God's apology to mankind

Lucian Hodoboc

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ChatGPT wrote this:


I hope God has some sort of good argument for all this mess. An apology would be appreciated, but I know He's too stubborn to admit that He's wrong, so I'd settle for an explanation.

Watch the video (it's short) and let me know what you think.
 

tango

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Not really interested in TikTok.

Perish the thought that we might be wrong though. Heaven forbid that our way isn't the only way.
 

Lees

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ChatGPT wrote this:


I hope God has some sort of good argument for all this mess. An apology would be appreciated, but I know He's too stubborn to admit that He's wrong, so I'd settle for an explanation.

Watch the video (it's short) and let me know what you think.

Not interested in a video that implies God needs to apologize for anything.

The explanation 'for all this mess' is found in the Bible.

You ask God to apologize. You call God stubborn. You accuse Him of being wrong. You demand an explanation from God. Yet you call yourself 'Christian'. Why?

Lees
 

Lucian Hodoboc

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Not really interested in TikTok.
When did I ask you to be interested in TikTok? It's a video sharing platform. I posted a link to a video hosted on a public video sharing platform. The topic revolves around the content presented in the video. If you are not willing to watch the video (which is a little over a minute long), then I don't know why you would want to partake in the thread.
 

Lucian Hodoboc

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Not interested in a video that implies God needs to apologize for anything.

The explanation 'for all this mess' is found in the Bible.

You ask God to apologize. You call God stubborn. You accuse Him of being wrong. You demand an explanation from God. Yet you call yourself 'Christian'. Why?

Lees
Why are you derailing the topic? If you want to find out the reasons why I call myself a Christian, you could start a new thread about it or you could post the question on my profile page.

The video is very interesting. I highly recommend checking it out. You don't need to have TikTok installed to watch it. The link opens in the browser if you don't have the app.

And no, the explanation for all this mess is not found in the Bible. I've read it several times and I have yet to found an answer for why God created a system in which the actions of one creature reverberates and affects other creatures. That just seems like bad design to me.
 

Lees

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Why are you derailing the topic? If you want to find out the reasons why I call myself a Christian, you could start a new thread about it or you could post the question on my profile page.

The video is very interesting. I highly recommend checking it out. You don't need to have TikTok installed to watch it. The link opens in the browser if you don't have the app.

And no, the explanation for all this mess is not found in the Bible. I've read it several times and I have yet to found an answer for why God created a system in which the actions of one creature reverberates and affects other creatures. That just seems like bad design to me.

I'm not derailing the topic. You bring accusations against God that no Christian would ever do. My question to you, 'why do you call yourself Christian' is legitimate.

The actions of 'one's action counted to others', or rather the 'doctrine of Federal Headship', is a perfect design by God in order to save millions who would not otherwise be saved.

Such a doctrine appeases God's righteousness for any who come to Christ. Without it, only one person could be the beneficiary of Christ substitutionary death. A life for a life.

I have found that those, like yourself, who hate the doctrine of 'Federal Headship', seem to believe that they would rather God judge every man on the basis of his own merit. As though they would never sin. How silly.

God created Federal Headship because it provided salvation by faith for many through One, and appeased His righteous demands. (Rom. 3:26)

Such a salvation insures that it cannot be imitated. A person can do plenty of good works and be acceptable before men as a 'good man', yet have no faith in Christ.

So, which do you hate. That man is counted a sinner in Adam because of Adam's sin? Or, because man is counted righteous in Christ, because of Christs good work?

Lees
 

Lucian Hodoboc

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I'm not talking about any "doctrine of federal headship". I'm talking about the system in which the actions of a person affect another person against the latter's will. The mechanics of existence should be in such a way as no creature to be able to interact with another creature in any way unless both of them consent to the interaction, no matter what the interaction might be.

As for this "someone being counted sinful or righteous in another person's place", I find that to be irrational and unjust.

You view a totalitarian system as "righteous". I do not. The very nature of forcing creatures to do anything against their will is intrinsically unrighteous. Even if said thing you are forcing them to do against their will is objectively good. If they don't want to partake in existence, they should have the choice to not partake.

Why would one be judged for falling short of God's demands if one didn't agree to exist and didn't consent to God's rules in the first place? How does that makes sense outside of a totalitarian system? I don't think it does. And there's really not much room for debate with someone who holds to a totalitarian ideology.
 

tango

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When did I ask you to be interested in TikTok? It's a video sharing platform. I posted a link to a video hosted on a public video sharing platform. The topic revolves around the content presented in the video. If you are not willing to watch the video (which is a little over a minute long), then I don't know why you would want to partake in the thread.

