Keep Religion OUT of Public Schools!

[Lees]

Of course, I consider the Catholic Church and Catholic Schools to have God and Christianity. I realize, not everyone agrees with that, there are those who think that The Catholic Church is anti-God and anti-Christianity. I don't agree with that. Nor does this website. I'd rather my child went to a school of the LCMS (my denomination) but none exists in my areas, and I regard this school of the Catholic Church to be close enough, acceptable to me. YES, there will be areas of disagreement but they wont' be many and I can discuss those with my child.

BUT it is MY CHOICE as the parent of MY CHILDREN - and I'M the one charged directly by God Himself for the religious education of my children, me, exclusively - no one else, not the government, not some school board, not you, not any other parent, not some governor, not some president, not some political party, not Planned Parenthood or some LGBGTQ+ organization. ME (and my wife). God specifically gives this responsibility and authority to parents - the child's parents (especially their father).




Catholic schools are not public schools. Catholic schools are not owned and operated and controlled by the State. I said the religion of the secular state should not be imposed upon the children in public schools, parents should not ignore their God-given responsibility to teach their faith to their children and hand it over to the secular state.

YES.... IF I lived in a state where 100% of the population were active members of The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, and the secular state had The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod do all the teaching of religion in all its public schools, all instruction in complete conformity with the doctrines, practices and morality of The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, then I'd be fine sending them to a public school. Heck, if the Catholic Church was so empowered and authorized, even perhaps a very conservative/traditional form of the Anglican Church - well, I'd accept that, too. But then we'd need to live in a state of the USA where 100% of the parents are active members of the LCMS or RCC or Anglican Church. And no such state exists. I suspect the only one of the 50 US States were a (very slight) majority of people are of one faith would be Utah and Mormonism - but I'm not sure about that anymore. Vermont MAY have a majority of Atheists, but not everyone considers that a religion. Lee, I don't want conservative/traditional Lutheranism FORCED on all kids by the State either. I want PARENTS to teach them. Just as GOD does (indeed, God COMMANDS this). And if THEY choose (and frankly can afford it), THEY might employ a CHRISTIAN school of their faith (or close enough for them) to HELP them teach it, that's fine with me. But that's not the STATE forcing ITS "religion" on them.





So, AGAIN, what are parents to do until the day when 100% of the people in the USA are active members of your church, teaching YOUR views?

And AGAIN, if California is going to teach religion to all students, WHICH religion is it going to force upon our children? Hinduism? Catholicism? Mormonism? Free Will Baptist? Judaism? Liberal Methodist? LCMS Lutheran? ELCA Lutheran? Muslim? Conservative Anglican or Liberal Episcopalianism? Atheism? Agnosticism? Will it teach Pelagianism? Universalism? Modalism? Arianism? That only men can be pastors? That Baptism must only be to adults and by full immersion? Do you ASSUME that all 50 states would teach YOUR religious views? Or at least something acceptable to YOU?

Again, your actions and belief that God and religion should be kept out of schools oppose one another. You say it is you, and you alone that teach your children about God. Yet you are forced to remove your kids from public schools because of all the garbage in them, and move them into a Catholic school that recognizes and teaches God, Christ, and the Bible, though it does not reflect all of your Lutheran faith.

In other words, your view, which is shared by the nation, has created this/your problem. But you maintain this cancerous view, 'separation of church and state', that God and Christian religion should be kept out of public schools.

Again, read post #(5), as well as #(14). Having God and religion represented in public schools doesn't mean they have to teach 'doctrine'. But they openly represent the Christian view of God as found in the Bible. And they don't allow the world's atheism to be taught. They reflect the Christian faith that God is revealed in the Bible. None of which means you as a parent don't teach your children about God.

Well, in your view, atheism is forced upon children in the public schools. As is the acceptance of the alphabetical perversions. LGBTQ, whatever. Yet you keep asking what shall we do in the meantime. Until your and others view of 'separation of church and state' is done away with, there is nothing you can do. You have created this problem and now are forced to do whatever you can.

And, you and others who hold this view are responsible for the untold millions of children being forced to have atheism and immorality taught them in public schools. And having to endure the violence and bullying in public schools.

My opinion.

Lees

 

[Josiah]

@Lees

Having God and religion represented in public schools doesn't mean they have to teach 'doctrine'.

How are schools to teach religion without teaching what that religion teaches? How is the teacher to teach about that religion if she can't teach about what the religion teaches/holds/believes?

You want religion - but refuse to indicate WHOSE religion public schools must teach; I strongly suspect you mean YOUR religion, YOUR views, YOUR doctrine, as professed by YOUR church. Or at least what is acceptable to YOU, little 'ole you. Why you? Why not me? Or those of the nice Mormon family next door to me?

Yet you keep asking what shall we do in the meantime.

And you completely dodge that question, too.

Meanwhile.... while the 400,000,000 Americans are waiting for 100% of us to become members of your denomination in full complete agreement with the teachings of YOUR church and religion, what are we to do with religion and our public, state owned and operated schools? You won't say.

You won't say WHAT religion is to be forced upon all our children in state operated, funded, controlled schools. Yours? You won't say WHAT teachings are to be forced upon all American children .... even if 100% of Americans are suddenly Christians? Will these schools teach universalism? Sabellianism? Monarchianism? Modalism? Psilanyhropism? Arianisim? Pelagianism? ALL of those were and are taught by many Christians and they insist is what the Christian Bible teaches. Will it teach that Baptism is only for those over the age of 10 and must be by immersion or that infant baptism by sprinkling is okay? Will it teach that God founded the Catholic Church as about half of Christians believe He did and that the Bible so indicates? Will it teach Real Presence or Symbolic presence in Communion; American Christians are very split on that? Will it each that abortion and same-sex marriage are okay according to the Bible as some Christians and some Christians churches insist or the opposite? WHAT will be taught about all these things - and hundreds of other issues? Even IF suddenly 100% of Americans suddenly became Christians? Why do you persistently dodge this question?

You have created this problem and now are forced to do whatever you can.

