What do we tell unsaved about biblical election?

[Josiah]

@Broadway

Predestination/Election


Some Scriptures:

1 Peter 1:1-3
"To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead"

Ephesians 1:3-7
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

2 Thessalonians 2:13
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

Acts 13:48
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to believe."

Romans 8:30
"Those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

2 Timothy 1:9
"Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."

Matthew 24:22-24
"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

Others....
Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:20,22,27; Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1, etc., etc.


Some Notes:


1. This is about JUSTIFICATION (in the narrow sense), not philosophy. This doctrine does NOT hold that everything is predetermined. Because of this, Lutherans often avoid the word "predestination" (a philosophical word) and use the term "Election" (although both are used interchangeably in Scripture). This doctrine has NOTHING to do with my having toast with peanut butter for breakfast this morning (I had "free will" there), it's NOT the Greek philosophy of determinism or fate.


2. Some confuse foreknowledge with predestination. They are not the same thing. Foreknowledge means to KNOW something before it happens. Predestination means to CAUSE it to happen. An illustration: I have foreknowledge that the sun will come up tomorrow. But I have nothing to do with it and do not cause it. They are two entirely different things.


3. As a Lutheran, I believe that there is mystery in soteriology. The exact interplay of faith and grace, the exact dynamics in HOW God saves us is simply not completely defined in Scripture - and thus we leave it as mystery. The bottom line is this: GOD is the Savior, not us. And we are justified by God's grace in Christ through our faith, which is the gift of God. THAT we affirm with passion! BTW, Lutherans tend to define "grace" here in a typically Protestant rather than Catholic manner, as God's undeserved, unmerited love, mercy and blessing, as getting what we don't deserve or earn; we don't define it as a "juice" God imputes in us that makes us able to do what we would not otherwise.


4. The doctrine of Predestination/Election applies to the granting of faith. It does NOT apply to the Cross but to faith. It has to do with who is given faith, not for whom Christ died. God predestines who will be granted the divine gift of faith, not whom God will love or for whom Christ will die. More on the difference between Lutheran and Calvinist ideas here: Why Lutheran Predestination isn't Calvinist Predestination | Mathew Block


5. There are two purposes/functions of this teaching.

A. Lutherans understand "predestination" (election) as GOSPEL. For Lutherans, whether something is Law or Gospel is key to understanding it, and we see this as Gospel. It is meant to comfort and assure BELIEVERS; it is not meant to be a 'terror of the conscience.' Let me use this illustration (however flawed). I was "born" by C-section because I had a severe (and potentially fatal) heart problem that needed immediate surgery; for sometime after my birth (and before my second surgery), I was quite limited in size and activities. Anyway, I SO VIVIDLY recall that when I was a little boy, I LOVED when my mother would tell me about before I was born. She told me how very much she loved me and how she prayed constantly for me. She told me how Dad traded in his beloved sports car for a station wagon, and gave up his office at home so it could be converted into a nursery for me (remember - the chances of me living were poor). They told me that the day of my birth and first surgery, my bother and sister both prayed out loud for me (I'd remember that when I had a fight with them!). And many friends, relatives and people from the church were at the hospital (some distance away since I was born at a children's teaching hospital affiliated with a university). Our pastor was there. Mom stressed to me how much I was loved EVEN BEFORE I WAS BORN. How much Mom and Dad wanted me, how much they did for me, the sacrifices they made for me. And they didn't know I would be such a smart, great, incredibly handsome guy. They loved me BEFORE I did ANYTHING. Now, here's the meaning of that for me: I felt comforted, assured. I KNEW they loved me. They'd get mad at me. Dad would sometimes discipline me, I had some ( now embarrassing) fights with my Mom. BUT I knew they loved me - unconditionally, not because of who I am or am not, but because they have this incredible ability to love. And nothing would change that, nothing would separate me from that. And they would sacrifice for me - and they did. I'd ask my Mom to tell me about before I was born - and she'd go over all that. Again and again. It's good to know.

B. It underlines SOLI DEO GLORIA, that justification (narrow) is GOD'S work and gift, not a reward for dead, unregenerate, atheistic, enemies of God adequately jumping though a series of hoops. Since the key is before we were born, obviously it's not based in our works but God's heart.


6. The doctrine of election not only places all our confidence, hope, comfort and courage in GOD (see point #5 above) but it also takes the pride and burden off of us. We are not the Savior, God is. The doctrine of election builds humility, as well as hope and comfort. God's love and gifts flow from His heart, not our merits. This teaching causes humility and confidence.


7. It is (perhaps) logical to conclude that since God only gives faith to SOME, ergo He desires all others to fry in hell. If not by actively CAUSING such then by simply "passing over" them. Logical, perhaps, but very unbiblical. The Bible says that Jesus came to ALL, that He died for ALL, that God desires ALL to be saved. So while this point (made by a few latter-day hyper Calvinists) makes some sense, it flat out contradicts Scripture... and it turns a doctrine of great comfort into a horrible terror, changes God from loving to a monster. Again, we have mystery here: God's grace is universal.... God desires all to be saved... Jesus died for all.... God gives faith to some. In the opinion of historic, orthodox Christianity, it is best to leave this where Scripture does and to accept we just don't understand how this cranks out in practice RATHER THAN impose teachings that directly contradict Scripture (the definition of heresy).



Blessings!


Josiah



.

 

[Broadway]

I did not say 'God is not love'.