You posted a video with a link suggesting God got it all wrong and somehow owes us an apology for it. I don't need to watch a video to figure that concluding God owes us an apology is unlikely to go anywhere constructive.
 

tango

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And no, the explanation for all this mess is not found in the Bible. I've read it several times and I have yet to found an answer for why God created a system in which the actions of one creature reverberates and affects other creatures. That just seems like bad design to me.

If you're starting from the assumption that all this is a mess, and that it "just seems like bad design to (you)" then it's hardly surprising your conclusions will be that God royally messed it up and owes us all an apology. As we say in IT, garbage in, garbage out. If you start with a faulty assumption anything drawn from that assumption will be faulty.

If the actions of one creature didn't affect other creatures how would we ever experience friendship, companionship, love?
 

tango

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I'm not talking about any "doctrine of federal headship". I'm talking about the system in which the actions of a person affect another person against the latter's will. The mechanics of existence should be in such a way as no creature to be able to interact with another creature in any way unless both of them consent to the interaction, no matter what the interaction might be.

... and yet here you are, posting things nobody else consented to seeing appearing on their feed. Fate does have a certain irony to it, no?

As for this "someone being counted sinful or righteous in another person's place", I find that to be irrational and unjust.

I guess next time God creates something he should ask Lucian for permission to do it that way?

You view a totalitarian system as "righteous". I do not. The very nature of forcing creatures to do anything against their will is intrinsically unrighteous. Even if said thing you are forcing them to do against their will is objectively good. If they don't want to partake in existence, they should have the choice to not partake.

Who is being forced to do anything? Are you being forced to do something you don't want to do? Who is forcing you to do it?

Why would one be judged for falling short of God's demands if one didn't agree to exist and didn't consent to God's rules in the first place? How does that makes sense outside of a totalitarian system? I don't think it does. And there's really not much room for debate with someone who holds to a totalitarian ideology.

If you think that you must be the ultimate authority in the universe then I suppose you could demand to consent to every single thing that affects you. I never consented to the tax system but the taxman will prosecute me if I don't pay my taxes. I never consented to the "social contract" we hear about, nor to the laws where I was born, but I'm still expected to obey them. For that matter nobody asked my permission before giving birth to me, so one could easily argue I never consented to be human at all. Maybe I'd prefer to be a cat, or an eagle, or a unicorn. It's so unfair.
 

Lucian Hodoboc

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I don't need to watch a video to figure that concluding God owes us an apology is unlikely to go anywhere constructive.
That's because you hold an opinion that you are unwilling to even question, much less change. I do not do that. I take into consideration that I might be wrong and that God might be right. I'm not convinced of this, but I am open to the idea. You, on the other hand, refuse to question your worldview altogether. Even watching a short video that would make you ponder whether you might be wrong is inconceivable for you.
 

Lees

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I'm not talking about any "doctrine of federal headship". I'm talking about the system in which the actions of a person affect another person against the latter's will. The mechanics of existence should be in such a way as no creature to be able to interact with another creature in any way unless both of them consent to the interaction, no matter what the interaction might be.

As for this "someone being counted sinful or righteous in another person's place", I find that to be irrational and unjust.

You view a totalitarian system as "righteous". I do not. The very nature of forcing creatures to do anything against their will is intrinsically unrighteous. Even if said thing you are forcing them to do against their will is objectively good. If they don't want to partake in existence, they should have the choice to not partake.

Why would one be judged for falling short of God's demands if one didn't agree to exist and didn't consent to God's rules in the first place? How does that makes sense outside of a totalitarian system? I don't think it does. And there's really not much room for debate with someone who holds to a totalitarian ideology.

Actually you are talking about the doctrine of 'Federal Headship'. You just don't know it because you don't know the Bible. God didn't ask anyone if they wanted to be born a sinner...did He? In other words, their will played no role in it....did it? God cared not for anyone's interaction in the matter. And He cares not for your disapproval.

If you want to find God unjust in this matter, so be it. Be happy with your decision and in that day, take it up with Him.

No, I view Gods plan of salvation as extremely graceful and full of mercy. It is 'just' based upon Christ's Sacrifice. The Christian does not seek 'justice'. He seeks mercy. God takes care of the 'justice' as it's His righteousness that must be satisfied. For some reason you are delusional in thinking your idea of justice is above God's.

One's will is not forced. But it does display and reveal whether one is of God or not. The one of God, wills to be saved, wills to have Christ as his Saviour. The one not of God, wills to have nothing to do with God. He whines and complains of the unjustness of God. Do you understand?

Whether you agree to exist or not is immaterial. You're not God. Does that bother you? Apparently so. God asked neither angels or man if they wanted to be created. God creates. And here you whine because God created man and you are born of man, and you don't like God. You reveal who you are of.