When you convert all Americans to YOUR view of God, YOUR religion, YOUR doctrine and morality - 100% of parents and tax payers agree with YOU - then that situation will change. But what are we to do until you accomplish that? You won't say. Why?

No, I did not create the situation where not 100% of the population of the USA is an active member of The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod anymore than YOU created the situation where not all are members of your church. There has NEVER been a time in US history when 100% of the people belonged to one denomination or held one view of religion.... Something approaching that exists in many Muslim countries but never in the USA. Something close to that ONCE, long ago, existed in some Christian countries such as Greece, Spain, Denmark but that hasn't been true for a many years and that's never been in the case here. Indeed, part of our US history is people coming HERE to AVOID state mandated religion - including my denomination, the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod. Many came here to enjoy freedom of religion in stead of state mandated religion. It's a big part of our history, our identity as Americans.



.

 

[Lees]

Again, as everyone but you knows, I never remotely stated that God and religion should be kept out of schools. I said it should kept out of PUBLIC secular, state own and operated schools. I never said such should be kept out of RELIGIOUS, church owned and operated schools.





So, a public school teaches Hinduism. A religion. Now, how is this school going to teach religion without teaching the doctrine and beliefs of the religion it teaches?

You want religion - but refuse to indicate WHOSE religion it must teach; I strongly suspect you mean YOUR religion, YOUR views, YOUR doctrine, as professed by YOUR church. Why you? Why not me? Or those of the nice Mormon family next door to me?





And you completely dodge that question, too.

Meanwhile.... while the 350,000,000 Americans are waiting for 100% of us to become members of your denomination in full complete agreement with the teachings of YOUR church and religion, what are we to do with religion and our public, state owned and operated schools? You won't say.

You won't say WHAT religion is to be forced upon all our children in state operated, funded, controlled schools. Yours? You won't say WHAT teachings are to be forced upon them all.... even if

Public schools are what I have been talking about because that is what you are talking about. You say God and religion should be kept out of public schools. That is known as 'separation of church and state'. I am saying you're wrong and your actions prove you're wrong. You don't send your kids to public schools because they are full of garbage. Well, they are full of garbage because God and religion have been taken out. They have gone to hell because people like you believe in 'separation of church and state'. When you support 'separation of church and state' you're supporting taking the Christian faith out of schools in America.

No. You need to pay attention to what I have said. I have repeatedly said that allowing God and religion in schools doesn't mean they need to teach doctrine. It does mean the school reflects the Christian faith. And they don't allow atheism or evolution or immorality to be taught in the schools. And they can have prayer before each school day, devotions, prayer before sports events, etc. etc. And they are free to have the Ten Commandments hanging on a hall wall if they like. And if students want to have a Bible study in their free time, they are free to do so.

America is not based upon Hindu or Islam. It is based upon Christianity. Neither Hinduism or Islam should be allowed in the school, or any other false religion. I have repeatedly said it is the Christian faith I am talking about as it is the Christian faith America is built on. Thus I am saying a public school doesn't have to teach a Baptist or Lutheran or Presbyterian doctrine. But it represents the Christian faith, as I just described.

No, I haven't dodged your questions of what to do in the meantime. Because of your view public schools have gone to hell. Your own view forces you to a church school, not of your preference, to avoid the public schools. And now you want to know what to do in the meantime? You do whatever you can to place your children in a safe God fearing environment. But you do it knowing your view of 'separation of church and state' has caused this problem. Until that is done away with, nothing will ever change.

Strange...you would rather see the public schools remain in the chaos that they are in, rather then put God and religion, the Christian faith, back in the schools. You won't change your view of 'separation of church and state', yet you continue to whine about what to do now. I'm inclined to believe you would rather have schools in the shape they are in then letting God back in the schools.

Lees

 

[Albion]

Lees,

Yours is indeed a strange view of the matter, but the most peculiar element--leaving aside whether Josiah wants religion in public schools or not--is not being able to acknowledge that an extreme and ultraliberal "separation of church and state" is what every American parent is dealing with. Whether or not you think posting the Ten Commandments in schools, coaches and players praying before sports events, and so on is permissible, courts have repeated struck down such mild concessions to religion. That's the state of affairs now.

Then too, jittery school boards have repeatedly caved in the face of threatened lawsuits brought by atheists or members of other religions who have demanded either the removal of any hint of the historic Christian nature of our country or argued that there has to be equal treatment.

So, whatever would seem reasonable doesn't matter. The state of the public schools with regard to this matter is anti-religion, especially if the religion is Christianity.

And that's to say nothing about the leftist orientation of school administrators and teachers, quite apart from what the law might allow. The students in public schools today, with few exceptions, are going to be taught a materialistic view of life.

Consequently, for a parent to send his child to a parochial school instead, even a Roman Catholic one that mentions the Pope or seven sacraments, may indeed be preferable. The parent can correct such things for their child.

As I mentioned several times earlier, most of what goes down in Catholic schools these days is not at all what it was fifty years ago anyhow, and is mainly a diet of God is the Creator, Jesus loves and saved us, be charitable and just towards one's neighbor with special attention to the poor, and then heaven awaits, etc.

 

[Josiah]

I have repeatedly said that allowing God and religion in schools doesn't mean they need to teach doctrine.

How can schools teach religion without teaching what the religion teaches?

If you insist public schools should not teach religion, then how can they teach religion?

If the schools cannot teach that Jesus is the Savior or that Jesus is God and Man or that Jesus was sinless... if they cannot teach that God created everything from nothing, they cannot teach that God is holy, that God commands holiness from God... if they cannot teach Baptism or Communion....if they cannot teach that we are saved by Jesus' works and not our own works, then what EXACTLY are they to teach?


