Keep Religion OUT of Public Schools!

[Albion]

The subject is 'to keep religion and God out of public schools'.

There is no problem with my approach.

But there is no problem keeping religion and God out of the public schools since they are already banned from the public schools. That is one main reason your constant refrain misses the point.

Would you rather have God and Christianity back in the public schools, or would your rather leave them in the atheism and chaos they are now in?

The question is pertinent to the subject.

Lees

The question has no particular meaning in the real world but only as a hypothetical.

Would I/we like to have God back in the public schools? Well, yes, under certain circumstances. But we don't have that at present and we DO have children to educate at present.

I don't see anyone here saying that they are categorically opposed to public schools teaching religion, yet you instantly took offense when Josiah said that he sends his children to a parochial school.

 

[Lees]

In The People's Republic of California - one of (if not THE) most liberal, secular states in the USA - it is legally REQUIRED of all school districts to make FULL KNOWN exactly what will and will not be taught or presented or done in the classroom. You can go to the District Office, anytime within business hours, no appointment necessary - and see the curriculum and all else related to the classroom - BEFORE your child is exposed to it. AND you have the legal right to "opt out" of this, but of course you need to know - exactly - what it is that would otherwise be presented, taught, done.

@Lee, what you are proposing - "putting God and Christianity into public schools" WITHOUT telling us WHAT would be taught and not taught - is illegal in California. You MUST state - in print - to ALL parents to see and read - EXACTLY what will and will not be presented. So that parents can choose to have the school impose this on their child OR opt out. BUT they MUST know exactly WHAT will be taught. The full curriculum, the policies, the procedures MUST be made fully available. Parents can even take it home to preview it on their own, at home. IT's the law.

But you won't tell us. You REFUSE to disclose what God and what Christianity Big Government would put into its schools, what God and religion would you insist the Government would impose upon my son. You REFUSE to say, you evidently want California (or Planned Parenthood or whatever curriculum provider it chooses) to decide - and hide it from parents.


@Lees

I KNOW exactly where the Catholic Church stands on EVERY ONE of the points in post 37 - all of them - every one of them - AND I know where the Catholic School my son attends on EVERY ONE of the points above. I KNOW... on ALL of the points above. THEREFORE, I can assess if it's acceptable or not. But you won't state ANYTHING about what your scenario would teach and impose on my son. NOTHING. You want the government owned and run public school to just pull out of hat WHATEVER it wants - without anyone knowing what will and won't be presented to my son. You refuse to disclose WHAT God and WHAT Christianity would be forced on my son by the State. You won't address any of the points in post 37, much less all of them, therefore, it's impossible to know if your proposal would be better or worse (perhaps MUCH worse). Only that it's illegal for a public school to do as you want - force feed something to my child without fully disclosing in advance WHAT God and WHAT Christianity it would impose. Stop your the absolute evasion and dodge. Address every one of the points - all of them - otherwise, your point is meaningless, your proposal illegal, and your question here obviously unanswerable.

Who cares? it's illegal any way to have God and Christianity in the public schools.

You're not paying attention, or purposefully trying to force the doctrine issue. I have said before, putting God and Christ back in the schools need not have any particular doctrine taught. Go back and reread.

If your fine with the Roman church and school, great. Have at it. What I have said is having God and Christianity back in the public schools doesn't mean they are the Church. They don't need to teach the doctrine of certain denominations. But they represent Christianity. allowing prayer, rejecting science when it opts for the teaching of evolution, rejecting the teaching of acceptance with LGB alphabet perverts, etc. etc.

Again, you don't want to answer my question because it finds you guilty of the problem. Yet your actions say otherwise.

Lees

 

[Josiah]

Who cares?

There we have it. And that's your problem. You don't think it matters if God and Christianity are true or false, correct or incorrect, right or wrong - all that matters is that this WHATEVER is imposed by the State on my son is called "God" and "Christianity."

I disagree with you. I think truth matters. I think public schools should not tell my kid anything it wants and tell him "THAT'S God!" "THAT'S Christianity." I'd rather the state say nothing about what is and is not Christianity than impose a lot of HORRIBLE, WRONG, HERETICAL, silly, stupid, sinful things and insist that THAT'S what Christianity is, tell my son, "THAT'S God."


You want us to choose.... either what now exists in our schools OR ____________ (you won't say what - just that the government calls it God and Christianity). If you want me to choose, you need to indicate choose WHAT? But you refuse, absolutely and stubbornly REFUSE to say what, WHAT will the public school is to present and call "Christian" and "God?" Either you don't think it matters - at all - or you assume California will ask YOU to write the curriculum, policies, devotions, prayers, etc. so that it's acceptable to YOU (and that's all that matters). The first is horrific. The second is absolutely laughable.

But they represent Christianity.

But you persistently, stubbornly REFUSE to say WHAT Christianity. That's the issue. Perhaps you are just a radical relativist or believe that Christianity is empty, void, believes nothing - so there's nothing for schools to present. Or you think all schools will just look to YOU for what it should present and represent, whatever is acceptable to just little 'ole YOU. I reject all of those.



.

 

[Josiah]

I don't see anyone here saying that they are categorically opposed to public schools teaching religion,

@Albion

IMO, it would depend on WHAT religion it is teaching to my son. FIRST, I'd want to KNOW the curriculum (it's the law in California and I think all states), the government can't HIDE it and REFUSE to disclose it the way Lees desires. I KNOW where my son's Catholic school stands on all the points I've raised to Lees, ALL of which he regards as irrelevant, moot, unimportant. Because I KNOW exactly what will be taught and done, all the policies surrounding religion, I can decide if that's acceptable or not. But Lees wants this unknown, hidden - either because he thinks Christianity embraces NOTHING so there's nothing to disclose or that Truth just doesn't matter (at all).


As I've conveyed a few times here, THEORETICALLY, religion could be brought into public schools. In most Muslim countries, 100% of the population is of the same religion and same understanding of all issues related to God and religion. There religion CAN be taught by the State in public schools (and is). There may be some small town in Texas or North Dakota where this situation exists too - all the people, all the parents, all the kids have ONE single view of God and Christianity - perhaps they all attend the same church in town. But that's not how it is in most of the USA. Christianity here is very diverse.... even in small town Texas there's a church on every corner, why? Because they each teach a different Christianity. Now, we can (and should) respect and love each other - but we have DIFFERENT forms of the faith, different enough that we go to different churches. There is no dominate denomination in the US. The Catholic Church comes closest (by far) but it's only 21% of the population, FAR from a majority. And there are greater differences among Protestants here than between a lot of Protestants and the Catholic Church. It's just not tenable here. And Lees plan - that we "teach Christianity" but teach NOTHING is silly and worse.

Now, even in California (arguably the most liberal and godless state in the US!) student are welcome to wear crosses and religious t-shirts, they can bring their Bible to school and read it in their free time, they can have student lead and attended Bible studies, they can pray silently as long as it doesn't interfere with instruction, many high schools have a "prayer around the flag pole" every morning before school, any football player can lead a prayer for the team before a game, students can evangelize others on campus. If a student wants to miss school for religious reasons - say to attend Ash Wednesday Mass - that's permissible, the public school must allow it. And that's the policy in probably THE most liberal, godless, secular state in the US (well, there's Vermont) so I assume it's the same in the other 49. Because NONE OF THAT is imposing or teaching or inserting any religion - any view of God or Christianity - by the state. And I support that. But that's the CURRENT reality that Lees wants us to displace.

Are you and I in a very different place on this?


Blessings!


- Josiah



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[Lees]

There we have it. And that's your problem. You don't think it matters if God and Christianity are true or false, correct or incorrect, right or wrong - all that matters is that this WHATEVER is imposed by the State on my son is called "God" and "Christianity."