Lees
 
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tango

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That's because you hold an opinion that you are unwilling to even question, much less change.

You obviously don't know me very well. Like, you don't know me at all.

I do not do that. I take into consideration that I might be wrong and that God might be right. I'm not convinced of this, but I am open to the idea. You, on the other hand, refuse to question your worldview altogether. Even watching a short video that would make you ponder whether you might be wrong is inconceivable for you.

I'm not interested in watching videos, it's a pretty simple concept. If you want to explain the idea in your own words rather than simply dumping someone else's work in a thread that's a different matter.

But hey, I'm glad you know so much about my willingness to shake up a worldview. I suppose it's easier to throw ad hominem attacks around than to address the issues raised.
 

Lucian Hodoboc

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I'm not interested in watching videos
So, if a topic exists on the internet in video form (as it normally does in this day and age), you require a transcript of the entire video posted in the forum threads in order for you to actually engage in the conversation in a relevant manner?

If that's the case, I find your request unreasonable, as it would be too time-consuming to transcribe the audio.
You obviously don't know me very well. Like, you don't know me at all.
What does me not knowing you have to do with anything? Your replies in this thread clearly show that you hold the opinion that God is unable to make mistakes. You said that the idea that God could possible owe anyone an apology cannot lead to anything constructive. From the start, you dismissed the possibility of analyzing God's behavior. That is sufficient evidence of the fact that you hold an opinion that you are unwilling to even question, much less change. I don't need to know anything else about you in order to reach this conclusion.
 

tango

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So, if a topic exists on the internet in video form (as it normally does in this day and age), you require a transcript of the entire video posted in the forum threads in order for you to actually engage in the conversation in a relevant manner?

If that's the case, I find your request unreasonable, as it would be too time-consuming to transcribe the audio.

You could try reading what I wrote instead of throwing out another strawman.

If you want to make a point, how about summarizing the contents of the video in your own words? Anyone can post a video link and say "what do you think of this?"

What does me not knowing you have to do with anything? Your replies in this thread clearly show that you hold the opinion that God is unable to make mistakes. You said that the idea that God could possible owe anyone an apology cannot lead to anything constructive. From the start, you dismissed the possibility of analyzing God's behavior. That is sufficient evidence of the fact that you hold an opinion that you are unwilling to even question, much less change. I don't need to know anything else about you in order to reach this conclusion.

Well, you made lots of comments about me so the fact you clearly don't know me is directly relevant to that.

You also overlook quite a lot of nuance. If I think someone else did it wrong, maybe I'm wrong. Before jumping from "I disagree with this" to "this is wrong" it's worth considering that maybe "this is right" and "I am wrong".

There are several things about God that I don't understand. There are several things about life that I don't understand, and the list grows as I get older because the reality is that with each passing year I encounter more things that don't necessarily make sense to me. To conclude that this inherently means God got it wrong is absurd. Would I have set things up differently? Maybe. Would my way have worked out any better? Who knows - we'll never have an opportunity to find out.

It's impossible to "test all things, hold fast what is true" without, you know, testing things. Sometimes testing things leads to belief systems being shaken, and sometimes that's uncomfortable. Sometimes it's bewildering. Sometimes things you thought were true don't seem to hold up and you need to assess what beliefs are worth keeping and what are not.

Let me ask you something. In this thread alone you've talked a lot about the actions of one impacting another, and not consenting to all sorts of things. How would your world work if nothing can happen to you or around you without your express consent? Would you require every other creature to operate in silence so you wouldn't be forced to hear them? Would you want your eyes to be shuttered so you were never exposed to a sight you didn't consent to see? Would you want every aspect of chance to be removed from life, even down to being guaranteed your preferred outcome every time you attempted anything? I've had a few trips that could be regarded as wasted, like the time I made a 20-mile round trip to a mountain top to photograph the setting sun only to find the clouds rolled in at the crucial moment and I didn't get a single good picture, but instead put my camera away and enjoyed watching the light fade with my wife. Or the time I went on a scavenger hunt and spent an hour totally failing to find the hidden treasure but ended up meeting a couple who were there doing something else and subsequently getting to know them, which in turn led to meeting one of their relatives who became a good friend. Yes, I know, maybe silly God could have just done away with all the chance, allowed me to declare "I hereby consent to a new friend entering my life in 3... 2... 1... " and then have the encounter without all the back story about how I came to meet the friend. We could all be reprogrammed to not find that life to be really rather dull.