WHICH Christianity? Why won't you say? And even if you limit freedom of religion to exclusively Christianity - free only to believe in one religion, then WHICH Christian form? Oriental Orthodox? Eastern Orthodox? Roman Catholicism? Anglicanism (and if so, which aspect of it)? Lutheranism (and if so, which aspect of it)? Freewill Baptists? Reformed Baptist? Mormonism? Pentecostalism? Universalism? Restorationism? Will these schools teach universalism? Sabellianism? Monarchianism? Modalism? Psilanyhropism? Arianisim? Pelagianism? ALL of those were and are taught by many Christians and they insist is what the Christian Bible teaches. Will public schools teach that Baptism is only for those over the age of 10 and must be by immersion or that infant baptism by sprinkling is okay? Will they teach that God founded the Catholic Church as about half of all Christians believe He did and that the Bible so indicates? Will it teach Real Presence or Symbolic presence in Communion; American Christians are very split on that? Will it each that abortion and same-sex marriage are okay according to the Bible as some Christians and some Christians churches insist or the opposite? WHICH Christianity will be forced on our kids by the State?


Your concept that "well, public schools should teach Christianity but nothing about Christianity" "It must teach Christianity without teaching anything about Christianity" is absurd and frankly, a cop-out, a pure dodge. In the USA, there is NOT one form of Christianity, not one Christianity. You might have suggested the Nicene Creed... perhaps the most ecumenical and historic attempt that defining Christianity - but it is not accepted by most Christian denominations in the US today and is "interpreted" in many different ways in contemporary American Christianity, it is FAR from a commonly accepted summery of Christianity - certainly not in the US, not even among Christians (much less the whole population). Things MANY American Christians hold as evil and heretical (and declared so in ecumenical councils) are taught as correct, godly, biblical views by other American Christians... including on basics such as God, Jesus, the Bible, salvation, and more. And that's among CHRISTIANS. What about the GREAT many Americans who aren't Christians?

I am talking about as it is the Christian faith

WHICH Christian faith? Why do you refuse to say?

Oriental Orthodox? Eastern Orthodox? Roman Catholicism? Anglicanism (and if so, which aspect of it)? Lutheranism (and if so, which aspect of it)? Freewill Baptists? Reformed Baptist? Mormonism? Pentecostalism? Universalism? Restorationism? Will these schools teach universalism? Sabellianism? Monarchianism? Modalism? Psilanyhropism? Arianisim? Pelagianism? ALL of those were and are taught by many Christians, many Christian churches - and they insist is what the Christian Bible teaches. Will public schools teach that Baptism is only for those over the age of 10 and must be by immersion or that infant baptism by sprinkling is okay? Will it teach that God founded the Catholic Church as about half of Christians believe He did and that the Bible so indicates? Will it teach Real Presence or Symbolic presence in Communion; American Christians are very split on that. Will it each that abortion and same-sex marriage are okay according to the Bible as some Christians and some Christians churches insist or will it be the opposite as some Christians and churches hold? Will it teach the Bible is inerrant or that only it's theology is so or that none of it is inerrant? Churches and Christians are strongly divided on that. That the world was created in 6 24-hour days as some Christians believe or not as some Christians believe? WHICH will be taught? Again, I suspect you mean YOUR form of Christianity - or at least what YOU (little 'ole, just YOU, YOUR yourself) feel is acceptable. Why YOU? Why not me or my Catholic friend or the Mormon next door or the Universalist who works with me?

I've read some insisting that at least Bibles should be placed in every public classroom... but refusing to say WHICH Christian Bible? The Coptic Orthodox Christian Bible? The Greek Orthodox Christian Bible? The post Trent Catholic Christian Bible? The 1611 KJV Christian Bible? The modern KJV Bible? Luther's Bible? The Westminister Confession Christian Bible? WHICH? They are all Christian Bibles and all different. So even THAT seemingly benign move ain't as easy as it seems.



.

 

[Lees]

Lees,

Yours is indeed a strange view of the matter, but the most peculiar element--leaving aside whether Josiah wants religion in public schools or not--is not being able to acknowledge that an extreme and ultraliberal "separation of church and state" is what every American parent is dealing with. Whether or not you think posting the Ten Commandments in schools, coaches and players praying before sports events, and so on is permissible, courts have repeated struck down such mild concessions to religion. That's the state of affairs now.

Then too, jittery school boards have repeatedly caved in the face of threatened lawsuits brought by atheists or members of other religions who have demanded either the removal of any hint of the historic Christian nature of our country or argued that there has to be equal treatment.

So, whatever would seem reasonable doesn't matter. The state of the public schools with regard to this matter is anti-religion, especially if the religion is Christianity.

And that's to say nothing about the leftist orientation of school administrators and teachers, quite apart from what the law might allow. The students in public schools today, with few exceptions, are going to be taught a materialistic view of life.

Consequently, for a parent to send his child to a parochial school instead, even a Roman Catholic one that mentions the Pope or seven sacraments, may indeed be preferable. The parent can correct such things for their child.

As I mentioned several times earlier, most of what goes down in Catholic schools these days is not at all what it was fifty years ago anyhow, and is mainly a diet of God is the Creator, Jesus loves and saved us, be charitable and just towards one's neighbor with special attention to the poor, and then heaven awaits, etc.

If my view is strange to you, then you are part of the problem, as Josiah is.

The 'state of affairs now', as you describe, are the result of those who hold the view of 'separation of church and state'. The courts today base their rulings on this false law of 'separation of church and state'. Not on the First Amendment.

If 'reasonable doesn't matter' then just forget it.

Yes students in Americas public schools today will be taught an atheistic, immoral, and evolutionary way of life. Thanks to all who support 'separation of church and state'.

So, I ask you, would you rather have God and religion, Christianity, in public schools, or leave them in the chaos they are in now?

Lees

 

[Lees]

How can schools teach religion without teaching what the religion teaches?

If you insist public schools should not teach religion, then how can they teach religion?

If the schools cannot teach that Jesus is the Savior or that Jesus is God and Man or that Jesus was sinless... if they cannot teach that God created everything from nothing, they cannot teach that God is holy, that God commands holiness from God... if they cannot teach Baptism or Communion....if they cannot teach that we are saved by Jesus' works and not our own works, then what EXACTLY are they to teach?