I disagree with you. I think truth matters. I think public schools should not tell my kid anything it wants and tell him "THAT'S God!" "THAT'S Christianity." I'd rather the state say nothing about what is and is not Christianity than impose a lot of HORRIBLE, WRONG, HERETICAL, silly, stupid, sinful things and insist that THAT'S what Christianity is, tell my son, "THAT'S God."


You want us to choose.... either what now exists in our schools OR ____________ (you won't say what - just that the government calls it God and Christianity). If you want me to choose, you need to indicate choose WHAT? But you refuse, absolutely and stubbornly REFUSE to say what, WHAT will the public school is to present and call "Christian" and "God?" Either you don't think it matters - at all - or you assume California will ask YOU to write the curriculum, policies, devotions, prayers, etc. so that it's acceptable to YOU (and that's all that matters). The first is horrific. The second is absolutely laughable.





But you persistently, stubbornly REFUSE to say WHAT Christianity. That's the issue. Perhaps you are just a radical relativist or believe that Christianity is empty, void, believes nothing - so there's nothing for schools to present. Or you think all schools will just look to YOU for what it should present and represent, whatever is acceptable to just little 'ole YOU. I reject all of those.

No, you just isolate a certain portion of a sentence to recreate something you want to say. It's also called cherry picking and deception if not lying. "Who cares" pertained to what California requires in a public school. But that doesn't matter as Christianity is illegal to be in the schools anyway. Thus your example, and now your deception, are null and void...but revealing.

If you think truth matters, why are you willing to keep God out of schools and allow atheism and immorality and evolution to be taught? Is that teaching 'truth'. You would rather lies be taught in the schools then have God and Christianity back in the schools. Then you high tail it out of the schools to the Roman Catholics. But of course...'truth matters'.

No, I have been very clear. God and Christianity needs to be back in the schools. And I have explained, which you ignore. Your support of 'separation of church and state' created this problem. And your only solution is to run away instead of facing it and admitting your error.

Your actions speak for themselves as they are contrary to your words. You say God and Christianity should be taken out of schools. Then you pull your kids out of schools and place them in a Roman Catholic school, which is not your preference, to avoid the public schools. Your views caused the problem but you don't want your kids to pay the price for your error. But you don't care if other kids must pay the price. But oh...wait...there is a solution. Send your kids to Roman Catholic schools.

It is clear that you don't want God in public schools because you don't want Protestants involved in public schools. You fear the Protestant doctrines as anti-Catholic, and don't want that in the schools. You don't fear the Roman doctrine, else you wouldn't put your kids in their school.

In other words, you want the Roman doctrine taught. And God being allowed in public schools, threatens that, you believe. All the while claiming to be Lutheran. Yet, as I said, Luther probably rolled over at that.

All I wanted you to do is answer the question. But never mind. What you have said, and your actions, and what you refuse to say, says it all.

Lees

 

[Albion]

IMO, it would depend on WHAT religion it is teaching to my son.

Absolutely. That's why I wrote that no one is categorically opposed. Since much of what our friend is arguing seems to be theoretical rather than practical, we may ask who among us would oppose the teaching of religion in public schools under every conceivable scenario (even ones that we know have no chance, such as the public schools teaching everything you or I approve of doctrinally and nothing that we don't approve of in advance).

FIRST, I'd want to KNOW the curriculum (it's the law in California and I think all states), the government can't HIDE it and REFUSE to disclose it the way Lees desires. I KNOW where my son's Catholic school stands on all the points I've raised to Lees, ALL of which he regards as irrelevant, moot, unimportant. Because I KNOW exactly what will be taught and done, all the policies surrounding religion, I can decide if that's acceptable or not. But Lees wants this unknown, hidden - either because he thinks Christianity embraces NOTHING so there's nothing to disclose or that Truth just doesn't matter (at all).

That's exactly correct.

As I've conveyed a few times here, THEORETICALLY, religion could be brought into public schools. In most Muslim countries, 100% of the population is of the same religion and same understanding of all issues related to God and religion. There religion CAN be taught by the State in public schools (and is). There may be some small town in Texas or North Dakota where this situation exists too - all the people, all the parents, all the kids have ONE single view of God and Christianity - perhaps they all attend the same church in town. But that's not how it is in most of the USA. Christianity here is very diverse.... even in small town Texas there's a church on every corner, why? Because they each teach a different Christianity. Now, we can (and should) respect and love each other - but we have DIFFERENT forms of the faith, different enough that we go to different churches. There is no dominate denomination in the US. The Catholic Church comes closest (by far) but it's only 21% of the population, FAR from a majority. And there are greater differences among Protestants here than between a lot of Protestants and the Catholic Church.

Agree completely.

Are you and I in a very different place on this?

I don't think so.

 

[Josiah]

If you think truth matters

@Lees

This seems to be the crux of our disagreement. I think truth matters.... that when the Government states to my son "THIS is God...." "THIS is what Christianity is and believes" I think it matters if that's true or not. You seem to believe it's irrelevant. You refuse to say WHAT the Government should embrace as "GOD" and "CHRISTIANITY." It seems entirely irrelevant to you - WHATEVER California wants to present to my son under the label of "GOD" and "CHRISTIANITY" is just super keen and wonderful to you.

You would rather lies be taught in the schools

I see that as your problem, my friend. You're okay with gross, horrible, heretical LIES being taught to my son by his school - as long as its about "GOD" and "CHRISTIANITY." Sure, I think some things that are taught in public schools aren't true (I have a doctorate in Physics, and some of the physics curriculum of California is SORELY outdated and wrong). But I don't think schools also LYING about God and Christianity is any better (indeed, I think it's worse).

And odd that you'd select evolution as an issue.... because a LOT of Christians and Protestant denominations hold that evolution is true. Check it out online - I did, and the figures are 77% to 83% of American Protestants believe that evolution is true. And 12 of the largest Protestant Churches believe so. So, California telling kids what Christianity holds, would they not tell our kids that Christianity teaches evolution? After all, the great majority aren't on your side. See, you REFUSE to say what is true and false in Christianity - you REFUSE to address all but one issue in all those I brought up in post 37 - because evidently only ONE thing matters to you - and it's one that most of Protestants disagree with you on. What in your wild imagination makes you think that California would not say that evolution IS the Christian position? It would have a LOT of Christians and Christian churches agreeing there - but NOW, in your plan - evolution would not be presented as a scientific position but as Christianity. And by the way, the other things I brought up in post 37 - that you indicated are moot, ALL positions around them equally okay - impact Christianity a LOT more than the one you focused on. I'd not be surprised if you don't even know what half of them are. But you insist they're irrelevant - they may or may not be taught. "Whatever."

God and Christianity needs to be in the schools.

You just REFUSE to say WHAT Christianity, WHOSE Christianity... WHAT God, WHOSE God. Don't matter, it seems.... truth is irrelevant. At least when it comes to God and Christianity.

God being allowed in public schools, threatens that, you believe.

Well, I believe that truth matters. That does seem to be the crux of our disagreement. You want the State to impose a view of God and Christianity into the schools, forced upon my son, and you don't seem to care whether those views are right or wrong, truth or lies - just that it has the label of "GOD" and "CHRISTIANITY" so as to interfere with what parents teach on those things and to give the state more power over our kids. You don't like that in YOUR view, evolution is not "Christian" (a LOT of Protestants disagree with you there) and its matters that the State is wrong in what it teaches, but you don't give a RIP what it teaches about God and Christianity. I find that fascinating.

IF truth matters concerning God and Christianity.... IF you give a rip WHAT the State supports, teaches, affirms about those... then you need to AT LEAST, AT THE VERY LEAST, address ALL of the things mentioned in post 37. The Catholic School does, why do you think the State must not? Why does truth matter in evolution but not when it comes to God, Christ, the Church, the Bible, morality, Baptism, Communion and many, many, many more issues? Odd. Very odd. Maybe God and Christianity actually don't matter to you at all? Thus what the public school would present about them doesn't matter to you? "Whatever" seems to be your mantra.