If God so loved this WORLD, which includes all human beings, He would not have died for that world. If God by decree condemns most of humanity to hell, is that love?

No. God provided salvation for all. He doesn't save all.

If God did not save the world, then He cannot provide individuals salvation either. Heaven and hell would not even exist outside of Christ's reconciliation of the world. That includes every human being. All men will be raised in the last day, immortal and incorruptible to stand in judgement before Christ and will either be awared heaven or hell, determined by one's free choice.

Adam could do nothing to bring God's creation back to Him other than to fall.

Before the fall, Adam's purpose was to work with God in bringing the world as a living sacrifice to God. But Adam, having been seduced by Eve disobeyed the divine commandment and suffered death. Death to the human race and the world.

I am interested in the question I asked you earlier. I said God did not reverse the fall of Adam because we who are saved will forever be the product of fallen humanity. We will forever be saved sinners. Does that bother you?

You may believe that God did not reverse the consequences of Adam, but the Bible differs with your view. If He did not reverse the consequences of the fall you could not speak of being saved, since all humans and lt he world would be dissolved by death with no future existence.
His Incarnation and resurrection, also called the salvation, reconciliation of the world provided for an eternity, and made possible both heaven and hell.

 

[Josiah]

@Broadway

Throughout this discussion, you've TRIED to prove the doctrine of Election is wrong by persistently changing the subject. You've TRIED to say that Election is wrong because "Once Saved, Always Saved" is wrong. They are two entirely different teachings. You've TRIED to say that Election is wrong because Limited Atonement is wrong. They are two entirely different teachings.

I agree with you that OSAS and Limited Atonement are wrong. Those are unique teachings invented by a few hyper-Calvinists about 500 years ago. Non-Calvinvists disagree with these views (indeed, most Calvinists do, too). But those wrong views are not Election. And just because they are wrong has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Election being wrong. Nothing.

See post 21.



.

 

[Broadway]

@Broadway


What you state is an aspect of Pelagianism.... even worse than the heresy of synergism. Your view that the DEAD, unregenerate, faithless, Godless, atheistic enemy of God must (AND CAN) give spiritual life, faith and salvation to his own DEAD self - and this action is the cause of his salvation.

Nothing I stated even resembles Pelagianism. Rom 1:18-24 clearly states that all men have been given the ability to respond to God. God gives a measure of faith to all men. God calls all men to repentance therefore man is fully capable of responding to God. God expects it and provides consequences for either choice man makes.
God does not judge Himself in whether He elects someone or assigns someone to damnation. You, as a believer have the very same choice that Adam had. You can either accept to work with God, or reject His love and mercy. It is heaven or hell. Each human being determines his eternal state.

Yes, we must respond to Christ's work by faith. Where you disagree with Scripture is your insistence that the DEAD godless atheist does this by for for self ... and this good work that HE does is what saves. Scripture nowhere states that, indeed, Scripture states the opposite: that faith is the work of GOD, not of the DEAD atheist fallen man for himself. You got one thing correct, Faith is the work of God. He gives a measure to every human being, so that He can be just in meting out judgement. You seem to have fallen for the heresy of total depravity. It might fit in the Calvinistic theory but it is not scriptural.

 

[Broadway]

@Broadway

Predestination/Election


Some Scriptures:

1 Peter 1:1-3
"To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead"

Ephesians 1:3-7
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

2 Thessalonians 2:13
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

Acts 13:48
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to believe."

Romans 8:30
"Those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

2 Timothy 1:9
"Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."

Matthew 24:22-24
"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

Others....
Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:20,22,27; Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1, etc., etc.


Some Notes:


1. This is about JUSTIFICATION (in the narrow sense), not philosophy. This doctrine does NOT hold that everything is predetermined. Because of this, Lutherans often avoid the word "predestination" (a philosophical word) and use the term "Election" (although both are used interchangeably in Scripture). This doctrine has NOTHING to do with my having toast with peanut butter for breakfast this morning (I had "free will" there), it's NOT the Greek philosophy of determinism or fate.


2. Some confuse foreknowledge with predestination. They are not the same thing. Foreknowledge means to KNOW something before it happens. Predestination means to CAUSE it to happen. An illustration: I have foreknowledge that the sun will come up tomorrow. But I have nothing to do with it and do not cause it. They are two entirely different things.


3. As a Lutheran, I believe that there is mystery in soteriology. The exact interplay of faith and grace, the exact dynamics in HOW God saves us is simply not completely defined in Scripture - and thus we leave it as mystery. The bottom line is this: GOD is the Savior, not us. And we are justified by God's grace in Christ through our faith, which is the gift of God. THAT we affirm with passion! BTW, Lutherans tend to define "grace" here in a typically Protestant rather than Catholic manner, as God's undeserved, unmerited love, mercy and blessing, as getting what we don't deserve or earn; we don't define it as a "juice" God imputes in us that makes us able to do what we would not otherwise.


