The development of Doctrine

[Lanman87]

It means what it says, specifically, if @Lanman87, for example, knows that the Catholic Church is founded by God as necessary for salvation and yet obstinately refuses to enter it or to remain in it then he is not saved.

You ignored the greater question. What does it mean to "Know" the Catholic church is founded by God and refuse to enter or remain in it?

I gave several examples of different situations. Which of those meet that criteria?

 

[MoreCoffee]

What does it mean to "Know"

Knowledge is normally defined as justified true belief.

 

[Lanman87]

Knowledge is normally defined as justified true belief.

What is the best definition of knowledge?


: the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association. (2) : acquaintance with or understanding of a science, art, or technique. b(1) : the fact or condition of being aware of something.


So to "Know the church is necessary" means that I can't just be aware of and understand that claim, I have to accept it as fact?

 

[MoreCoffee]

to "Know the church is necessary" means

This was answered in posts 20 and 22.

 

[Lanman87]

This was answered in posts 20 and 22.

It was inferred in 20 and 22. For clarification, Can you give a yes or no answer?

 

[MoreCoffee]

It was inferred in 20 and 22. For clarification, Can you give a yes or no answer?

no. Definitions are not yes/no questions.

 

[Lanman87]

no. Definitions are not yes/no questions.

I was referring to the questions in post #19

If I'm a Baptist and I read a book that tells me that Catholicism is true and I need to enter into it and I reject that message does that mean "I know the Catholic church is necessary and refuse to enter it or remain in it"?

How about if one was baptized Catholic, was confirmed Catholic and later leaves Catholicism for a non-Catholic church? (Which includes the Lead Pastor of the church I attend and several active members of our local church). Do people like that know that the Catholic church is necessary and yet refused to remain in it?

Is my Pastor, who professes faith in Christ, teaches people about Christ, and works in ministry of the Gospel damned because he left the Catholic church?

Those are all Y/N questions. You posted the CCC, which doesn't give Y/N answers, and didn't answer those questions yourself.

 

[Castle Church]

How about if one was baptized Catholic, was confirmed Catholic and later leaves Catholicism for a non-Catholic church? (Which includes the Lead Pastor of the church I attend and several active members of our local church). Do people like that know that the Catholic church is necessary and yet refused to remain in it?

The uncomfortable answer to that is they are consciously leaving the church and are damning themselves.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If I'm a Baptist and I read a book that tells me that Catholicism is true and I need to enter into it and I reject that message does that mean "I know the Catholic church is necessary and refuse to enter it or remain in it"?

knowing is holding a justified true belief. Since you wrote that you do not believe it then you do not know it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

How about if one was baptized Catholic, was confirmed Catholic and later leaves Catholicism for a non-Catholic church? (Which includes the Lead Pastor of the church I attend and several active members of our local church). Do people like that know that the Catholic church is necessary and yet refused to remain in it?

Why did you leave? Was it because you did not believe that "that the Catholic Church is founded by God as necessary for salvation"? Did you think that claim was untrue and unjustified? If so, then you did not know it, because knowing something is believing it to be true because of evidence that justifies the claim.

 

[Lanman87]

Why did you leave? Was it because you did not believe that "that the Catholic Church is founded by God as necessary for salvation"? Did you think that claim was untrue and unjustified? If so, then you did not know it, because knowing something is believing it to be true because of evidence that justifies the claim.

What about people that change their mind? They believe that "the Catholic Church is founded by God as necessary for salvation" but then stop believing it but keep believing in Christ and working out their faith, albeit in another tradition?

 

[MoreCoffee]

What about people that change their mind? They believe that "the Catholic Church is founded by God as necessary for salvation" but then stop believing it but keep believing in Christ and working out their faith, albeit in another tradition?

Only God knows what they did, if it was sin, and if it is forgiven. Why are you asking me this stuff, as if you think I ought to know the secret things of God and the inner thoughts of other people's minds/hearts?