You demand that we choose between the current situation (see paragraph 3 of post 44) OR the State teaching _______________ (we don't know what, you won't say -evidently ANYTHING it wants, and call it "GOD" and "Christianity"). We'll, it's impossible to choose. When you address all the issues in post 37... the issues the Catholic school did.... I can say. Until then, choosing a complete blank would be very foolish.



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[Albion]

It is clear that you don't want God in public schools because you don't want Protestants involved in public schools.

In other words, you want the Roman doctrine taught.

Again, it seems evident that when you are unable to defend your contentions on their own merits, you start explaining that failure by claiming to have identified some unpleasant motive in your opponent.

That's a way of trying to save face, but it's so transparent that those who resort to it might just as well 'throw in the towel' without further delay as choose to go that route.

 

[Lees]

Again, it seems evident that when you are unable to defend your contentions on their own merits, you start explaining that failure by claiming to have identified some unpleasant motive in your opponent.

That's a way of trying to save face, but it's so transparent that those who resort to it might just as well 'throw in the towel' without further delay as choose to go that route.

What is evident is that both you and your 'bud' won't answer my question. You can brown nose each other all you like, but you both refuse to answer my question.

Why? It can only be for the reasons I have given.

Why should I save face? I know what I have stated is true. I can answer your questions. You and your bud won't answer mine.

If you're weary, then be quiet. I'm not weary.

Lees

 

[Stravinsk]

Meh, I haven't read all the responses here, but if I had kid(s), I would follow the example of my neighbors - home school them. Rather, I'd assist my wife in home schooling them. While I don't think my government schooling was great (contained plenty of lies about history), at least it didn't try to make me question my gender, encourage homosexuality, or sexualize me from a young age.

IMO, children today are being groomed for a modern day Sodom and Gomorrah.

Judge Rules Child Can Be Chemically Castrated: Mom Wants To Mutilate Son Against Father’s Wishes

 

[Josiah]

@Lees

I can answer your questions.

GREAT! Address each point below. Each and every one. WHAT, exactly, will each school say to my son about each? Tell us exactly WHAT each public school will teach and do concerning each of the following viewpoints, all found in American Christianity, nearly all among American Protestants.

Universalism
Sabellianism
Monarchianism
Modalism
Psilanyhropism
Arianisim
Pelagianism
Trinitarianism
Tritheism
The Apostles', Nicene and Athanasian Creeds
The Seven Ecumenical Councils
Marcionism
Antidicomarians
Mary as the Theodokos
Nestorianism
Jesus is 100% God and 100% man
Jesus is 100% God and not a man.
Jesus is 100% man and not God.
Jesus is the Savior - not you.
Jesus makes salvation possible but you are saved by choosing to accept His offer.
"Decision" theology
Predestination in initial justification
Double predestination - both to the saved and the damned.
Quietism
Infant baptism
Anti-paedobaptism
Baptism by immersion only
Baptism by sprinkling, pouring or dipping are perfectly okay
Jesus founded the Catholic Church
Satan is real.
Satan is a personification of evil.
The Bible contains 66 books. Or 73. Or 78. Or 82. Which?
The Bible is the Word of God or contains the Word of God or is the words of men about God?
Abortion is a sin
Abortion is okay.
Same sex marriage is a sin
Same sex marriage is okay and should be blessed by the church.
God created the world in 6 24-hour days
God used "the Big Bang" and Evolution and other aspects of science in His creative work.
We are saved by faith + works.
We are saved without works.
God gives faith
We choose faith
Birth Control is sinful.
Catholics worship Mary and thus commit idolatry
In Communion, Christ is physically present
In Communion, Christ is symbolically present
Christmas is a pagan holiday and not to be celebrated.
Pentecostalism.
Baptism is essential for salvation, no salvation without it.
Baptism is only an outward sign of an inward faith
Once saved - always saved.
There are 7 Sacraments.
There are 2 Sacraments.
There are NO Sacraments.
,

When we know exactly WHAT the alternative is.... WHAT each public school will insert and start teaching my son ... only then can we decide if the schools teaching THAT would be better than the current situation. But you leave us with a silly, laughable, impossible question: Do we prefer the current situation (paragraph 3 of post 44) OR _____________________ (you refuse to say). Address the list above (as the Catholic school did) - all of them, each one - and I'll have at least some idea of what the alternative would be, WHAT God, WHAT Christianity would be imposed upon our schools.



@Lees BTW, not that you care, but what you propose is illegal. In the name of parental rights, Schools MUST fully disclose in writing
exactly what will be taught, presented, affirmed - and how it will be. This MUST be available - in writing - at the District Office during normal business hours. Saying "We will teach God" without specifically indicating IN WRITING exactly - exactly - what will be said, that's illegal. It violates parental rights. Not that you care. You'd need to SPELL OUT the issues we keep presenting to you, in clear and exact words. A basic parental right you seem to disagree with.


.

 

[Lees]

@Lees

This seems to be the crux of our disagreement. I think truth matters.... that when the Government states to my son "THIS is God...." "THIS is what Christianity is and believes" I think it matters if that's true or not. You seem to believe it's irrelevant. You refuse to say WHAT the Government should embrace as "GOD" and "CHRISTIANITY." It seems entirely irrelevant to you - WHATEVER California wants to present to my son under the label of "GOD" and "CHRISTIANITY" is just super keen and wonderful to you.





I see that as your problem, my friend. You're okay with gross, horrible, heretical LIES being taught to my son by his school - as long as its about "GOD" and "CHRISTIANITY." Sure, I think some things that are taught in public schools aren't true (I have a doctorate in Physics, and some of the physics curriculum of California is SORELY outdated and wrong). But I don't think schools also LYING about God and Christianity is any better (indeed, I think it's worse).

And odd that you'd select evolution as an issue.... because a LOT of Christians and Protestant denominations hold that evolution is true. Check it out online - I did, and the figures are 77% to 83% of American Protestants believe that evolution is true. And 12 of the largest Protestant Churches believe so. So, California telling kids what Christianity holds, would they not tell our kids that Christianity teaches evolution? After all, the great majority aren't on your side. See, you REFUSE to say what is true and false in Christianity - you REFUSE to address all but one issue in all those I brought up in post 37 - because evidently only ONE thing matters to you - and it's one that most of Protestants disagree with you on. What in your wild imagination makes you think that California would not say that evolution IS the Christian position? It would have a LOT of Christians and Christian churches agreeing there - but NOW, in your plan - evolution would not be presented as a scientific position but as Christianity. And by the way, the other things I brought up in post 37 - that you indicated are moot, ALL positions around them equally okay - impact Christianity a LOT more than the one you focused on. I'd not be surprised if you don't even know what half of them are. But you insist they're irrelevant - they may or may not be taught. "Whatever."





You just REFUSE to say WHAT Christianity, WHOSE Christianity... WHAT God, WHOSE God. Don't matter, it seems.... truth is irrelevant. At least when it comes to God and Christianity.





Well, I believe that truth matters. That does seem to be the crux of our disagreement. You want the State to impose a view of God and Christianity into the schools, forced upon my son, and you don't seem to care whether those views are right or wrong, truth or lies - just that it has the label of "GOD" and "CHRISTIANITY" so as to interfere with what parents teach on those things and to give the state more power over our kids. You don't like that in YOUR view, evolution is not "Christian" (a LOT of Protestants disagree with you there) and its matters that the State is wrong in what it teaches, but you don't give a RIP what it teaches about God and Christianity. I find that fascinating.