4. The doctrine of Predestination/Election applies to the granting of faith. It does NOT apply to the Cross but to faith. It has to do with who is given faith, not for whom Christ died. God predestines who will be granted the divine gift of faith, not whom God will love or for whom Christ will die. More on the difference between Lutheran and Calvinist ideas here: Why Lutheran Predestination isn't Calvinist Predestination | Mathew Block


5. There are two purposes/functions of this teaching.

A. Lutherans understand "predestination" (election) as GOSPEL. For Lutherans, whether something is Law or Gospel is key to understanding it, and we see this as Gospel. It is meant to comfort and assure BELIEVERS; it is not meant to be a 'terror of the conscience.' Let me use this illustration (however flawed). I was "born" by C-section because I had a severe (and potentially fatal) heart problem that needed immediate surgery; for sometime after my birth (and before my second surgery), I was quite limited in size and activities. Anyway, I SO VIVIDLY recall that when I was a little boy, I LOVED when my mother would tell me about before I was born. She told me how very much she loved me and how she prayed constantly for me. She told me how Dad traded in his beloved sports car for a station wagon, and gave up his office at home so it could be converted into a nursery for me (remember - the chances of me living were poor). They told me that the day of my birth and first surgery, my bother and sister both prayed out loud for me (I'd remember that when I had a fight with them!). And many friends, relatives and people from the church were at the hospital (some distance away since I was born at a children's teaching hospital affiliated with a university). Our pastor was there. Mom stressed to me how much I was loved EVEN BEFORE I WAS BORN. How much Mom and Dad wanted me, how much they did for me, the sacrifices they made for me. And they didn't know I would be such a smart, great, incredibly handsome guy. They loved me BEFORE I did ANYTHING. Now, here's the meaning of that for me: I felt comforted, assured. I KNEW they loved me. They'd get mad at me. Dad would sometimes discipline me, I had some ( now embarrassing) fights with my Mom. BUT I knew they loved me - unconditionally, not because of who I am or am not, but because they have this incredible ability to love. And nothing would change that, nothing would separate me from that. And they would sacrifice for me - and they did. I'd ask my Mom to tell me about before I was born - and she'd go over all that. Again and again. It's good to know.

B. It underlines SOLI DEO GLORIA, that justification (narrow) is GOD'S work and gift, not a reward for dead, unregenerate, atheistic, enemies of God adequately jumping though a series of hoops. Since the key is before we were born, obviously it's not based in our works but God's heart.


6. The doctrine of election not only places all our confidence, hope, comfort and courage in GOD (see point #5 above) but it also takes the pride and burden off of us. We are not the Savior, God is. The doctrine of election builds humility, as well as hope and comfort. God's love and gifts flow from His heart, not our merits. This teaching causes humility and confidence.


7. It is (perhaps) logical to conclude that since God only gives faith to SOME, ergo He desires all others to fry in hell. If not by actively CAUSING such then by simply "passing over" them. Logical, perhaps, but very unbiblical. The Bible says that Jesus came to ALL, that He died for ALL, that God desires ALL to be saved. So while this point (made by a few latter-day hyper Calvinists) makes some sense, it flat out contradicts Scripture... and it turns a doctrine of great comfort into a horrible terror, changes God from loving to a monster. Again, we have mystery here: God's grace is universal.... God desires all to be saved... Jesus died for all.... God gives faith to some. In the opinion of historic, orthodox Christianity, it is best to leave this where Scripture does and to accept we just don't understand how this cranks out in practice RATHER THAN impose teachings that directly contradict Scripture (the definition of heresy).



Blessings!


Josiah



.

I didn't know that Lutherans had a different form of predestination and election.
But in either case what you explain above fits supposed theory but has never been the understanding of
Scripture. You can believe what you will, but historically predestination was declared a heresy by the Orthodox Church by the Synod of Jerusalem in 1572 in the Confession of Dositheus

 

[Broadway]

@Broadway

Throughout this discussion, you've TRIED to prove the doctrine of Election is wrong by persistently changing the subject. You've TRIED to say that Election is wrong because "Once Saved, Always Saved" is wrong. They are two entirely different teachings. You've TRIED to say that Election is wrong because Limited Atonement is wrong. They are two entirely different teachings.

Scripturally and historically it is a false teaching. No where in scripture does God, by decree predestin some men to individual salvation. You are also correct that the phrase "once saved, always saved" is also unscriptural. An individual believer in NEVER portrayed as being 'saved" in the past tense during the lifetime of a believer. Our individual life of faithfulness is a journey, not a done deal. Man has free will whether you agree with it or not. A believer can quench the Holy Spirit, he can deny Christ, he can lose his way. There are a host of texts that declare this very clearly.

I agree with you that OSAS and Limited Atonement are wrong. Those are unique teachings invented by a few hyper-Calvinists about 500 years ago. Non-Calvinvists disagree with these views (indeed, most Calvinists do, too). But those wrong views are not Election. And just because they are wrong has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Election being wrong. Nothing.

You are correct that all three are distinct teachings of Calvinism. What I know of Calvinism is that it is a very well logically organized theory in so much as one cannot pick and choose which of the five they might agree with. You are either a Calvinist, all five points, or you are not. They logically follow each other. To separate election from Calvinism does not make it scripturally correct. There are five direct elections in scripture and none of them deal with designation of a person to salvation. They all point to a specific service. The five are Christ, St Paul, Israel, the Apostles and the Church.

 

[Josiah]

Rom 1:18-24 clearly states that all men have been given the ability to respond to God.

I note that you didn't quote those verses. The reason is NOWHERE does Paul state that. We all know that.

But Scripture does state that no one can even say "Jesus is Lord" unless the Holy Spirit enables that. And that faith is the gift of God.

And...

1 Peter 1:1-3
"To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead"

Ephesians 1:3-7
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

2 Thessalonians 2:13
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

Acts 13:48
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to believe."

God gives a measure of faith to all men.

Quote the Scripture(s) that states. "God gives faith to all men."