WHICH Christianity? Why won't you say? And even if you limit freedom of religion to exclusively Christianity - free only to believe in one religion, then WHICH Christian form? Oriental Orthodox? Eastern Orthodox? Roman Catholicism? Anglicanism (and if so, which aspect of it)? Lutheranism (and if so, which aspect of it)? Freewill Baptists? Reformed Baptist? Mormonism? Pentecostalism? Universalism? Restorationism? Will these schools teach universalism? Sabellianism? Monarchianism? Modalism? Psilanyhropism? Arianisim? Pelagianism? ALL of those were and are taught by many Christians and they insist is what the Christian Bible teaches. Will public schools teach that Baptism is only for those over the age of 10 and must be by immersion or that infant baptism by sprinkling is okay? Will they teach that God founded the Catholic Church as about half of all Christians believe He did and that the Bible so indicates? Will it teach Real Presence or Symbolic presence in Communion; American Christians are very split on that? Will it each that abortion and same-sex marriage are okay according to the Bible as some Christians and some Christians churches insist or the opposite? WHICH Christianity will be forced on our kids by the State?


Your concept that "well, public schools should teach Christianity but nothing about Christianity" "It must teach Christianity without teaching anything about Christianity" is absurd and frankly, a cop-out, a pure dodge. In the USA, there is NOT one form of Christianity, not one Christianity. You might have suggested the Nicene Creed... perhaps the most ecumenical and historic attempt that defining Christianity - but it is not accepted by most Christian denominations in the US today and is "interpreted" in many different ways in contemporary American Christianity, it is FAR from a commonly accepted summery of Christianity - certainly not in the US, not even among Christians (much less the whole population). Things MANY American Christians hold as evil and heretical (and declared so in ecumenical councils) are taught as correct, godly, biblical views by other American Christians... including on basics such as God, Jesus, the Bible, salvation, and more. And that's among CHRISTIANS. What about the GREAT many Americans who aren't Christians?






WHICH Christian faith? Why do you refuse to say?

Oriental Orthodox? Eastern Orthodox? Roman Catholicism? Anglicanism (and if so, which aspect of it)? Lutheranism (and if so, which aspect of it)? Freewill Baptists? Reformed Baptist? Mormonism? Pentecostalism? Universalism? Restorationism? Will these schools teach universalism? Sabellianism? Monarchianism? Modalism? Psilanyhropism? Arianisim? Pelagianism? ALL of those were and are taught by many Christians, many Christian churches - and they insist is what the Christian Bible teaches. Will public schools teach that Baptism is only for those over the age of 10 and must be by immersion or that infant baptism by sprinkling is okay? Will it teach that God founded the Catholic Church as about half of Christians believe He did and that the Bible so indicates? Will it teach Real Presence or Symbolic presence in Communion; American Christians are very split on that. Will it each that abortion and same-sex marriage are okay according to the Bible as some Christians and some Christians churches insist or will it be the opposite as some Christians and churches hold? Will it teach the Bible is inerrant or that only it's theology is so or that none of it is inerrant? Churches and Christians are strongly divided on that. That the world was created in 6 24-hour days as some Christians believe or not as some Christians believe? WHICH will be taught? Again, I suspect you mean YOUR form of Christianity - or at least what YOU (little 'ole, just YOU, YOUR yourself) feel is acceptable. Why YOU? Why not me or my Catholic friend or the Mormon next door or the Universalist who works with me?

I've read some insisting that at least Bibles should be placed in every public classroom... but refusing to say WHICH Christian Bible? The Coptic Orthodox Christian Bible? The Greek Orthodox Christian Bible? The post Trent Catholic Christian Bible? The 1611 KJV Christian Bible? The modern KJV Bible? Luther's Bible? The Westminister Confession Christian Bible? WHICH? They are all Christian Bibles and all different. So even THAT seemingly benign move ain't as easy as it seems.

I have not said that the public schools should teach any doctrine. In America they should represent the Christian faith. And only the Christian faith.

I have explained already that no particular doctrine need be taught in public schools in order to allow God and Christianity back in the schools. And I have explained how. Yet you want to insist that a particular doctrine must be taught of a certain denomination. Why? Because you would rather see the chaos in the public school system that we have rather then have Christianity back in the school system. What other conclusion can one come to?

You want to bring up any and every disagreements Christians may have over doctrine and the Bible and denominations, as a reason to remove Christianity from public schools. Which is what 'separation of church and state' does. And that is not necessary as I have repeatedly explained.

So, my question to you is, would you rather keep the chaos in the public schools, or would you rather bring back Christianity and God into the public schools?

Thus far, I am convinced that you would rather leave the school system as it is, in atheism and immorality, then have Christianity and God back in the schools. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Lees

 

[Josiah]

I have not said that the public schools should teach any doctrine.

It seems absurd (and clearly ENTIRELY unworkable) to insist that public schools FORCE a teaching upon all students without actually teaching them anything. You seem to embrace a "faith" with ZERO content, a faith in NOTHING, a teaching of nothing. Thus, your way to dodge the obvious practical issue here: WHAT religion will be taught? You want a religion to be taught that teachings NOTHING.

no particular doctrine need be taught in public schools

If nothing is taught, then how can it be that Christianity is being taught?

Do you hold that Christianity believes nothing? That faith is just faith in NOTHING? How is it going to be explained to our children how Christianity is not Hinduism if nothing is taught about either? Cop out. Pure and simple.

You want to force some form of Christianity to be taught by public schools - but one that teaches nothing about God, the Bible, Jesus, salvation, sin, Baptism, Communion and pretty much everything else... since Christians don't agree on those topics. Okay, I see. A "Christianity" stripped of everything Christians believe, teach and confess. THIS your "answer" to WHICH Christianity will be taught - NONE of them, NOTHING will be taught. Teaching kids that Christianity doesn't believe anything, doesn't have a morality. Faith in.... nothing. THIS the big improvement you hope for. This is your answer to WHAT will be taught: Nothing. How can Christianity be taught if nothing Christian is taught?

You want to bring up any and every disagreements Christians may have over doctrine and the Bible and denominations

I've simply asked WHAT are you suggesting the US Government teach our kids about Christianity. Your answer: Nothing.