IF truth matters concerning God and Christianity.... IF you give a rip WHAT the State supports, teaches, affirms about those... then you need to AT LEAST, AT THE VERY LEAST, address ALL of the things mentioned in post 37. The Catholic School does, why do you think the State must not? Why does truth matter in evolution but not when it comes to God, Christ, the Church, the Bible, morality, Baptism, Communion and many, many, many more issues? Odd. Very odd. Maybe God and Christianity actually don't matter to you at all? Thus what the public school would present about them doesn't matter to you? "Whatever" seems to be your mantra.


You demand that we choose between the current situation (see paragraph 3 of post 44) OR the State teaching _______________ (we don't know what, you won't say -evidently ANYTHING it wants, and call it "GOD" and "Christianity"). We'll, it's impossible to choose. When you address all the issues in post 37... the issues the Catholic school did.... I can say. Until then, choosing a complete blank would be very foolish.

Here again you present your lie. I have not failed to say what it means to have God and Christianity back in the schools. I have repeated it many times. You don't like it because it takes away your excuse for not wanting God in public schools.

California is not the reason for the failure of the public schools. Those who hold to the lies of 'separation of church and state' are the reason for the failure in public schools. Like yourself, who seeks a scapegoat in California. Oh, it's not my fault, you say. It's the governments. No. People who hold to 'separation of church and state' are the ones at fault who influenced the government. Just like you. And then you run away when the chickens come home to roost. Yet all the while claiming God must be kept out of public schools, yet run to a Roman school where God and Christianity are represented. What a hypocrite.


No, I said God and Christianity needs to be back in the schools. What 'horrible lies' are you talking about that I wish to see taught your children? California shouldn't get to dictate about God and Christianity being present in public schools. It is something that should never have been removed based on the lie 'separation of church and state'. Which you hold to.

As to the matter of 'evolution' it is clear that it should not be included as science in the public schools. It is nothing but a lie and does not represent Christianity, nor science for that matter. Same with queers and transgenders. You will find a lot of various churches accept gays and queers and transgenders. Even your pope. He blesses them. Do you and your children have good devotions about that? I bet.

The faults and decline of the Church does not remove the need for God and Christianity within the schools. It does require Christians to quit being cowards and stand up to and against these faults. But the need for God and Christianity in the schools remains.

No, I have said the God of the Bible. God and Jesus Christ. You're just not listening.

Your quote of mine, which you only present in part in order to lie again, was in whole that you're threatened about God being in the public schools because your Roman teaching will be left out, and all the while you claim to be Lutheran. You are a walking oxymoron. You claim to be Lutheran but send your children to Roman schools. You don't want God and Christianity in schools but then move your kids to a school where God and Christianity are represented. Leaving the rest of the children high and dry.

No, I have stated that public schools don't need to teach Christian doctrine, but they need to have God and Christianity in the schools. Your actions agree with me. Your word does not.

Lees

 

[Josiah]

I have not failed to say what it means to have God and Christianity in the schools.

You have NEVER remotely said WHAT exactly the public schools would impose my son as true and false about God and Christianity. Come on, EVERYONE HERE knows you have absolutely, totally, persistently dodged the entire issue, refused to say.

The ONLY thing you indicated is that public schools would stop teaching evolution - even though it seems 77% of Protestant Americans believe it's true and 12 of the largest Protestant denominations hold that it's true, so the ONLY thing you seem to care that public schools do is stop teaching evolution (in spite of most Protestants disagreeing with you on that). But everyone reading this thread KNOWS you've dodged every other issue... ALL of them.... EVERYTHING else.... refusing to answer our questions.... refusing to state what the State would teach on all those issues I've presented. I know it. You know it. Everyone knows it.

I said God and Christianity needs to be in the schools.

Yes, you just completely, totally, absolutely REFUSE to say WHAT God, WHAT Christianity. It seems, you don't care.... WHATEVER California wants to say about God and Christianity is just peachy keen with you. AND it doesn't need to say what it will teach; like you, it can keep it all secret.

You will find a lot of various churches accept gays and queers and transgenders.

Yes, a lot of Christians (including Protestants) think that's Christian and biblical. So, if the schools go by what a lot of Christians THINK is Christian, yes - those things would be taught, as would evolution. But YOUR will is that those things we taught AS CHRISTIAN.


Which just underline my point - the one you SO passionately evade. I'll ask AGAIN, yet again, still one more time - although everyone knows I'm wasting my time.... WHAT - exactly, precisely - do you propose that each public school teach and affirm about God and Christianity, imposing such on my son, declaring IS God and Christianity? WHAT? You REFUSE to tell us. Persistently. Absolutely. If my son's Catholic School had done as you do, I'd RUN - as fast as I could - run away from it. But it didn't dodge, didn't allude, didn't hide. It addressed EACH AND EVERY ONE. Fully. Completely.

Here's the issues you need to fully address, so we know WHAT you propose the State to force upon my son and state that it's God and Christians:

Universalism
Sabellianism
Monarchianism
Modalism
Psilanyhropism
Arianisim
Pelagianism
Trinitarianism
Tritheism
The Apostles', Nicene and Athanasian Creeds
The Seven Ecumenical Councils
Marcionism
Antidicomarians
Mary as the Theodokos
Nestorianism
Jesus is 100% God and 100% man
Jesus is 100% God and not a man.
Jesus is 100% man and not God.
Jesus is the Savior - not you.
Jesus makes salvation possible but you are saved by choosing to accept His offer.
"Decision" theology
Predestination in initial justification
Double predestination - both to the saved and the damned.
Quietism
Infant baptism
Anti-paedobaptism
Baptism by immersion only
Baptism by sprinkling, pouring or dipping are perfectly okay
Jesus founded the Catholic Church
Satan is real.
Satan is a personification of evil.
The Bible contains 66 books. Or 73. Or 78. Or 82. Which?
The Bible is the Word of God or contains the Word of God or is the words of men about God?
Abortion is a sin
Abortion is okay.
Same sex marriage is a sin
Same sex marriage is okay and should be blessed by the church.
God created the world in 6 24-hour days
God used "the Big Bang" and Evolution and other aspects of science in His creative work.
We are saved by faith + works.
We are saved without works.
God gives faith
We choose faith
Birth Control is sinful.
Catholics worship Mary and thus commit idolatry
In Communion, Christ is physically present
In Communion, Christ is symbolically present
Christmas is a pagan holiday and not to be celebrated.
Pentecostalism.
Baptism is essential for salvation, no salvation without it.
Baptism is only an outward sign of an inward faith
Once saved - always saved.
There are 7 Sacraments.
There are 2 Sacraments.
There are NO Sacraments.


You repeatedly said you'd answer our questions.... I've asked this absolutely necessary one, one that MUST be clear before your question can be answered.... but so far, you've dodged, evaded, hid. You've evaded EVERY SINGLE ONE of these. Obviously, you don't give a rip what is and isn't taught/presented/affirmed as God and Christianity.

I have stated that public schools don't need to teach Christian doctrine, but they need to have God and Christianity in the schools

@Lees, "Doctrine" of course is the affirmation of what is true. So, you don't want the schools to say what is true. Or at least truth is completely irrelevant to you. So, let's say a public school teaches AS CHRISTIANITY, TEACHING THIS IS CHRISTIANITY that Jesus was gay and a transvestite, that he was in no no way God, that he had sex a lot with a prostitute named Mary, and held to socialist/communist views... that's okay with you, because you don't care about doctrine, you don't give a rip about whether what it teaches about God and Christianity is true or not - that's to be avoided, schools are to be exempt from that issue. I SO passionately disagree with you. I do NOT think that THAT would be an improvement over the current situation. I think truth matters - especially when it comes to God and Christianity. You want the State to teach WHATEVER it wants - and call it "GOD" and "CHRISTIANITY" putting the stamp of "this is God... this is Christianity" on whatever that is. Therein lies our disagreement.... therein is why you SO stubbornly refuse to say WHAT - exactly WHAT - the public schools would teach, affirm, present. You just don't give a rip. I do.