And again, you are changing the subject. Your view is that God does not give faith to the DEAD but rather that the DEAD gives life, faith and salvation to self. Each dead, unregenerate, faithless, godless, fallen atheist gives SELF spiritual life, faith and salvation. Which is it? God GIVES it to the dead, the unsaved, the faithless OR the dead, unsaved, godless gives it to self?



.

 

[Broadway]

I note that you didn't quote those verses. The reason is NOWHERE does Paul state that. We all know that.

If I quoted them now, would that actually help? The fact is The wrath of God is against all ungodliness against those THAT SUPPRESS THE TRUTH. That what is known of God is manifest among them because God manifested it to them. Since the creation His attributes are clearly shown being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that THEY are without excuse.
Because, ALTHOUGH THEY KNEW GOD, THEY DID NOT GLORIFY HIM AS GOD.
It cannot be more clear. Man is gifted with the knowledge of God. Man actually needs to suppress that TRUTH and follow the dictates of his own heart.

But Scripture does state that no one can even say "Jesus is Lord" unless the Holy Spirit enables that. And that faith is the gift of God.

However, the Holy Spirit is present in this world. He works diligently calling all men to repentance Acts 17:30. Rom 2:4 makes it clear that God leads man to repentance. So that Paul can say in vs5-11 that if one works with God eternal life and those that reject him damnation. All men will give account of his deeds in the judgement.
II Tim 2:24-26 also lays the responsibility of believing, to follow the truth upon each individual. II Peter 3:9 also puts the responsiblity on each human being as He desires all to come to repentance.

And...

1 Peter 1:1-3
"To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead"

obviously, election is not present. If God knows (foreknowledge) He does not need to elect. But Paul is addressing the saints, (elect) in these varis places. One becomes elect by regeneration of the Holy Spirit through baptism to be born again to a living hope, that is, personal salvation through faith and faithfulness.

Ephesians 1:3-7
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

The key here is the phrase chose us IN Him. It does not say He chose us or anyone to be IN Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

Where is election here. What it says God chose believers to be saved through sanctification of the Spirit (baptism) and belief in the truth.

Acts 13:48
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to believe."




Quote the Scripture(s) that states. "God gives faith to all men." Rom 12:3, follows logically from Rom1:18-24.

And again, you are changing the subject. Your view is that God does not give faith to the DEAD but rather that the DEAD gives life, faith and salvation to self. Each dead, unregenerate, faithless, godless, fallen atheist gives SELF spiritual life, faith and salvation. Which is it? God GIVES it to the dead, the unsaved, the faithless OR the dead, unsaved, godless gives it to self?

You can believe you own words but they are not remotely what I stated or what scripture states. God gives a measure of faith to all men.
Every man has the gifts necessary to believe. God gives him all things thereby man has not excuse for not believing in Him. Very simple and logical. God calls and man responds. It is either acceptance or rejection and those decisions can change back and forth during the life of a person.

.

 

[Albion]

One becomes elect by regeneration of the Holy Spirit through baptism to be born again to a living hope, that is, personal salvation through faith and faithfulness.

The key here is the phrase chose us IN Him. It does not say He chose us or anyone to be IN Christ.

Where is election here. What it says God chose believers to be saved through sanctification of the Spirit (baptism) and belief in the truth.

You can believe you own words but they are not remotely what I stated or what scripture states. God gives a measure of faith to all men.
Every man has the gifts necessary to believe. God gives him all things thereby man has not excuse for not believing in Him. Very simple and logical. God calls and man responds. It is either acceptance or rejection and those decisions can change back and forth during the life of a person.

John 6:37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.”

Acts of the Apostles 13:48 “When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”

These ^ verses certainly do not support your contention about election not being selective.

 

[Broadway]

John 6:37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.”

Since all things were given to Christ, Col 1:16-20 and since all men are drawn to Christ John 12:32. Christ does no6t cast anyone away. It man by his free will that decides to reject Him outright, or as some point fall away by his own choice.
Lets stay in John 6 and go to verse 39, all that was given to me I will lose nothing and will raise them up in the last day. He is referencing His Incarnation, death and resurrection. We know from Col 1:20 that all things were given to Christ. Christ assumed our human nature and became consubstantial with us, and since man came from God's creation the world in included in this all things. Christ will raise all the dead in the last day I Cor 15:53-54.
Now look at vs 40, Of all those Christ saved from death and sin by His death and resurrection those that believe will be raised and given everylasting life. Nothing about election, predestination of only some of humanity.

Acts of the Apostles 13:48 “When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”

These ^ verses certainly do not support your contention about election not being selective.

That is your opinion but the meaning of that verse corresponds to others we have used in that God's foreknowledged knows who will believe.
God had told the Apostles, Peter in particular that the Gentiles were also of the promise not just Jews. The fact that some Gentiles believed was evidence of God's promise that they are included. This is not some reference to election/predestination of Calvin's theory. The whole of scripture shows that only those who see and believe will be saved, not some by election.

 

[Albion]

Since all things were given to Christ, Col 1:16-20 and since all men are drawn to Christ John 12:32. Christ does no6t cast anyone away. It man by his free will that decides to reject Him outright, or as some point fall away by his own choice.