Well, that's your response to whether it will teach what the Coptic Orthodox Christians believe Christianity is.... or Oriental Orthodox... or Eastern Orthodox... or contemporary Roman Catholics.... or conservative Lutherans or liberal Lutherans .... or conservative or liberal Anglicans....or Freewill or Reformed Baptists... or Unitarians.... or Mormons.... or 40,000 other Christian denominations in the US. WHICH Christianity? Well, your view: NONE of them because NOTHING will be taught. We won't teach that the Bible is... anything. We won't teach that Jesus is... anything. We'll teach religion but we'll teach nothing. That jsut seems absurd to me. It's just your way to try to avoid the obvious problem with your idea of a forced, State religion, a State Church (one you insist should teach and believe NOTHING).

IMO, a State Religion that believes in NOTHING, that teaches NOTHING, is not Christianity. And seems pretty much the same thing as keeping the State out of the issue of religion in its schools.



Again, my suspicion: What you want is for YOUR Christianity to be taught to all American children .... YOU choose, just little 'ole YOU... what YOU believe or at least YOU find acceptable. Not me. Not Albion. Not my Catholic friend or Mormon neighbor or Universalist coworker. YOU. Just YOU. Why YOU? Why do YOU get to define Christianity and the State Religion that must be taught to OUR children? I have no problem with you teaching it to YOUR children, but you want the government to teach YOUR views to MY children. And you won't even say what those views are.




.

 

[Albion]

If my view is strange to you, then you are part of the problem, as Josiah is.

It's not that it appears strange to me in particular. I simply pointed out that it is strange.

The 'state of affairs now', as you describe, are the result of those who hold the view of 'separation of church and state'.

Are you at last coming around to the truth that the legal systems operating in the USA have made separation of church and state into something that was never intended?

If so, you have no argument with everyone else here who knows this fact but whom you have nevertheless been trying to put into the same group as supporters of the kind of education currently being offered in the public schools..

The fact of the matter is just this: our Christian children can either put up with being indoctrinated by public schools teaching materialist values or else Christian parents can turn to some private school that promotes Christian values and beliefs.

 

[Lees]

It seems absurd (and clearly ENTIRELY unworkable) to insist that public schools FORCE a teaching upon all students without actually teaching them anything. You seem to embrace a "faith" with ZERO content, a faith in NOTHING, a teaching of nothing. Thus, your way to dodge the obvious practical issue here: WHAT religion will be taught? You want a religion to be taught that teachings NOTHING.






If nothing is taught, then how can it be that Christianity is being taught?

Do you hold that Christianity believes nothing? That faith is just faith in NOTHING? How is it going to be explained to our children how Christianity is not Hinduism if nothing is taught about either? Cop out. Pure and simple.

You want to force some form of Christianity to be taught by public schools - but one that teaches nothing about God, the Bible, Jesus, salvation, sin, Baptism, Communion and pretty much everything else... since Christians don't agree on those topics. Okay, I see. A "Christianity" stripped of everything Christians believe, teach and confess. THIS your "answer" to WHICH Christianity will be taught - NONE of them, NOTHING will be taught. Teaching kids that Christianity doesn't believe anything, doesn't have a morality. Faith in.... nothing. THIS the big improvement you hope for. This is your answer to WHAT will be taught: Nothing. How can Christianity be taught if nothing Christian is taught?






I've simply asked WHAT are you suggesting the US Government teach our kids about Christianity. Your answer: Nothing.

Well, that's your response to whether it will teach what the Coptic Orthodox Christians believe Christianity is.... or Oriental Orthodox... or Eastern Orthodox... or contemporary Roman Catholics.... or conservative Lutherans or liberal Lutherans .... or conservative or liberal Anglicans....or Freewill or Reformed Baptists... or Unitarians.... or Mormons.... or 40,000 other Christian denominations in the US. WHICH Christianity? Well, your view: NONE of them because NOTHING will be taught. We won't teach that the Bible is... anything. We won't teach that Jesus is... anything. We'll teach religion but we'll teach nothing. That jsut seems absurd to me. It's just your way to try to avoid the obvious problem with your idea of a forced, State religion, a State Church (one you insist should teach and believe NOTHING).

IMO, a State Religion that believes in NOTHING, that teaches NOTHING, is not Christianity. And seems pretty much the same thing as keeping the State out of the issue of religion in its schools.



Again, my suspicion: What you want is for YOUR Christianity to be taught to all American children .... YOU choose, just little 'ole YOU... what YOU believe or at least YOU find acceptable. Not me. Not Albion. Not my Catholic friend or Mormon neighbor or Universalist coworker. YOU. Just YOU. Why YOU? Why do YOU get to define Christianity and the State Religion that must be taught to OUR children? I have no problem with you teaching it to YOUR children, but you want the government to teach YOUR views to MY children. And you won't even say what those views are.

No, I have explained what I mean by God and religion being in the public schools. You, however, don't like it. You want me to nail down a certain 'doctrine' that must be taught. And I have never said that, as that is not necessary.

Ahhh...your 'suspicion'. I believe we are getting to the heart of the matter. You would rather the schools remain in chaos and teaching atheism and evolution and immorality then letting God back in the schools. Why? Because you fear the vast majority of Christians are Protestant and they would be opposed to Roman teaching. A teaching you opted for with your children, meaning you're not concerned about it's affects upon your children. Thus your 'in the meantime' is nothing but an advertisement for parents to send their children to Roman schools to be indoctrinated. How clever.

Roman Catholics have the most schools in America. Which gives them an edge in affecting the children of America. But to allow God back in public schools would favor Protestants.

So, my question remains. Would you rather leave the public schools in chaos and atheism and immorality as they are now, or would you rather God and Christianity be brought back into the schools? Your actions have answered but I would like to hear a 'confession'. Not holding my breath.

Lees

 

[Lees]

It's not that it appears strange to me in particular. I simply pointed out that it is strange.

At least you are coming around to the truth that the legal systems operating in the USA have made separation of church and state into something that was never intended.

To say that anyone favors this situation--or hates it--doesn't change the fact that our Christian children can either put up with being indoctrinated by public schools teaching against religious values or find some private schools that do a better job.