Maybe God could have made the world such that I could run a 4-minute mile while still spending my days sitting in my recliner eating pies. It would certainly be easier than the current world where I can't get anywhere near that kind of time even having cut down on the pie eating. Maybe God could have made me with a build-in recliner - perhaps an inflatable posterior that would become a recliner on demand. It would save me having to go out and buy a recliner, and it would mean I could sit in comfort wherever I happened to be. Never mind space constraints. Does God owe me an apology for the fact he made gravity work the way it does, so I can't bound over houses effortlessly - he could have made gravity subject to my ongoing consent so it could stop me floating off into space but could be suspended any time I wanted so I could float and fly.

Or maybe there's a reason for things being the way they are - the fact we might not understand the reason doesn't mean no reason exists. We can ponder "wouldn't it be nice if...." all we want. If we had our way the chances are we'd still be unhappy about something. Perhaps we'd be better off as robots with no capacity to experience joy and sorrow, love and hate, pleasure and pain. But that's not what God wanted and, if God made us, he gets to make us how he chooses.
 

Odë:hgöd

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According to 1Pet 1:18-21 & Rev 13:8 Jesus was designated, and scheduled, for the
cross prior to beginning the creation. In other words: mankind's depravity didn't
take God by surprise, rather, He had it factored it into the grand scheme of things
from the very beginning.

God knew in advance that He would regret creating mankind, and would have to
destroy much of it in a global deluge; yet He went ahead and brought them into
existence anyway.

He has also known from the very beginning who would, and who would not, take
the wide road to Hell. In point of fact, He has always known that not the minority,
rather, the majority would take that road. In other words; He was aware, prior to
placing mankind on the Earth, that most of us will end up in the lake of fire
depicted at Rev 20:11-15.

I don't know how to explain that kind of irrational behavior coming from someone
whose intelligence is reputed to be the smartest and the wisest of all.
_
 

Lucian Hodoboc

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I don't know how to explain that kind of irrational behavior coming from someone
whose intelligence is reputed to be the smartest and the wisest of all.
Well, it's simple. It's not about wisdom. It's about morality. The only rational explanation for a God Who willingly creates creatures that He knows will disobey Him within a system in which disobedience leads to eternal suffering, is that He is either not all-powerful or not all-good. He cannot have both these characteristics simultaneously.
 

prism

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And no, the explanation for all this mess is not found in the Bible. I've read it several times and I have yet to found an answer for why God created a system in which the actions of one creature reverberates and affects other creatures. That just seems like bad design to me.
Try reading Genesis 3 and Romans 5. They explain quite clearly how we got into this mess.
 

tango

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Well, it's simple. It's not about wisdom. It's about morality. The only rational explanation for a God Who willingly creates creatures that He knows will disobey Him within a system in which disobedience leads to eternal suffering, is that He is either not all-powerful or not all-good. He cannot have both these characteristics simultaneously.

It's still about your concept of morality.

If your concept of morality is absolutely correct then God is some kind of bimbling putz who can barely tie his own shoelaces. Of course if there's more to it than your concept of morality then maybe there's some purpose behind it all.

If I decide to bang my head against a brick wall it will hurt. Is that God's fault for not making bricks soft and fluffy?
 

Lucian Hodoboc

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Try reading Genesis 3 and Romans 5. They explain quite clearly how we got into this mess.
I did read it. I read the whole Bible over and over again. That's how I started losing my faith. Well, that and the unanswered prayers.

We did not get ourselves into this mess. We didn't ask to be created, nor did we consent to existing by God's rules. They were imposed unto us and we had no say in it. I know I didn't. I'm pretty sure that Adam and Eve didn't either. But even if they did, the fact that we are treated as a monolith, as a "hive mind", is unacceptable and wrong. The very system, in which the actions of a creature affect other creatures against their will, is flawed. There is no excuse for me (or anyone else, for that matter) having to suffer because an ancestor (or any other creature) made mistakes.

It's still about your concept of morality.

If your concept of morality is absolutely correct then God is some kind of bimbling putz who can barely tie his own shoelaces. Of course if there's more to it than your concept of morality then maybe there's some purpose behind it all.

If I decide to bang my head against a brick wall it will hurt. Is that God's fault for not making bricks soft and fluffy?
Even if there is another concept of morality, if God presents said concept of morality to me and I disagree with it, I'd still be forced to follow a system of morality that I dislike in order to avoid being tortured for eternity. Which is, in turn, morally wrong. "Obey my system of morality or suffer" is morally wrong. That is a dictator mentality.

And, to answer your last question, yes, it is God's fault. He's omnipotent. He could have simply made a world in which impact does not cause injury or pain. He could have made a world in which bricks (and all hard objects) temporarily turn soft when a living lifeform hits them.
 
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