Your opinion is your opinion, of course, but most Bible commentators disagree with it. As Gill, for one, explains that passage from John--"I will draw all men to me; which is not to be understood of the concourse of people about him, when on the cross, some for him, and others against him, some to bewail him, and others to reproach him; but rather of the gathering of the elect to him, and in him...and this is to be understood not of every individual of human nature; for all are not drawn to Christ, or enabled to come to him, and believe in him. There were many of the Jews who would not and did not come to him for life; and who instead of being drawn to him in this sense, when lifted up on the cross, vilified and reproached him...."

 

[Josiah]

If I quoted them now, would that actually help?

@Broadway


You can't. Thus, you don't.



You stated:

Rom 1:18-24 clearly states that all men have been given the ability to respond to God.

I noted that you didn't quote that. The reason is NOWHERE does Paul state that. We all know that.

But Scripture does state that no one can even say "Jesus is Lord" unless the Holy Spirit enables that. And that faith is the gift of God.

And...

1 Peter 1:1-3
"To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead"

Ephesians 1:3-7
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

2 Thessalonians 2:13
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

Acts 13:48
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to believe."

Because, ALTHOUGH THEY KNEW GOD, THEY DID NOT GLORIFY HIM AS GOD.
It cannot be more clear. Man is gifted with the knowledge of God.

That has nothing to do with spiritual life or faith or justification. The Devil knows about God.

Friend, you keep trying to change the subject. Just because the Devil KNOWS about God does not mean ergo the devil has saving faith.

Rom 2:4 makes it clear that God leads man to repentance.

Perhaps. What it does not say is your point: That the DEAD, unregenerate, fallen, sinful, atheistic, godless enemy of God gives SELF spiritual life, saving faith, justification/salvation... it's HIS doing, not God's.

As an Eastern Orthodox, you might be familiar with the Nicene Creed where we confess that the Holy Spirit is the "lord" and "giver" of life. Not that fallen, sinful, godless, atheistic, DEAD man is the lord and giver of life.

II Tim 2:24-26 also lays the responsibility of believing, to follow the truth upon each individual.

No. It does not.

1. This is speaking of "the servant of the Lord" - one who believes, NOT of the dead, spiritually lifeless, unsaved, godless, fallen atheist. The context here is what BELIEVERS are called to do, not what the DEAD are able to do.

2. It says BELIEVERS are able to do this, "after being captured BY HIM to do His will." Not, "the dead being the lord and giver of life" and "the unsaved being able to give salvation to self."

But Paul is addressing the saints, (elect) in these varis places. One becomes elect by regeneration of the Holy Spirit through baptism to be born again to a living hope, that is, personal salvation through faith

Amen! Correct. There goes your whole point.

The Scriptures you quote either have nothing to do with the issue at hand OR they are addressed to the living, saved, believers. They don't support your claim that the DEAD also have faith, that the DEAD are the lord and giver of life to self.

Where is election

Among other places.... (Including the Nicene Creed)


1 Peter 1:1-3
"To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead"

Ephesians 1:3-7
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

2 Thessalonians 2:13
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

Acts 13:48
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to believe."

Romans 8:30
"Those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

2 Timothy 1:9
"Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."

Matthew 24:22-24
"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

Others....
Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:20,22,27; Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.




.

God gives a measure of faith to all men.

No. He gives a measure of KNOWLEDGE. You seem to confuse the two so that the devil is saved because he has KNOWLEDGE about God.

Every man has the gifts necessary to believe.

Scripture, please.

Actually, the Bible says that NO ONE IS CAPABLE of believing.

The Bible says that faith is "the gift of God."

The Creed states that the Holy Spirit is the giver of faith, not the DEAD fallen atheistic godless enemy of God.

If God so loved this WORLD, which includes all human beings, He would not have died for that world.

He did. Just as the Bible states. But again, yet again, you are changing the subject. Yes, a few hyper-Calvinists teach Limited Atonement which all other Christians reject (as I do, too) . But Limited Atonement and Predestination are two entirely different doctrines... you keep confusing doctrines.... you seem to be suggesting that because some hyper-Calvinists are wrong about some OTHER thing, ergo they MUST be wrong about everything. Not so.




.

 

[Lees]

If God so loved this WORLD, which includes all human beings, He would not have died for that world. If God by decree condemns most of humanity to hell, is that love?


If God did not save the world, then He cannot provide individuals salvation either. Heaven and hell would not even exist outside of Christ's reconciliation of the world. That includes every human being. All men will be raised in the last day, immortal and incorruptible to stand in judgement before Christ and will either be awared heaven or hell, determined by one's free choice.

Before the fall, Adam's purpose was to work with God in bringing the world as a living sacrifice to God. But Adam, having been seduced by Eve disobeyed the divine commandment and suffered death. Death to the human race and the world.

You may believe that God did not reverse the consequences of Adam, but the Bible differs with your view. If He did not reverse the consequences of the fall you could not speak of being saved, since all humans and lt he world would be dissolved by death with no future existence.
His Incarnation and resurrection, also called the salvation, reconciliation of the world provided for an eternity, and made possible both heaven and hell.

The 'world' there in (John 3:16) is the 'world order'. It doesn't mean God loves every human being. We are expressly told in (Rom. 9:11-13) that He does not. Which is a quote from (Mal. 1:2-3)

If 'world' in (John 3:16) means 'all human beings', then we who are believers are commanded to not love all human beings. (1 John 2:15) So, no, God doesn't love everybody. God the Father loved the world order and so sent His son to save many out of their fallen condition to populate a new world order not affected by sin and chaos.