.

 

[Lees]

@Josiah concerning post #(53)

No. I have said repeatedly what it would mean to have God and Christianity back in the public schools. Christianity would be the only faith represented by the school system. Atheism would be rejected. Prayer is allowed, and when given, would be to God and Christ. Teaching of evolution would be rejected. Teaching of immorality would be rejected, thus the LGBT alphabet perverts teaching is rejected. The Ten commandments would be allowed to be displayed in the halls or where ever the school wanted to. The Bible is recognized as the Word of God.

No. Bringing God and Christianity back to the schools does not mean the State teaches doctrine to the students. The State would support the schools in representing Christianity, as the State also represents Christianity. Prayers in Congress. The Bible represented when swearing in officials, etc. etc. Christianity is allowed to impact the State and schools. The State is not allowed to remove God and Christ from the schools, as it has done, under the lie of 'separation of church and state'.

No. The schools would represent the truth of Christianity as the one true faith in God. To say that 'representation' must include the false teachings of many so called churches is false. As I have repeatedly said, immorality is not to be taught. And the gross examples you give of Christ would be rejected out of hand.

Our disagreement lies in your contradictory actions and words. You claim you don't want God or Christianity back in the schools. Yet you place your children in a Church run school, and that being one which is not your preference...you say. In other words, you want the safety and security of God and Christianity, yet you refuse it to the vast majority of children with your 'separation of church and state' doctrine.

Which is why you refuse my question of which would you rather have. It reveals your hypocrisy.

Lees

 

[Josiah]

I have said repeatedly what it would mean to have God and Christianity in the public schools.

Friend, everyone here KNOWS that you have gone to great lengths to persistently, stubbornly REFUSED to say ANYTHING AT ALL about what would be said, taught, embraced, done about "God" and "Christianity." You have dodged the entire topic of WHAT would the government "have" concerning God and Christianity. You KNOW this. Everyone does.

Prayer is allowed

WHAT would be the content of such prayer? You refuse to say.

How about this one, every morning: "Our - well, a minority of people, maybe not yours, Father or Mother or Sister or perhaps all 3 or none of those, who is or maybe isn't in heaven if such exists which means God the Cosmic Force isn't here so can't hear this prayer..." You get the idea. In your plan that would be just ducky since you don't give a rip about any of the issues about God that I raised, you claim not one of them matters and schools won't teach anything ('no doctrine' 'who cares' 'whatever'). You seem to oddly, egotistically, ASSUME that the "God" and "Christianity" California schools would embrace would be YOUR God, YOUR Christianity (wow, what an ego!) - but you won't even tell us what YOUR God even is - you claim it doesn't matter, you evade EVERY SINGLE ISSUE about God and Christianity - insisting none of this matters.

You say "to God" but you REFUSE to say what God. I gave you 15 things that help define who/what God is - but you claim that none of that matters and the schools would not address ANY of them - one way or the other. So the "GOD" you insist would be prayed to could be anything , it could be very, very heretical and very offensive to me. Your point that teaching doesn't matter ("no doctrine would be taught') means the Government could impose ANYTHING about God and Christianity it can envision. Anything. Forcing that on my son.... insisting THAT is God, THAT is Christianity.

The Bible is recognized as the Word of God.

Which Bible? WHICH will be so recognized by each State? WHICH will be provided by the state in the classrooms as the text? The original King James Bible or the modern one? The Coptic Bible, the Greek Orthodox Bible, the post-Trent Catholic Bible, the Westminster Confession Bible? The Anglican/Episcopalian Bible of the 39 Articles or the one more commonly in their pews today? Luther's Bible? They are all DIFFERENT. No matter which you choose, a LOT of parents aren't going to agree. WHAT Bible? WHICH Bible? You won't say. It doesn't matter to you. You just say "BIBLE" perhaps unaware that there isn't just one understanding of even what that is - not even in Protestantism. And then there's the whole issue of translations.... There are hundreds of those - and they are often quite different, effecting a lot of teachings. It's interesting, I asked you SEVERAL TIMES to tell us what about the Bible would be taught by the schools - and you said nothing would be, now you say it would be "recognized" as "the Word of God" but we have no clue as to what that means... or what Bible you mean. "No doctrine" you've insisted ... you've indicated that none of the many points I raised matter and none will be addressed - positively or negatively. So why say some Bible (you didn't say which) would be "recognized." And Islam also accepts your Bible.... so do Mormons, both as "the Word of God." But should our schools teach THEIR view of what it says? You won't say. You don't care. "Whatever."

Bringing God and Christianity to the schools does not mean the State teaches doctrine to the students.

So, it can't deny evolution or accept some unknown Bible as anything. You need to make up your mind. Will things be taught or not? Does truth matter or not? Doctrine or no doctrine? For days you've insisted NOTHING will be affirmed or denied ('whatever' 'no doctrine' 'no need to say anything') but now you are selecting a couple of very, very borderline things where Christians are deeply divided (NOT one stand!!!!) while ignoring anything about God or Christ or salvation or any other issue, just your minority view about evolution. So God don't matter..., Christ don't matter.... salvation don't matter.... but evolution does. I find that very strange. But it seems to you, YOU get to choose what the schools convey to my son, but you won't say what that school will force feed my son about God or Christ or any other defining view... you've stubbornly REFUSED to say, indicating it just doesn't matter. You don't care. "Whatever."

State would support the schools in representing Christianity

WHAT Christianity? You just won't say. So, California can present ANYTHING IT WANTS, absolutely anything at all - and tell my son "THIS is Christian, THIS is the Christian view." Jesus was gay. God was a woman. Everyone is saved. And that;s all okay with you. "Whatever." "No doctrine" As long as it doesn't teach evolution - although your personal view on that is that of a small Protestant minority, but California would listen to YOU, just YOU, but only on that one issue.

the schools would represent the truth of Christianity as the one true faith in God.

But you've insisted NO truth should be presented, "NO doctrine."

You have gone to GREAT lengths to avoid saying what is truth and what is false in relation to God, Christ, salvation, the church, the Sacraments, etc ., etc. etc. EVERY TIME you are asked WHAT will be presented, you persistently avoid it. We get from you that it doesn't matter. NOTHING on this will be taught. There is no truth (doctrine), there is no error (Heresy).


I'll ask AGAIN, yet again, still one more time - although everyone knows I'm wasting my time.... WHAT - exactly, precisely - do you propose that each public school teach and affirm about God and Christianity, imposing such on my son, declaring that such IS God and Christianity? WHAT? You REFUSE to tell us. Persistently. Absolutely. If my son's Catholic School had done as you do, I'd RUN - as fast as I could - run away from it. But it didn't dodge, didn't allude, didn't hide. It addressed EACH AND EVERY ONE. Fully. Completely. You've persistently dodged and evaded every one - over and over and over and over and over again.