Again, at least you are now admitting that the situation in the public schools is not what the Constitution intended and, also, that the courts have made it so. This is what you sidestepped when denouncing the idea of a parent choosing a private school that teaches Christian values in preference to that parent sending his kids to the public school.


First, many of them meant a separation of the two as the Constitution intended it, not as more recent courts have twisted the idea.

Second, you are arguing against someone other than the people here on this forum who aren't at all the enemy you are referring to.


See the paragraph of mine just above.

No, I am not now 'admitting' anything. These are and have been my views.

No, I have not sidestepped the wrong of 'separation of church and state'. From the start I have been against it. Why do you want to lie like that?

The Constitution, the First Amendment, doesn't indicate a separation of church and state.

Anyone who supports the 'separation of church and state' just as Josiah does, and apparently you also, are responsible for the atheistic condition of the schools in America.

Just answer the question. Would you rather have God and religion, Christianity, in the public schools, or leave them in the atheism and chaos they are now in?

Lees

 

[Albion]

No, I am not now 'admitting' anything. These are and have been my views.

Okay, so you are standing by your mistaken idea that people here favor the materialistic values being taught in the public schools over opting for something better for their children in a private school. No one here has been arguing for the twisted, revisionist idea of a separation of church and state in the way recent court decisions have defined it.

From the start I have been against it.

So has everyone else here.

 

[Josiah]

Would you rather God and Christianity into the schools?

@Lees

You hide behind a "God" and "Christianity" that are undefined. You hold that Big Government should put God and Christianity into schools but WHAT God - you won't say. You want "Christianity" forced on my child by the State but WHAT Christianity, you won't say.


Let's try this. I'll list a number of Christian views, views some Christians passionately believe, teach and hold as true. Others disagree - quite passionately. You tell me if you think the Government should teach these as correct or as false, which "Christianity" you think the State should impose on my son. That will give me at least a very general idea of the God and Christianity you want the State to bring into its schools and teach MY child. ALL listed below are ideas or practices professed to be RIGHT or WRONG - depending on which Christian you talk to. Several of these have been promoted by people at this website over the years. ALL of them are taught by those insisting they are fully Christians and that these things are taught in the Bible; they are solidly biblical. All are found in various CHRISTIAN churches in the US. What will the State impose upon my children concerning each of these?

Universalism
Sabellianism
Monarchianism
Modalism
Psilanyhropism
Arianisim
Pelagianism
Trinitarianism
Tritheism
The Apostles', Nicene and Athanasian Creeds
The Seven Ecumenical Councils
Marcionism
Antidicomarians
Mary as the Theodokos
Nestorianism
Jesus is 100% God and 100% man
Jesus is 100% God and not a man.
Jesus is 100% man and not God.
Jesus is the Savior - not you.
Jesus makes salvation possible but you are saved by choosing to accept His offer.
"Decision" theology
Predestination in initial justification
Double predestination - both to the saved and the damned.
Quietism
Infant baptism
Anti-paedobaptism
Baptism by immersion only
Baptism by sprinkling, pouring or dipping are perfectly okay
Jesus founded the Catholic Church
Satan is real.
Satan is a personification of evil.
The Bible contains 66 books. Or 73. Or 78. Or 82. Which?
The Bible is the Word of God or contains the Word of God or is the words of men about God?
Abortion is a sin
Abortion is okay.
Same sex marriage is a sin
Same sex marriage is okay and should be blessed by the church.
God created the world in 6 24-hour days
God used "the Big Bang" and Evolution and other aspects of science in His creative work.
We are saved by faith + works.
We are saved without works.
God gives faith
We choose faith
Birth Control is sinful.
Catholics worship Mary and thus commit idolatry
In Communion, Christ is physically present
In Communion, Christ is symbolically present
Christmas is a pagan holiday and not to be celebrated.
Pentecostalism.
Baptism is essential for salvation, no salvation without it.
Baptism is only an outward sign of an inward faith
Once saved - always saved.
There are 7 Sacraments.
There are 2 Sacraments.
There are NO Sacraments.

.... and many other things. And by the way, MOST of the above are found among those calling themselves "Protestants". A LOT of the above have been HOTLY debated - right here at ChristianityHaven - usually by Protestants.

But I have a hunch you'll say the State should impose a Christianity that believes.... nothing. Faith in .... nothing. A void, empty Christianity where ANYTHING goes, NOTHING is right or wrong - cuz you don't want to say WHAT the State would impose upon MY son in the name of "religion" and "Christianity."


Depending on what of the above you think the State should force feed to MY son as true or as false, I can think tell you if I think that would be better or worse than not teaching them any religion. What will be this "Christianity" the State will impose on MY son? When you finally tell me and stop dodging, then I can answer.





.

 

[Lees]

Okay, so you are standing by your mistaken idea that people here favor the materialistic values being taught in the public schools over opting for something better for their children in a private school. No one here has been arguing for the twisted, revisionist idea of a separation of church and state in the way recent court decisions have defined it.

So has everyone else here.

Would you rather have God and Christianity back in the public schools, or have them remain in the chaos and atheism they are now in?

Lees

 

[Lees]

@Josiah, concerning your post #(33)

So much smoke. If you don't like God in public schools, you can opt out for your Catholic school, just like you have done.

Let's try this. Just answer the question.

Would you rather have God and Christianity back in the public schools, or have them remain in the chaos and atheism they are now in?

Lees

 

[Albion]

Would you rather have God and Christianity back in the public schools, or have them remain in the chaos and atheism they are now in?

Lees

The problem with your approach still is that what we would LIKE is not at issue. We'd all prefer to turn back the clock, if that were possible, on what's happened to the public schools.

However, we have to make these decisions for our children while taking account of what the public schools are like at present.

 

[Josiah]

Let's try this. Just answer the question.

Would you rather have God and Christianity back in the public schools, or have them remain in the chaos and atheism they are now in?

The question is unanswerable unless we know WHAT Christianity you want Big Government to force its schools to impose on my son. You refuse to say, so we cannot know if your mysterious proposal would be acceptable or not, better or worse.