Just as believers are not to love the world, neither does Christ love the world. (John 17:6-9) Christ loves the Church, not the world. (Eph. 5:25)

Adam was not seduced by Eve. Adam ate knowing exactly what he was doing. (1 Tim. 2:14) And, yes, it brought death into the world.

God did not reverse the fall of Adam. The fall continues. And throughout eternity it will exist in those who are in hell. God certainly has delivered many out of the fall, saving His people. And for eternity, we who are believers will always be 'saved sinners'. Do you believe that? Does that bother you?

Lees

 

[Broadway]

As an Eastern Orthodox, you might be familiar with the Nicene Creed where we confess that the Holy Spirit is the "lord" and "giver" of life. Not that fallen, sinful, godless, atheistic, DEAD man is the lord and giver of life. Maybe you should do a study of the Nicene Creed. The life that the Creed is referencing is the life all creation recieved by His resurrection. Read I Cor 15:12-22 and you might have a much better understanding of what Christ accomplished vs man's respponse to that great gift of mercy.

Romans 8:30
"Those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

However Rom 8:26 states that all things work together to those that love God who are THE CALLED, MEANING THE CHURCH.
Vs 29 For whom He foreknew, (who did He foreknew, those that believe) He predestined them to be conformed to His Image. That is what we are doing as believers, working with God to be conformed to His perfect Image. Not that we will attain it, but that is the goal.

2 Timothy 1:9
"Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."

again, it is addressing what Christ did by His death and resusrrection. He saved, past tense, all men from death. Because we have been saved, He calls us to a holy calling, not because of our works, (He did the work to save us from death and sin) "
We need to perform the works of faith, read James 2:22-26. I Peter 1:3-5. He gives all things to those IN Christ which He foreknew. It does not say to be in Christ.

Matthew 24:22-24
"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

The phrase, "would be saved" is addressing believers who are on this earth in those last days. It again does not say the saved. Being saved is in the future. as I Pet 1:3-5 clearly points out. The words "THE ELECT" IS ADDRESSING THE CHURCH, not individual believers.

Others....
Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:20,22,27; Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.

None of these address election/predesdination. If you think so, give your explanation.

No. He gives a measure of KNOWLEDGE. You seem to confuse the two so that the devil is saved because he has KNOWLEDGE about God.

He gives knowledge to all men as explained in Rom 1:18-24 as I addressed earlier. Rom 12:3 a measure of faith is given to all men.

Scripture, please.

Actually, the Bible says that NO ONE IS CAPABLE of believing.

My assumption you are referencing Rom 3:9 where Paul is quoting from the Psalms 14:1-3, 53:1-3, Ps 5:9, Ps 140:3, Ps 10:7, Prov 1:16. Paul is using these to make a point which is all men are unfaithful, for all of sinned and fall short of the glory of God. BUT BEING JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE (DEATH AND RESURRECTON) THROUGH THE REDEMPTION THAT IS IN CHRIST JESUS. We are not justified by the law, but by faith in Christ.

The Bible says that faith is "the gift of God."

It sure is, I can agree with you on this.

 

[Broadway]

Your opinion is your opinion, of course, but most Bible commentators disagree with it. As Gill, for one, explains that passage from John--"I will draw all men to me; which is not to be understood of the concourse of people about him, when on the cross, some for him, and others against him, some to bewail him, and others to reproach him; but rather of the gathering of the elect to him, and in him...and this is to be understood not of every individual of human nature; for all are not drawn to Christ, or enabled to come to him, and believe in him. There were many of the Jews who would not and did not come to him for life; and who instead of being drawn to him in this sense, when lifted up on the cross, vilified and reproached him...."

Really, how would you expect a Calvinist theologian to explain it. Not only quite contrived but disagrees with most of scripture.

 

[Broadway]

The 'world' there in (John 3:16) is the 'world order'. It doesn't mean God loves every human being. We are expressly told in (Rom. 9:11-13) that He does not. Which is a quote from (Mal. 1:2-3)

Well, world order is everything God created including things in heaven and on earth. So God does not love all human beings who are created in His Image.
God gave all things to Christ, Col 1:20, Christ died for sinners. Are unbelievers not sinners? Rom 5:18-19

If 'world' in (John 3:16) means 'all human beings', then we who are believers are commanded to not love all human beings. (1 John 2:15) So, no, God doesn't love everybody. God the Father loved the world order and so sent His son to save many out of their fallen condition to populate a new world order not affected by sin and chaos.

So in your theology hell does not exist? If Christ did not give life to the world, all men, then those who you place as unbelievers cease to exist upon death since they would still be under the condemnation of Adam. You might want to explain how Christ who took on our human nature was able to raise from the dead ONLY those that believe. What kind of human nature do unbelievers have that Christ did not assume. I didn't know there are two forms of human natures.

Just as believers are not to love the world, neither does Christ love the world. (John 17:6-9) Christ loves the Church, not the world. (Eph. 5:25)

unfortunately for your theology, John 17 is Christ's pastoral prayer. It is broken up into four section. He prays for Himself vs 1-5; He prays for the Apostles vs 6-19; He prays for the Church vs 20-23; and for the world, or all others vs 24-26.
Besides the most known text of the Bible John 3:16 disagrees with you. The Greek word, if you have not checked is cosmos. It means very specifically the world. I would think that the early Church which spoke exclusively Greek for several hundred years would understand their own language.

Adam was not seduced by Eve. Adam ate knowing exactly what he was doing. (1 Tim. 2:14) And, yes, it brought death into the world.

