproportionate and unhelpful response even though it guarantees a stop to the itching and guarantees the arm won't be bitten again.
 

Ruth

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I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about doing something about terrorism. The important thing is to do something useful rather than something that looks good as a newspaper headline, and keeping the threat of terrorism in perspective. Nobody thinks twice about getting in their car despite being far more likely to be killed in a road traffic accident than being killed by a terrorist. And if we focus too much on something we expect to be able to spot by eye (e.g. the idea that "A Muslim" is a young man with brown skin and a beard) we're more likely to be fooled by people who match the threat but not the visual appearance. A Muslim could be a young man with white skin and a beard.

I know they behead hostages, and I'm not trying to say that what they do is anything other than atrocious. But the fact remains that the number of people killed by terrorism is minute compared to the number of people killed in road traffic accidents, among other hazards we don't even consider when going about our day-to-day lives. Even the number of people killed on 9/11 was far less than the number of people killed on the roads in 2001, yet outside of immediate circles nobody remembers the untold casualties of our roads.

It's also important to make sure that we do something that doesn't fan the flames. Terrorists generally don't want to restrict their activities to only hit military targets - they want people to be afraid so they target areas where innocent civilians are likely to be gathering. But if we damage or destroy innocent facilities we can't really write off the deaths of foreign civilians as little more than collateral damage if we want to maintain the moral high ground if our own civilians are attacked.

At the same time we also need to be careful that we don't end up doing the terrorists' jobs for them. As it stands if a terrorist group manages to pull off a single attack the people start clamoring for the government to Do Something To Protect Us, and willingly surrender their hard won freedoms in the hope of getting some protection from the (largely undefined) group that represents the bogeyman of the day. So if we close the borders and don't let anyone in at all, as a security precaution, we can kiss goodbye to large parts of the tourist industry. As jobs are lost in tourism the families affected cut back on their spending which causes further economic losses, and so a single successful attack has its impact amplified by a frightened population.

To use an analogy, if we are bitten on the arm by a mosquito the solution is to use antihistamines to stop the itching and insect repellant to make it less likely to happen again. Cutting our arm off to stop the itching and make sure it's never bitten again works in theory but is a totally disproportionate and unhelpful response even though it guarantees a stop to the itching and guarantees the arm won't be bitten again.

I'll say it again. Several terrorists caused 9/11 that killed thousands of people. They can do something similar again. They have proven to be creative in a bad way. We are not going to stop the tourism industry by scrutinizing Muslims only. Yes, there are some Muslims who don't look the stereotypical Muslim and it will be hard to guard against them. I'm trying to trust our government to do it's homework on those people, too. I think the govt. has to figure out the best ways to protect against further terrorism and they have an entire bureau devoted to that now. I don't know what is the best answer but trying to trust that a lot is being done now to protect us.
 

Lamb

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I agree with you in that the government should be doing its job better. Isn't there a problem with some really bad people getting into the country? Or people who have gone through some training that was meant to harm others?
 

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I agree with you in that the government should be doing its job better. Isn't there a problem with some really bad people getting into the country? Or people who have gone through some training that was meant to harm others?

Well, the shooters in San Bernadino proved that some really bad people are in this country already and it was easy for the wife to get in. I hope the govt. will be more vigilant now.
 

psalms 91

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Well, the shooters in San Bernadino proved that some really bad people are in this country already and it was easy for the wife to get in. I hope the govt. will be more vigilant now.

But, what could have been done ? They were admitted years ago. Many have been admitted since they were admitted in.. How do you tell who has the intent to do violence?
 

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Ruth

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But, what could have been done ? They were admitted years ago. Many have been admitted since they were admitted in.. How do you tell who has the intent to do violence?

She had only been in this country since last year on a fiance visa. They now know they should have checked her Facebook account where she said she wanted to do Jihad.
 

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But, what could have been done ? They were admitted years ago. Many have been admitted since they were admitted in.. How do you tell who has the intent to do violence?

She had only been in this country since last year on a fiance visa. They now know they should have checked her Facebook account where she said she wanted to do Jihad.
 

psalms 91

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Yes, they need to do a better job and until they do it should be shut down
 

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Shut down the whole immigration and tourism?
 

psalms 91

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Obviously it isnt working as it is so yes, shut it down and fix it
 

Ruth

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Obviously it isnt working as it is so yes, shut it down and fix it

Well, I hate to tell you this. It's not going to happen.
 

psalms 91

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Perhaps not but I fear that we will have more of this because of that
 

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I think there are already some Muslims in our country intent on doing us harm. San Bernadino proved that.
 

tango

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I'll say it again. Several terrorists caused 9/11 that killed thousands of people. They can do something similar again. They have proven to be creative in a bad way. We are not going to stop the tourism industry by scrutinizing Muslims only. Yes, there are some Muslims who don't look the stereotypical Muslim and it will be hard to guard against them. I'm trying to trust our government to do it's homework on those people, too. I think the govt. has to figure out the best ways to protect against further terrorism and they have an entire bureau devoted to that now. I don't know what is the best answer but trying to trust that a lot is being done now to protect us.

You can say it as many times as you like but the fact remains that the number of Muslims who caused 9/11 is vanishingly small compared to the number of Muslims out there who aren't violent and don't want to blow anything up. The problem is bad people in general, regardless of what deity they follow or whether they have brown skin and beards.

If you want to restrict a billion people worldwide based on the actions of a few dozen, what happens when you come under increased government scrutiny and face ever more restrictions on your day-to-day life for being a Christian and therefore associated by implication with the nutjobs who blow up abortion clinics? Unless you can explain how the rationale is any different then sooner or later you need to accept that the prevention of terrorism has to focus on identifying people who are terrorists, which is a vastly more sophisticated process than "Muslim bad, non-Muslim good".

Timothy McVeigh wasn't a Muslim. Should we restrict young men with blond hair and blue eyes, you know, to be safe?
 

tango

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Obviously it isnt working as it is so yes, shut it down and fix it

Shut down tourism? Are you serious? How much of the US economy would dry up overnight?

The crucial thing we must avoid in a situation like this is to panic and do the terrorists' jobs for them. The way things are they pull off one major attack and everybody clamors for Nanny State to protect them, meaning the terrorists don't need to do any more.

Ultimately the question we have to ask is whether we want to live in a free and open society. If we do, we have to accept that the price we pay for that is that it's easier for undesirables to cause trouble. If you (generic you) really want to live under a police state it's just a question of time before you become associated with an undesirable group based on a tenuous link and reined in by the very government you hoped would protect you.
 

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I was pointing out that only several muslims killed THOUSANDS of US citizens during 9/11. That was the point I was trying to make. It only takes a few to do severe harm. I know there are many good Muslims. They are not the problem at hand. I didn't say to ban Muslims. I am only asking others what they think of banning them. Geez, trying to get my point accross is hard work.


You can say it as many times as you like but the fact remains that the number of Muslims who caused 9/11 is vanishingly small compared to the number of Muslims out there who aren't violent and don't want to blow anything up. The problem is bad people in general, regardless of what deity they follow or whether they have brown skin and beards.

If you want to restrict a billion people worldwide based on the actions of a few dozen, what happens when you come under increased government scrutiny and face ever more restrictions on your day-to-day life for being a Christian and therefore associated by implication with the nutjobs who blow up abortion clinics? Unless you can explain how the rationale is any different then sooner or later you need to accept that the prevention of terrorism has to focus on identifying people who are terrorists, which is a vastly more sophisticated process than "Muslim bad, non-Muslim good".

Timothy McVeigh wasn't a Muslim. Should we restrict young men with blond hair and blue eyes, you know, to be safe?
 
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