So, perhaps you'll STOP the dodge, the evasion....


Let's try this. I'll list a number of Christian views, views some Christians and some Christian churches and denominations passionately believe, teach and hold as true. Others disagree - quite passionately. You tell me if you think the Government should teach these as correct or as false, which "Christianity" you think the State should impose on my son. That will give me some idea of the God and Christianity you want the State to bring into its schools and teach MY child. ALL listed below are ideas or practices professed to be RIGHT or WRONG - depending on which Christian you talk to. ALL of them are taught by those insisting they are fully Christians and that these things are taught in the Bible; insisting their view is solidly biblical. All are found in various CHRISTIAN churches in the US either to affirm or to deny. What will the State impose upon my son concerning each of these?

Universalism
Sabellianism
Monarchianism
Modalism
Psilanyhropism
Arianisim
Pelagianism
Trinitarianism
Tritheism
The Apostles', Nicene and Athanasian Creeds. Right? Wrong? Normative or not?
The Seven Ecumenical Councils. Right? Wrong? Normative or not?
Marcionism
Antidicomarians
Mary as the Theodokos
Nestorianism
Jesus is 100% God and 100% man
Jesus is 100% God and not a man.
Jesus is 100% man and not God.
Jesus is the Savior - not you.
Jesus makes salvation possible but you are saved by choosing to accept His offer.
"Decision" theology
Predestination in initial justification
Double predestination - both to the saved and the damned.
Quietism
Infant baptism
Anti-paedobaptism
Baptism by immersion only
Baptism by sprinkling, pouring or dipping are perfectly okay
Baptism as salvic
Jesus founded the Catholic Church
Satan is real.
Satan is a personification of evil.
The Bible contains 66 books. Or 73. Or 78. Or 82. Which?
The Bible is the Word of God or contains the Word of God or is the words of men about God?
All the books of the Bible are equally normative
Abortion is a sin
Abortion is okay.
Same sex marriage is a sin
Same sex marriage is okay and should be blessed by the church.
God created the world in 6 24-hour days
God used "the Big Bang" and Evolution and other aspects of science in His creative work.
We are saved by faith + works.
We are saved without works.
God gives faith
We choose faith
Birth Control is sinful.
Catholics worship Mary and thus commit idolatry
In Communion, Christ is physically present
In Communion, Christ is symbolically present
Christmas is a pagan holiday and not to be celebrated.
Pentecostalism.
Baptism is essential for salvation, no salvation without it.
Baptism is only an outward sign of an inward faith
Once saved - always saved.
There are 7 Sacraments.
There are 2 Sacraments.
There are NO Sacraments.

.... and many other things. And by the way, MOST of the above are found among those calling themselves "Protestants". A LOT of the above have been HOTLY debated - right here at ChristianityHaven - usually by Protestants.



@Lees

I KNOW exactly where the Catholic Church stands on EVERY ONE of the points above - all of them - every one of them - AND I know where the Catholic School my son attends on EVERY ONE of the points above. I KNOW... on ALL of the points above. THEREFORE, I can assess if it's acceptable or not. But you won't state ANYTHING about what your scenario would teach and impose on my son. NOTHING. You REFUSE to say what Christianity would be forced on my son by the State. You won't address any of the points, much less all of them, therefore, it's impossible to know if your proposal would be better or worse (perhaps MUCH worse). Stop your the absolute evasion and dodge. Address every one of the points above - all of them - otherwise, your point is meaningless and your question here obviously unanswerable.



.

 

[Lees]

The problem with your approach still is that what we would LIKE is not at issue. We'd all prefer to turn back the clock, if that were possible, on what's happened to the public schools.

However, we have to make these decisions for our children while taking account of what the public schools are like at present.

The subject is 'to keep religion and God out of public schools'.

There is no problem with my approach. It's a simple question.

Would you rather have God and Christianity back in the public schools, or would your rather leave them in the atheism and chaos they are now in?

The question is pertinent to the subject.

Lees

 

[Lees]

The question is unanswerable unless we know WHAT Christianity you want Big Government to force its schools to impose on my son. You refuse to say, so we cannot know if your mysterious proposal would be acceptable or not, better or worse.


So, perhaps you'll STOP the dodge, the evasion....


Let's try this. I'll list a number of Christian views, views some Christians and some Christian churches and denominations passionately believe, teach and hold as true. Others disagree - quite passionately. You tell me if you think the Government should teach these as correct or as false, which "Christianity" you think the State should impose on my son. That will give me some idea of the God and Christianity you want the State to bring into its schools and teach MY child. ALL listed below are ideas or practices professed to be RIGHT or WRONG - depending on which Christian you talk to. ALL of them are taught by those insisting they are fully Christians and that these things are taught in the Bible; insisting their view is solidly biblical. All are found in various CHRISTIAN churches in the US either to affirm or to deny. What will the State impose upon my son concerning each of these?

Universalism
Sabellianism
Monarchianism
Modalism
Psilanyhropism
Arianisim
Pelagianism
Trinitarianism
Tritheism
The Apostles', Nicene and Athanasian Creeds. Right? Wrong? Normative or not?
The Seven Ecumenical Councils. Right? Wrong? Normative or not?
Marcionism
Antidicomarians
Mary as the Theodokos
Nestorianism
Jesus is 100% God and 100% man
Jesus is 100% God and not a man.
Jesus is 100% man and not God.
Jesus is the Savior - not you.
Jesus makes salvation possible but you are saved by choosing to accept His offer.
"Decision" theology
Predestination in initial justification
Double predestination - both to the saved and the damned.
Quietism
Infant baptism
Anti-paedobaptism
Baptism by immersion only
Baptism by sprinkling, pouring or dipping are perfectly okay
Baptism as salvic
Jesus founded the Catholic Church
Satan is real.
Satan is a personification of evil.
The Bible contains 66 books. Or 73. Or 78. Or 82. Which?
The Bible is the Word of God or contains the Word of God or is the words of men about God?
All the books of the Bible are equally normative
Abortion is a sin
Abortion is okay.
Same sex marriage is a sin
Same sex marriage is okay and should be blessed by the church.
God created the world in 6 24-hour days
God used "the Big Bang" and Evolution and other aspects of science in His creative work.
We are saved by faith + works.
We are saved without works.
God gives faith
We choose faith
Birth Control is sinful.
Catholics worship Mary and thus commit idolatry
In Communion, Christ is physically present
In Communion, Christ is symbolically present
Christmas is a pagan holiday and not to be celebrated.
Pentecostalism.
Baptism is essential for salvation, no salvation without it.
Baptism is only an outward sign of an inward faith
Once saved - always saved.
There are 7 Sacraments.
There are 2 Sacraments.
There are NO Sacraments.