Here's the issues you need to fully address, so we know WHAT you propose the State to force upon my son and state that it's God and Christians:

Universalism
Sabellianism
Monarchianism
Modalism
Psilanyhropism
Arianisim
Pelagianism
Trinitarianism
Tritheism
The Apostles', Nicene and Athanasian Creeds. True? False? Normative?
The Seven Ecumenical Councils True? False? Normative?
Marcionism
Antidicomarians
Mary as the Theodokos
Nestorianism
Jesus is 100% God and 100% man
Jesus is 100% God and not a man.
Jesus is 100% man and not God.
Jesus is the Savior - not you.
Jesus makes salvation possible but you are saved by choosing to accept His offer.
"Decision" theology
Predestination in initial justification
Double predestination - both to the saved and the damned.
Quietism
Infant baptism
Anti-paedobaptism
Baptism by immersion only
Baptism by sprinkling, pouring or dipping are perfectly okay
Jesus founded the Catholic Church
Satan is real.
Satan is a personification of evil.
The Bible contains 66 books. Or 73. Or 78. Or 82. Which?
The Bible is the Word of God or contains the Word of God or is the words of men about God?
Abortion is a sin
Abortion is okay.
Same sex marriage is a sin
Same sex marriage is okay and should be blessed by the church.
God created the world in 6 24-hour days
God used "the Big Bang" and Evolution and other aspects of science in His creative work.
We are saved by faith + works.
We are saved without works.
God gives faith
We choose faith
Birth Control is sinful.
Catholics worship Mary and thus commit idolatry
In Communion, Christ is physically present
In Communion, Christ is symbolically present
Christmas is a pagan holiday and not to be celebrated.
Pentecostalism.
Baptism is essential for salvation, no salvation without it.
Baptism is only an outward sign of an inward faith
Once saved - always saved.
There are 7 Sacraments.
There are 2 Sacraments.
There are NO Sacraments.

WHAT is going to be force feed to my son by Big Government? Why won't you say? Address all the above... clearly.... each.... just as the Catholic School did. THEN we'll have some idea of WHAT God, WHAT Christianity will be imposed upon our kids by Big Government.

You repeatedly said you'd answer our questions.... I've asked this absolutely necessary one, one that MUST be clear before your question can be answered.... but so far, you've dodged, evaded, hid. You've evaded EVERY SINGLE ONE of these. Obviously, you don't give a rip what is and isn't taught/presented/affirmed as God and Christianity.



.




.

 

[Lees]

@Josiah, concerning your post #(55)

Don't call me 'friend'. You keep using the term 'everyone knows' yet I don't hear that 'everyone knows'. Maybe your bud 'Albion' agrees with you, but then that is just one person. Not everyone. For my part, I don't care what 'everyone' may think they know.

What 'everyone' can do, is read. And they can see the hypocrisy of your position. You don't want God and Christianity in schools, yet you pull your children out of public schools to put them where God and Christianity is represented. You are Lutheran, you say, but are willing to turn your children over to the Roman church to indoctrinate them, to avoid public schools. And you do that because the public schools are a product of your view of 'separation of church and state'. Hypocrisy.

Concerning prayer, again you lie. I specifically said prayer would be to God and Christ. See post #(54) The content of the prayer would be up to the individual praying.

Again, you resort to lying. I have said which God. The God who wrote the Bible. The Christian God, Who is the only God. Why do you keep resorting to lying that I have not said that? I have said Christianity is the only faith to be allowed in public schools. How can I be any plainer?

The 'Bible' is to be recognized as the only Word of God. The schools don't have to determine which version or interpretation. They need only represent that the Bible alone is the Word of God. The various church denominations can wrestle with that. All schools need to know is that the Koran is not the Word of God. No Hindu writings are the Word of God. No Buddhist writings are the Word of God, no Mormon writings are the Word of God, etc. etc. etc. The Bible is the only word of God and is to be represented as such in the schools.

Concerning 'evolution' I have already told you many times. The schools, because they represent Christianity, and God and Christ, reject evolution. Evolution would not be taught. I don't need to make up my mind as I have never said any thing different. Well, if you don't want your son to go to a school where God and Christianity are represented, just keep him in your Roman school. Apparently you are happy with that.

No, the state of California would not be able to present anything it wants about Christianity in public schools. It is your view of 'separation of church and state' that has allowed that. That is what they do now, without God and Christianity in the schools. The first amendment is there to protect the Church from the State. Not to protect the influence of Christianity upon the State. The State would have no authority to dictate doctrine, only to support the schools as Christian.

No, I have said that the schools would represent the one true faith in God, Christianity. They don't need to represent every doctrine within the various churches. They represent God, Christ, Christianity, the Bible, as the one and only true faith.

Ok. You're happy with the Roman Church. You ran to them to avoid the problems you helped create in public schools with Separation of Church and State. Fine. Yet you continue to abandon the rest of the millions of children in public schools with your 'God and Christianity is not to be allowed in the schools'.

No, I have answered your questions. You have not answered mine. Which is, would you rather have God and Christianity back in the schools or leave them in the atheism and chaos as they are now? Your actions and your words contradict your answer.

Lees

 

[Josiah]

@Lees

The State has no authority to dictate doctrine

And there's your problem!!!!!

"Doctrine" is what is regarded as true, what is to be accepted and done. You are right: the State has no right, no authority to determine what religious views, concepts, practices that Americans are to accept and do. The State has no authority to say what God is and is not, what Christianity is and is not - which is a pretty good reason not to demand that the State do so. PARENTS have that right, that authority, that responsibility - directly from God Himself. NOT, NOT the government!

How can the STATE put something "into" the schools if it cannot say WHAT it is putting into the schools - it has no authority to do so. Sure, the State can say the word "God" (and it can say that word now) it just cannot say ANYTHING about that subject, not even what or who or even if "God" is - for the reason you stated, it has no such authority. PARENTS have that according to the Bible - and the schools NOW are AGREEING with the Bible. It's YOUR responsibility... YOU have the authority, it does NOT.

Big Government has no authority to tell my son that his parents are wrong about God and Christianity - and that he must swallow what the STATE tells him about God and Christianity. NO authority, NO permission to tell my son what is and is not the Bible, to tell him what is and is not a valid Baptism, to tell him how Lutherans or Catholics or Freewill Baptists or Calvinist Presbyterians are WRONG about salvation, no authority to impose ITS ideas about God, Christianity and more on MY son - and call it "GOD" and "CHRISTIANITY." Just as YOU said, it CANNOT dictate religious truths.


You are right (finally!) Not only is it IMPOSSIBLE for the State to create some State Religion that most people will accept, but it has NO AUTHORITY to do so. It not only cannot but it may not!

God specifically told PARENTS to do that. God commanded the CHURCH to help. God never gave to the STATE this duty or responsibility or authority.


Think about that. Ponder that, my friend. Right now, currently, public schools are AGREEING with the Bible in saying religion is YOUR responsibility, YOU have that authority, it does not. That's what the Bible says. YOU are the one disagreeing with the Bible. Right now, public schools are AGREEING with you that it has no authority to state anything about religion as true or false, but you want it to do what you state it has not authority to do. They are agreeing with the Bible on whether it or parents have the authority to teach the faith. It's YOU that wants to displace the authority that God specifically gives.

You don't want God and Christianity in public schools, yet you pull your children out of public schools to put them where God and Christianity is represented.

1. I stated why I didn't put my son in a public school. And NOWHERE did I say it was because there God and Christianity are not taught. Indeed, I said that teaching them God and Christianity is MY job, not the governments.

2. My wife taught public school for some years. I know what is and is not done and allowed there in this regard. She took whole classes in this very thing as a part of her credential process. I'm actually quite okay with that - such is as it should be in a nation that holds to freedom of religion and where we do not have a State Mandated Religion. I addressed this in the third paragraph of post #44. I think this is reasonable.

3. I also stated that a parent MAY (if the choose and if it is possible) either homeschool their child or send them to a CHURCH (NOT public) school if they want their formal education to reinforced THEIR views of God and Christianity. THEIR views. Not the State of California. Not yours. Not Joseph Smith's. The PARENTS views. I won't demand the public schools to teach MY views to YOUR kids. And I SURE don't want the Government forcing IT'S religion on my son (especially if it won't tell me what its religion is). I do NOT desire to forfeit MY God-given responsibility to teach MY kids MY faith - and hand that over to Big Government... but it is permissible to ask a CHURCH that essentially agrees with my views to HELP me in this process, to reinforce my faith. My son's school didn't evade all those points I keep asking you about, they clearly and precisely addressed EVERY SINGLE ONE - so I know exactly what God they proclaim, WHAT Christianity they teach. You want Big Government to hide what they present, to not say (which by the way violates parent's rights laws in every state of the USA).