 

[Josiah]

What about people that change their mind? They believe that "the Catholic Church is founded by God as necessary for salvation" but then stop believing it but keep believing in Christ and working out their faith, albeit in another

@Lanman87


To be Catholic (Big "C") one must accept - "with docility" BECAUSE the RCC itself alone claim such for it itself alone - that Jesus founded IT and THUS it has unmitigated AUTHORITY (power) and thus is unaccountable; you are to swallow whole whatever it itself says if it itself says you are. All this is drilled into Catholics. BUT, since you too are a former Catholic... and since all of us know MANY Catholics - the truth is almost no one buys that. The simple, obvious, undeniable truth is that very few Catholics are, well... Catholic, because they don't accept the very thing that would make them "Catholic." I could not SAY that I did when I didn't - so I left.

The great majority of Catholics are what are sometimes called "Cafeteria Catholics" - they accept what they accept. And that's often a lot. They are Catholics because they think that's the best church there is, that it's teachings are better than any other denominations, they like the worship and feel the culture, they like the morality (well, pro-life and pro-family if not contraception). They feel blessed there. They are not "anti" any other church - they are valid too - but they are happy in the RCC. And that seems okay with me. I accept probably 95% of the 2,865 points of the 800 page long Catholic Catechism - more than just about any Catholic known to me - but I can't lie about the parts I don't accept "with docility BECAUSE the RCC tells me to" and so I'm not Catholic. I'm Lutheran.



I may address the issue of salvation in the RCC as you and our Catholic brother have been discussing, but that's a really, really messy, muddy topic in Catholicism - hard to discuss, especially since it considers Lutheranism's view to be absolute heresy of the worse kind, so horrible it needed to split itself over it to reject it. Yet, I know so many Catholics whose view is, well, totally Lutheran.... and I know Catholics who are raging Pelagianists (technically a heresy in Catholicism but VERY often proclaimed). They are all over the map... and it often comes off as very muddy.


Blessings on your Easter celebration.


- Josiah



.

 

[Albion]

How about if one was baptized Catholic, was confirmed Catholic and later leaves Catholicism for a non-Catholic church? (Which includes the Lead Pastor of the church I attend and several active members of our local church). Do people like that know that the Catholic church is necessary and yet refused to remain in it?

Most likely, no.

Is my Pastor, who professes faith in Christ, teaches people about Christ, and works in ministry of the Gospel damned because he left the Catholic church?

No. Not unless he sincerely believed that the RCC is the one true and only genuine church but left it anyway. It's most unlikely that this does describe your pastor's thinking, and even then it's an open question whether abandoning membership in the RCC in itself damns anyone.

Those are all Y/N questions. You posted the CCC, which doesn't give Y/N answers, and didn't answer those questions yourself.

Note: the above comments are more responses from a third party, not a Roman Catholic. Of course, the point was to have the thinking of a member of the Catholic Church, but while we wait for that...

 

[Lanman87]

Why are you asking me this stuff

To see what a Catholic is taught about such things.

 

[Lanman87]

Why did you leave?

I am not a former Catholic. I do know many former Catholics. I know one current Catholic who considered leaving the Catholic church but was told to do so would send her to hell. To my knowledge (i've lost contact with her) she is still a Catholic.

 

[Lanman87]

. BUT, since you too are a former Catholic... a

I'm not a former Catholic. My post are generalities, mostly about people I know who are former Catholics.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I know one current Catholic who considered leaving the Catholic church

People come and go in every community. It's not unusual.

 

[MoreCoffee]

To see what a Catholic is taught about such things.

Just read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or if you want, also read the Catechism of the Council of Trent, and if you need ancient catechesis then Saint Augustine wrote a catechism. There's no shortage of documents to tell you what Catholics teach, and when you want official dogmatic teaching the Vatican web site has it.

Give this a go, if you like

 

[Lanman87]

Just read the Catechism of the Catholic Church,

Like most documents, the CCC itself needs interpretation and explanation or deep study. I had rather just ask a Catholic what they think it means. I've gotten different answers on questions from different Catholics.

For instance, on this particular question I've gotten a long response about "Invincible Ignorance". With some saying that if someone has tried to convince you that the Catholic church is "necessary" and refuse to join then you no longer have an excuse. When that happens "invincible ignorance" is no longer in play. While others, like you, say that if you accept the fact that the Catholic church is necessary and refuse to join then you no longer have an excuse.