.... and many other things. And by the way, MOST of the above are found among those calling themselves "Protestants". A LOT of the above have been HOTLY debated - right here at ChristianityHaven - usually by Protestants.



@Lees

I KNOW exactly where the Catholic Church stands on EVERY ONE of the points above - all of them - every one of them - AND I know where the Catholic School my son attends on EVERY ONE of the points above. I KNOW... on ALL of the points above. THEREFORE, I can assess if it's acceptable or not. But you won't state ANYTHING about what your scenario would teach and impose on my son. NOTHING. You REFUSE to say what Christianity would be forced on my son by the State. You won't address any of the points, much less all of them, therefore, it's impossible to know if your proposal would be better or worse (perhaps MUCH worse). Stop your the absolute evasion and dodge. Address every one of the points above - all of them - otherwise, your point is meaningless and your question here obviously unanswerable.

More smoke. Good for you. You know all about the Roman church and have chosen to send your kids there. You chose to put your kids in a school where Christianity is represented, though it is not your preference, you say.

My question is, would you rather have God and Christianity back in the public schools, or would you rather leave them in the atheism and chaos they are in now? It's not unanswerable. It's a simple question that you don't want to answer.

The schools are in the shape they are in because God and Christianity were taken out. Just like you want. Result, atheism is taught. Immorality is taught. Chaos is everywhere. Result, you pull your kids out and put them in a Roman school, contrary to what you say your Christian preference is. This is why you won't answer the question. You don't want to admit your 'separation of church and state' is wrong. Though your actions speak other wise. Oxymoronic.

I don't need to address all your points which is silly. I have already explained my view of what God and Christianity would look like back in the public schools. And it doesn't include your points. Which you continue to ignore.

Your refusal to answer and your actions speak very loud. You would rather have God and Christianity out of the public schools no matter the atheism and immorality that is taught. Forcing parents to look to an alternative which you advertise as the Roman Catholic Schools.

My opinion.

Lees

 

[Josiah]

Would you rather have God and Christianity in the public schools

In California (and I suspect all 50 states), it is legally REQUIRED of all school districts to make FULLY KNOWN exactly what will be taught or presented or done in the classroom. You can go to the District Office, anytime within business hours, no appointment necessary - and see the curriculum and all else related to the classroom - BEFORE your child is exposed to it. AND you have the legal right to "opt out" of this, but of course you need to know - fully, exactly - what it is that would otherwise be presented, taught, done.

@Lee, what you are proposing - "putting God and Christianity into public schools" WITHOUT telling us WHAT would be taught as "God" and "Christianity"- is illegal in California. You MUST state - in print - to ALL parents to see and read - EXACTLY what will be presented. So that parents can choose to have the school impose this on their child OR opt out. BUT they MUST know exactly WHAT will be taught. The full curriculum, the policies, the procedures MUST be made fully available. Parents can even take it home to preview it on their own, at home. It's the law.

But you won't tell us. You REFUSE to disclose what God and what Christianity Big Government would put into its schools, what God and religion would you insist the Government would impose upon my son. You REFUSE to say, you evidently want California (or Planned Parenthood or whatever curriculum provider it chooses) to decide - and hide it from parents. Just as you are doing.


@Lees

I KNOW exactly where the Catholic Church stands on EVERY ONE of the points in post 37 - all of them - every one of them - AND I know where the Catholic School my son attends on EVERY ONE of the points above. I KNOW... on ALL of the points above. THEREFORE, I can assess if it's acceptable or not. But you won't state ANYTHING about what your scenario would teach and impose on my son. NOTHING. You want the government owned and run public school to just pull out of hat WHATEVER it wants - without anyone knowing what will and won't be presented to my son. You refuse to disclose WHAT God and WHAT Christianity would be forced on my son by the State. You won't address any of the points in post 37, much less all of them, therefore, it's impossible to know if your proposal would be better or worse (perhaps MUCH worse). Only that it's illegal for a public school to do as you want - force feed something to my child without fully disclosing in advance WHAT God and WHAT Christianity it would impose. Stop your the absolute evasion and dodge. Address every one of the points - all of them - otherwise, your point is meaningless, your proposal illegal, and your question here obviously unanswerable.

I don't need to address your points

Well, you refuse to.

Is this because you view Christianity as having NO views, NO morality, NO truth - it's just one big void of nothing? Or is it because it doesn't matter to you if the God and Christianity California would impose upon my child is true or false, right or wrong, correct or horribly incorrect? Or are you simply ASSUMING that California will as YOU what YOU think and YOU to write the curriculum and policies for this imposition of Christianity into our schools and THEN (only then) disclose what Christianity will be imposed?

You seem to want ANYTHING to be allowed, as long as it's called "Christianity." So, let's see.... school opens with "The Lord's Prayer"

Our - well, maybe someone's or maybe not but not everyone's
Father - or mother or sister or Cosmic Force but maybe fatherS or sisterS or the Great Monist It but maybe just a myth
Who - well, if there is a who
Are - or maybe isn't
In - if there is a god and if he's not died
Heaven - whatever that is, maybe it's nothing

You get the idea.... That's what you want. That sort of thing. AND you want the government to call this "CHRISTIANITY." You want the State to impose a God and Religion entirely undefined, empty, void... faith in NOTHING. And you want the schools to insist THAT is what Christianity is: nothingism, void, empty. Yeah, that's worse than what we have.




.