The God who wrote the Bible.

WHAT GOD? You won't say. I've asked you whether this God is the God as proclaimed in Sabellianism or Marcionism or Monarchianism or Modalism or Patripassianism or Psilanthropism or Arianism or Trithism.... or something else. But you won't say. ALL those views were (and often still are, often among American Protestants) taught about God, ALL the proponents of those view insist it's what the Bible teaches, their view is the Biblical view. But they are all very very different Gods. But you won't say if these are right or wrong, you just won't say WHAT God will the State force feed to my son and call "GOD." All we get is evasion, dodging, can't say, who knows.

WHAT Bible? You won't say. If Bibles are going to be public school textbooks, put into the classroom by the State as you want, we need to know WHAT Bible? But you REFUSE (persistently) REFUSE to say. The Coptic Bible? The Syrian Bible? The Greek Orthodox Bible? The post-Trent Catholic Bible? The Anglican/Episcopalian King James Bible of the 39 Articles (the original of 1611) or a later one? Luther's Bible? WHICH? You REFUSE to say. No matter which you choose, a LOT of parents are going to disagree - it won't be THEIR Bible. Again, I think you assume that every state will ask YOU - just you, little 'ole YOU along, YOU will be asked which Bible - and they'll all bow before you as the great and final authority on the issue and all US parent have to agree with YOU.

I have said Christianity is the only faith to be allowed in public schools.

There goes freedom of religion... there goes the very reason why a lot of people came to America (including those who founded my denomination, the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod). So not only are parental rights thrown out the window, so is the freedom of religion.

And you REFUSE to say WHICH Christianity! As affirmed by WHO? You? Just you - and who gives a rip about the other 400 million Americans? Is it Coptic Christianity? Orthodox Christianity? Catholic Christianity? Free Will Baptist? Reformed Baptist? LCMS Lutheran? ELCA Lutheran? Conservative Anglicanism or liberal Episcopalianism? Pentecostal? Oneness? Unitarian? Universalist? Orthodox Presbyterian? You REFUSE to say. No matter which you pick, the vast majority of Americans will disagree with you. Again, I think you just assume that all 400 millon Americans, in all 50 states, will look to YOU and ask YOU what YOU mean by "Christian" and just put THAT into the schools.

The 'Bible' is to be recognized as the only Word of God.

Which Bible? You won't say. You refuse to say. As you of course know, there has NEVER in the 2000 years of Christianity been ONE Bible, a Bible with the same content, there are many DIFFERENT Christian Bibles. Which one do you mean? You persistenly refuse to say.

What does "Word of God" mean? You won't say. You said "nothing needs to be taught about this."

The schools don't have to determine which version

Then which translation does it put into the classrooms, as you insist it does? Perhaps you want all the Bibles to be in the original Hebrew and Greek - no translations. But you have a problem: there is no universal Christian concept of what the original Hebrew and Greek words were.



.

 

[Lees]

@Josiah, concerning post #(57).

No, I have no problem. The State doesn't teach doctrine. Neither are the schools required to teach doctrine. The schools simply hold to the Christian faith and represent that faith. And the State supports that. The various denominations of the Christian churches teach the doctrine. The public schools of America reflect the Christian faith. Quite simple.

Because the American schools would be Christian, they have the authority to reject anything not Christian. As I said, Islam is rejected. Hinduism is rejected. etc. etc.

As I have already said, God never said one way or the other about public schools. He did expect man to subdue the earth, but with God included. (Gen. 1:28) Do you think God wants man to learn without Him? Another question you will refuse to answer.

PARENTS should teach their children about God. Which means PARENTS should also make sure the public schools are not anti-God as they are today.

No. Public schools today are agreeing with you, that God and Christianity should not be in the public schools. That way atheism flourishes. That way they can teach the anti-God science of evolution. And they can promote and teach immorality without any resistance...because after all...Separation of Church and State...they and 'you' say.

You don't want God and Christianity in the public schools. Yet you pull your children out of the schools and place them in a school where God and Christ are represented. And now you say you didn't do it because God and Christ are not in the public schools. Which begs the questions, so, were you happy about the evolution taught in public schools that denies God? Were you happy about the alphabetical perversions being taught in public schools. (LGBT) Were you happy about the anti-God teaching that is allowed in the schools? None of these things affected your decision? Go ahead, lie to me.

I have told you what God and Bible is to be represented in the schools. The Christian God, as revealed in the Bible. As to the various translations or interpretations, of the Bible, that is left to the churches . The schools need to recognize only that the Bible is the Word of God, and only Word of God.

Your 'freedom of religion' is just as perverted as your 'separation of church and state'. 'Freedom of Religion' spoke to the exercise of the Christian religion. It did not speak to the removal of Christianity from public government or schools. Which is what you are supporting.

Public schools don't need a class room to teach doctrine. They simply represent the Christian faith. They don't need to address 'which' Bible. They simply state that they are Christian and the Bible is the Word of God.

So, let me ask you: (1.) Do you approve of evolution being taught in public schools? (2.) Do you approve of atheism being taught in public schools? (3.) Do you approve of immorality being taught in the public schools? (LGBT)

Lees

 

[Josiah]

The State doesn't teach doctrine. Neither are the schools required to teach doctrine.

@Lees


That's right, now the State does NOT teach religious doctrine. As you pointed out, it has no authority to do so (a point public schools agree with). The authority to teach religious doctrine belongs to parents - just as the Bible specifically states and as public schools affirm as true. But you want the change all that.

You want public schools to have the full, unmitigated authority to teach my son religion... you want public schools to take on this role, the role specifically given by God to parents, not government. You want to reject what the Bible says regarding the teaching of religion and give it to the Government.

The various denominations of the Christian churches teach the doctrine. The public schools of America reflect the Christian faith. Quite simple.Ab

Right again, the CHURCH is to teach about God and Christianity. NOT the government.


@Lees IF the State can't say what is true (doctrine) and what is false (heresy) about religion, then WHAT is it going to teach about religion? And if it CAN (must!) teach what is true (doctrine) and false (heresy) about religion, why do you persistently, stubbornly REFUSE to say exactly WHAT it will teach as true and false?

Obviously it's IMPOSSIBLE to "reflect" and "present" God and Christianity while saying nothing about about either - being void on the issue of what's truth and false in religion. A point you persistently dodge. You want public schools to STATE, TEACH that Christianity is true - that's doctrine, that's stating what is TRUE and stating what is FALSE (that's heresy), you want the Government to be the Church, teaching/presenting/representing what is TRUE and FALSE. Religious doctrine and heresy.

BUT you REFUSE to say WHAT these government schools would present and teach as doctrine (truth) and heresy (error) - you want to keep that a big, dark secret or to give each public school a free hand to force feed my son WHATEVER, WHATEVER it wants as long as it calls it "Christianity." You don't want public schools to teach the science theory of evolution (even though at least 75% of Protestants in the US believe that it's true) but you don't give rip if it teaches or condemns Docetism, adoptionism, universalism, sabellianism, marcionism, monarchianism, modalism, psilanthropism, arianism, tritheism, subordinationism, pelagianism or semi-pelagianism ... and many, many other other things - ALL views found in American churches, ALL presented as Christian and biblical, all very present in Christianity and American Protestantism. You don't care if salvation is by grace or works, if Jesus is the Savior or rather makes salvation possible to those who choose to accept it by faith, predestination in justification or double predestination.... you won't say if the public school would say any of these is true or false... you don't give a rip what it teaches as true and false about God or Christ or Salvation - just a science view of evolution.