If Eve knew what she was doing, would she have sinned and thus not lead Adam astray as well.?

God did not reverse the fall of Adam. The fall continues. And throughout eternity it will exist in those who are in hell. God certainly has delivered many out of the fall, saving His people. And for eternity, we who are believers will always be 'saved sinners'. Do you believe that? Does that bother you?

Lees

It bothers me that you have such a misguided understanding of the fall and the redemption of the world by Christ's Incarnation. You totally bypass the Incarnation. You are correct that this fallen world is still in existence and will only be freed when Christ comes again. But we know that death has been defeated, and no one will perish, that is be nonexistant. That is what the death of Gen 3:19 states. We all would return to dust permanently, would die as animals and everything else in this world. Which is why He Saved the world, so that in the end He could make all things new again. It does not say that He will make new things.
Do you celebrate easter? That is all about Christ's resurrection of our human natures from death. You should carefully read I Cor 15:12-22. It states categorically that if Christ arose from the dead then all will be raised, If Christ did not rise from the dead, none would be saved. The summation of the fall and the redemption from the fall, is summed up in two verses 21-22.

 

[Lees]

Well, world order is everything God created including things in heaven and on earth. So God does not love all human beings who are created in His Image.
God gave all things to Christ, Col 1:20, Christ died for sinners. Are unbelievers not sinners? Rom 5:18-19

So in your theology hell does not exist? If Christ did not give life to the world, all men, then those who you place as unbelievers cease to exist upon death since they would still be under the condemnation of Adam. You might want to explain how Christ who took on our human nature was able to raise from the dead ONLY those that believe. What kind of human nature do unbelievers have that Christ did not assume. I didn't know there are two forms of human natures.

unfortunately for your theology, John 17 is Christ's pastoral prayer. It is broken up into four section. He prays for Himself vs 1-5; He prays for the Apostles vs 6-19; He prays for the Church vs 20-23; and for the world, or all others vs 24-26.
Besides the most known text of the Bible John 3:16 disagrees with you. The Greek word, if you have not checked is cosmos. It means very specifically the world. I would think that the early Church which spoke exclusively Greek for several hundred years would understand their own language.

If Eve knew what she was doing, would she have sinned and thus not lead Adam astray as well.?

It bothers me that you have such a misguided understanding of the fall and the redemption of the world by Christ's Incarnation. You totally bypass the Incarnation. You are correct that this fallen world is still in existence and will only be freed when Christ comes again. But we know that death has been defeated, and no one will perish, that is be nonexistant. That is what the death of Gen 3:19 states. We all would return to dust permanently, would die as animals and everything else in this world. Which is why He Saved the world, so that in the end He could make all things new again. It does not say that He will make new things.
Do you celebrate easter? That is all about Christ's resurrection of our human natures from death. You should carefully read I Cor 15:12-22. It states categorically that if Christ arose from the dead then all will be raised, If Christ did not rise from the dead, none would be saved. The summation of the fall and the redemption from the fall, is summed up in two verses 21-22.

Point is 'KOSMOS' speaks to world order. Not all human beings. Why ask me when I just gave you the Scripture? (Rom. 9:11-13) (Mal. 1:2-3) Do you agree with these Scriptures? I never said Christ did not die for all. I said He did die for all. But all are not saved. Yes, unbelievers are sinners. You failed to comment on (John 3:16) and (1 John 2:15). If 'world' means all human beings, as you say, then we as believers are to not love all human beings.

No, I never said hell does not exist. I said it does. Christ is the 'Light' of the world. The world is at present in darkness and chaos, whose ruler is Satan, the ruler and prince of this world. (John 12:31), (John 14:30), (John 16:11), (Eph. 2:2) The rest of what you said in your 2nd paragraph has no bearing on what I said.

No, in Christ's prayer in (John 17) Christ did not pray for the world. He says so Himself. (John 17:9) "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." And (John 17:24-26) says nothing about Christ praying for the world. It draws clear distinction between the world and those who are believers in the world.

KOSMOS means world order. 1. KOSMOS, primarily order, arrangement, ornament, adornment....(Vines Expository Dictionary Of New Testament Words, W.E. Vine, M.A. Riverside Book and Bible House, Iowa Falls, Iowa, 50126, p. 1256)

I didn't say Eve knew what she was doing. I said Adam knew what he was doing. (1 Tim. 2:14) Eve was deceived. Adam was not. Adam was not seduced as you claim.

I don't bypass the Incarnation. And of course I recognize the importance of the Resurrection of Christ. And the Resurrection pertains to our bodies, not our human nature. And you still didn't answer my questions. Do you believe that we believers will be throughout all eternity 'saved sinners'? And does that bother you?

Lees

 

[Josiah]

None of these address election/predesdination. If you think so, give your explanation.

@Broadway


I think they do. Try reading them:

For example....

1 Peter 1:1-3
"To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." Not self has caused self.

Ephesians 1:3-7
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

2 Thessalonians 2:13
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

Acts 13:48
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to believe."

Romans 8:30
"Those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

2 Timothy 1:9
"Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."

Matthew 24:22-24
"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."


Then there is the Nicene Creed which of course the Orthodox accept, which specifically states that the Holy Spirit is the giver of life (spiritual life)... it does NOT state that actually the Holy Spirit gives nothing and has nothing to do with spiritual life, faith and salvation but rather credit and praise the DEAD, fallen, godless, atheistic enemy of God who create and then gave all this to self.


Note: "Elect" "predestined" "chosen" "appointed." Even before the person was born.