So... a teacher begins the religion class. "Hello students, lets.......... I can't say anything...... Class is over." That's what you want, a void, empty nothingness big Government CALLS "God" and "Christianity." You want the Government to tell my son that's what God and Christianity are.... nothing. It won't teach/present what is true or false, it won't say anything about God or Christ or Salvation or anything religious because it can't teach truth or error, it just evade all doctrine and heresy and say nothing - and insists THAT'S the real God, the real Christianity . So, the teacher can't say anything. But you also insist it DOES teach what the State thinks is true and false - you just don't give a rip WHAT a state teaches kids is right and wrong.

You present an impossible situation, where the STATE force feeds my son what is true and false about religion, but you won't allow the schools to say what is true or false. It must teach but can't teach. IF it is to teach, then you need to say WHAT. But that's the curious thing, you don't seem to care and you REFUSE to say. The only possibility is that you assume every public school will look to YOU - just you, little 'ole YOU, and it will teach what YOU think, YOUR view of God and Christianity (but you won't say what that is). I'm fine with YOU teaching YOUR child YOUR faith - just leave my kid alone. I do not want public schools to teach MY religion to your sons..... why do you insist on teaching YOUR religion to my son?

Because the American schools would be Christian, they have the authority to reject anything not Christian.

So, you want government owned and operated schools would be the State Church - teaching what is true (doctrine) and rejecting what is false (heresy): It (Government) will determine what is right and wrong in religion, what is taught/presented as true and false (doctrine and heresy). Not you. Not the church. This will be force fed to my son by Big Government. And if it conflicts with his parents' faith... if it means the school tells my son that his parents are wrong about God and Christianity, the church he attends is wrong - well, so be it cuz the State knows best.


You insist the Government become the State Church and it must teach kids if their parent's views of God and Christianity are true or false. You want IT to teach what is correct and wrong about God but you don't give a rip WHAT it teaches is right or wrong about God You insist the State teach what is and isn't Christian but you don't care WHAT it says is right or wrong about Christianity. You think the Bible should be presented but refuse to say WHICH Christian Bible, out of the dozens that exist - all different than the others, all unique (I'm not talk about translations or interpretation, I'm talking books and words - there are dozens of DIFFERENT Christian Bibles, at least 4 different ones found in US Protestantism, but you won't say WHICH Bible.

PARENTS should teach their children about God.

That's right. The Government is not the parent of anyone.

So, if public schools can't say anything about God and Christianity, what pray tell is it going to say about God and Christianity? If it says "it (whatever it is - doesn't matter) is true" then that's saying something. And you insist it can't teach religion - parents are to do that (which is, of course, exactly what God said).

Lees said: The State has no authority to dictate doctrine

That's right! And there's your problem!

"Doctrine" is what is regarded as true, what is to be accepted and done. You are right: the State has no right, no authority to determine what religious views, concepts, practices that Americans are to accept and do. The State has no authority to say what God is and is not, what Christianity is and is not - which is a pretty good reason not to demand that the State do so. PARENTS have that right, that authority, that responsibility - directly from God Himself. NOT, NOT the government!

How can the STATE put something "into" the schools if it cannot say WHAT it is putting into the schools - it has no authority to do so.???? Sure, the State can say the word "God" (and it can say that word now) it just cannot say ANYTHING about that subject, not even what or who or even if "God" is - for the reason you stated, it has no such authority. PARENTS have that according to the Bible - and the schools NOW are AGREEING with the Bible. It's YOUR responsibility... YOU have the authority, it does NOT.

Big Government has no authority to tell my son that his parents are wrong about God and Christianity - and that he must swallow what the STATE tells him about God and Christianity. NO authority, NO permission to tell my son what is and is not the Bible, to tell him what is and is not a valid Baptism, to tell him how Lutherans or Catholics or Freewill Baptists or Calvinist Presbyterians are WRONG about salvation, no authority to impose ITS ideas about God, Christianity and more on MY son - and call it "GOD" and "CHRISTIANITY." Just as YOU said, it CANNOT dictate religious truths.


You are right (finally!) Not only is it IMPOSSIBLE for the State to create some State Religion that most people will accept, but it has NO AUTHORITY to do so. It not only cannot but it may not!

God specifically told PARENTS to do that. God commanded the CHURCH to help. God never gave to the STATE this duty or responsibility or authority.


Think about that. Right now, currently, public schools are AGREEING with the Bible in saying religion is YOUR responsibility, YOU have that authority, it does not. That's what the Bible says. YOU are the one disagreeing with the Bible. Right now, public schools are AGREEING with you that it has no authority to state anything about religion as true or false, but you want it to do what you state it has not authority to do. They are agreeing with the Bible on whether it or parents have the authority to teach the faith. It's YOU that wants to displace the authority that God specifically gives.




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[Lees]

@Josiah concerning your post #(59)

Yes, now the schools teach anti-God and anti-christian doctrine, because of your view of 'separation of church and state'. Which causes you to run to the Roman church for safety. No, I want the schools to have full authority to be Christian. To represent Christianity. As I have repeatedly said, the schools don't need to teach doctrine. That is left to the churches. Why do you not fear your children being 'forced' into Roman Catholicism...you a Lutheran...you say?

In your second quote of mine, why is there an Ab after 'Quite simple'? That's not from me? Are you changing things in my posts?

I have said many times already, the churches teach the doctrine. But the schools are to represent Christianity and only Christianity. As I said, quite simple really. Again, you keep using the word 'teaching' when I tell you the schools don't teach doctrine. In other words you are arguing against yourself as I am not saying that. Of course that makes your argument easier for you, but you need to pay attention to what I am saying.

No, I have repeatedly said what the schools represent in Christianity.

No, there doesn't need to be any 'religious classes'. The schools simply represent Christianity only. Thus your claim about 'force feeding' your son is a continual lie. All the while you 'are' willing to force feed him Roman Catholicism. Oh Lutheran PARENT.

No, the schools are not a State Church. The Schools represent Christianity. The State should support the schools in that representation. In other words, nothing of Islam allowed. Nothing of Buddhism allowed, etc, etc. Only the Christian faith is represented. But the State does not develop any doctrine to teach.

I have already explained your Bible protest several times. The schools recognize the Bible as the Word of God. It is that which reveals the only true God, which Christianity embraces. As to which interpretation or translation of the Bible, it is left to the churches.

Oh cherry picker. My full quote for context is yes Parents should teach their children about God, but parents should also make sure the schools don't teach anti-God or anti-Christian things. As I have said, PARENTS responsibility about teaching their children about God, doesn't stop at home. It involves both schools and government. I guess you're going to tell me Christians should not be concerned over their faith when voting. Are you? Go ahead...lie to me.


Oh cherry picker. You not only cherry pick from my previous post, leaving out the context, but you now must go to earlier posts instead of addressing all I said in the previous post. My last post, which you should be addressing, was #(58). Yet you now go to post #(56) to find some cherry to pick. And even then you distort what I said.

What I said in #(56) is "The state would have no authority to dictate doctrine, only to support the schools as Christian". See? You present only half of what I said for your support. But you present only half. Presenting 'half truths' is just another way of lying. (Matt. 4:6) compared to (Ps. 91:11-12) Why do you feel you must be so deceptive?

Why do you state " I am right finally". I never said what you say I have said. Do you resort now to lying to yourself?

Why are you afraid to answer my questions? (1.) Do you approve of evolution being taught in public schools? (2.) Do you approve of atheism being taught in public schools? (3.) Do you approve of immorality being taught in public schools? ( 4.) Would you rather have God and Christianity back in public schools, or rather leave them in their atheism and immorality and chaos. (5) Why do you , a supposed Lutheran, not fear your children being forced into Roman Catholic teaching?

Lees