Note: "GAVE" God GAVE.

And note that you've not offered any Scripture that states that actually God does not give or do anything to cause the DEAD to live, to have faith, to saved but each DEAD, unbelieving, godless, fallen, atheistic, enemy of God creates and then gives to self spiritual life, faith and salvation. No verses that state that.

He gives knowledge to all men as explained in Rom 1:18-24

KNOWLEDGE, not faith. Knowledge is not faith. Knowledge does not save. The devil has knowledge about God and I'm guessing you don't believe that the devil is thus saved.

Rom 12:3 a measure of faith is given to all men.

Romans 12:1 specifically states Paul is writing this to CHRISTIANS, not "all men."

And you missed that it says GOD gives this faith, not each DEAD, spiritually lifeless, godless, fallen, person gives it to SELF as you suggest; that each such DEAD person has the ability to create spiritual life and faith and give it to self - or not. Who needs God when the dead have themselves to create and give all this to self?




.

 

[Albion]

Since all things were given to Christ, Col 1:16-20 and since all men are drawn to Christ John 12:32. Christ does no6t cast anyone away.

That again is a non-sequitur. All men being drawn to Christ does not mean that all who are drawn will become and remain disciples. For that, it takes saving Faith.

Lets stay in John 6 and go to verse 39, all that was given to me I will lose nothing and will raise them up in the last day. He is referencing His Incarnation, death and resurrection.

He is referencing those whom the Father gave him out of all of mankind. Had there been no such selection process on the part of the Father, every person would automatically be saved, thanks to the Crucifixion and Resurrection. The Bible certainly does not teach this, and it's quite obvious that it does not.

 

[Broadway]

Point is 'KOSMOS' speaks to world order. Not all human beings. Why ask me when I just gave you the Scripture? (Rom. 9:11-13) (Mal. 1:2-3) Do you agree with these Scriptures? I never said Christ did not die for all. I said He did die for all. But all are not saved. Yes, unbelievers are sinners. You failed to comment on (John 3:16) and (1 John 2:15). If 'world' means all human beings, as you say, then we as believers are to not love all human beings.

I agree with scripture but not your interpretation. Because you do not understand the meaning of the Incarnation your view has these monster contradictions. You say that He died for all sinners, yet you don't believe that His death and resurrection saved the world from death and sin. As your idea that believers are not to love unbelievers. Christ commanded us to pray for our enemies. How do you evangelize if you hate the people you are addressing. It is amazing how contorted your theology becomes regarding I John 2:16, You seem to pick and choose verses that are not even in context of the subject to which we are speaking.

No, I never said hell does not exist. I said it does. Christ is the 'Light' of the world. The world is at present in darkness and chaos, whose ruler is Satan, the ruler and prince of this world. (John 12:31), (John 14:30), (John 16:11), (Eph. 2:2) The rest of what you said in your 2nd paragraph has no bearing on what I said.

So you say, but your theology explicitly denies it. You don't understand the Incarnation. You don't understand that Christ assumed our human nature. a nature that is consubstantial with every other human being including the world because we were created from the dust of the earth. That condemnation of death to man in Gen 3;19 is dust to dust. How can hell exist in your theology, actually even heaven because Christ did not raise our human natures to life. Read I Cor 15:12-22, 53-54. Hell and heaven exist ONLY BECAUSE CHRIST AROSE FROM THE GRAVE AND GAVE LIFE TO THE WORLD.
Your theology states that Christ was not Incarnated thus did not have our human nature, or He had our human nature but never arose from the Grave. Also read, Heb 2:14-17. It tells you Christ took on our human natures. For what purpose. To defeat Satan who has the power over death and sin.

No, in Christ's prayer in (John 17) Christ did not pray for the world. He says so Himself. (John 17:9) "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." And (John 17:24-26) says nothing about Christ praying for the world. It draws clear distinction between the world and those who are believers in the world.

Why would He need to pray for the physical world when, at that point it was already saved. He is praying for Himself in those verses and in the last three for all other people of this world. Why people? Because He saved all people from death and sin and now it is up to man to respond to His call for all men to repent. He desires all men, individual men to be saved. He does not need to pray for mankind, or man here because they have already been saved from death and sin.

KOSMOS means world order. 1. KOSMOS, primarily order, arrangement, ornament, adornment....(Vines Expository Dictionary Of New Testament Words, W.E. Vine, M.A. Riverside Book and Bible House, Iowa Falls, Iowa, 50126, p. 1256)

in other words the physical world.

I didn't say Eve knew what she was doing. I said Adam knew what he was doing. (1 Tim. 2:14) Eve was deceived. Adam was not. Adam was not seduced as you claim.

So if someone else convinces you to sin, you don't actually sin. It is the other person who sinned.

I don't bypass the Incarnation. And of course I recognize the importance of the Resurrection of Christ. And the Resurrection pertains to our bodies, not our human nature. And you still didn't answer my questions. Do you believe that we believers will be throughout all eternity 'saved sinners'? And does that bother you?

Lees

So you bypass the Incarnation by changing the words, therefore the actual meaning so it might fit your theology. It never says in scripture that Christ assumed our bodies. He assumed our nature.

Let me answer your question again so you might understand this time. All human beings were saved from death, thus all human beings will be raised in the last day immortal and incorruptible.
Now, Those individuals who believed, and were faithful to the end will inherit eternal life. Those that chose to deny Christ will suffer eternal damanation.