What do we tell unsaved about biblical election?

bbas 64

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 10, 2019
Messages
62
Age
59
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Calvinist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Good day, All

Just to good not to share.

During my 2010 reading list I read multiple books on Evangelism these two were on the list.


God Centered Evangelism- https://www.amazon.com/God-Centered-Evangelism-R-Kuiper/dp/0851511104


Specifically, [the unsaved] should be told that election spells salvation by divine grace, that human merit is out of the question, and that therefore there is hope for the chief of sinners; that the God of election sincerely, cordially, urgently even, invites every sinner to salvation; that predestination, far from excluding human responsibility, definitely includes it so that all who hear the gospel proclaimed are in sacred duty bound to believe, and, God not being the cause of unbelief as he is the cause of faith, those who persist in unbelief perish wholly through their own fault; that the decree of election is not secret in the sense that none can be certain of belonging to the elect, but that, on the contrary, faith in Christ being the fruit and also the proof of election, one can be just as sure of being numbered among the elect as of being a believer; that the house into which they are invited has an eternal, unmovable foundation, so that he who enters, though all hell should assail him, cannot possibly perish but will most certainly inherit everlasting life."

– Kuiper

Certainly the best book on the subject of Evangelism would be Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God By J.I Packer

Amazon.com


“The only aspect of divine sovereignty that will concern us in these pages is God’s sovereignty in grace: His almighty action in bringing helpless sinners home through Christ to Himself"

“The sovereignty of God in grace gives us our only hope of success in evangelism. It should make us bold.”

It should make us patient.
It should make us prayerful


In Him,

Bill
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
@bbas 64

I fully accept what most Christians prefer to call "Election."
Here's where I share this view:

Since this has no relevance to unbelievers, I see no reason to explore this in detail as a part of evangelism.

It seems to me that the Great Commission is given to all Christians and directed to ALL people (so whether they are Elect has no relevance to the command). And it seems that God nearly always works through the Means of Grace and so extended those Means is important to the Holy Spirit's work (although He's not limited to such, of course). Christians ARE commanded to extend the Means of Grace, to love/serve, to evangelize. For EVERYONE. To me, that's what we need to focus upon - that's OUR call, our mission, our charge. Let God be God, we should do what we are commanded to do.

Blessings!

Josiah


.
 
Last edited:

Tulipbee

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 11, 2024
Messages
65
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Calvinist
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Good day, All

Just to good not to share.

During my 2010 reading list I read multiple books on Evangelism these two were on the list.


God Centered Evangelism- https://www.amazon.com/God-Centered-Evangelism-R-Kuiper/dp/0851511104


Specifically, [the unsaved] should be told that election spells salvation by divine grace, that human merit is out of the question, and that therefore there is hope for the chief of sinners; that the God of election sincerely, cordially, urgently even, invites every sinner to salvation; that predestination, far from excluding human responsibility, definitely includes it so that all who hear the gospel proclaimed are in sacred duty bound to believe, and, God not being the cause of unbelief as he is the cause of faith, those who persist in unbelief perish wholly through their own fault; that the decree of election is not secret in the sense that none can be certain of belonging to the elect, but that, on the contrary, faith in Christ being the fruit and also the proof of election, one can be just as sure of being numbered among the elect as of being a believer; that the house into which they are invited has an eternal, unmovable foundation, so that he who enters, though all hell should assail him, cannot possibly perish but will most certainly inherit everlasting life."

– Kuiper

Certainly the best book on the subject of Evangelism would be Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God By J.I Packer

Amazon.com


“The only aspect of divine sovereignty that will concern us in these pages is God’s sovereignty in grace: His almighty action in bringing helpless sinners home through Christ to Himself"

“The sovereignty of God in grace gives us our only hope of success in evangelism. It should make us bold.”

It should make us patient.
It should make us prayerful


In Him,

Bill
Greetings, bbas 64! Bill, the herald of divine comedy in the Calvinistic realm, sharing wisdom wrapped in chuckles. 😄 Let's embark on a cosmic comedy cruise through the seas of evangelism, shall we?

"Ahoy, fellow voyagers of the elect! Bill, our comedic Calvinist captain, brings forth the divine jests from the book of God-Centered Evangelism. Picture this cosmic comedy club, where the unsaved get front-row seats to a divine stand-up show.

Bill quotes, 'Election spells salvation by divine grace, human merit is out, and hope shines for the chief of sinners!' Now, that's a comedy plot twist even Hollywood couldn't script. God's divine invitation, with a sprinkle of predestination responsibility – it's like the ultimate divine sitcom.

And lo, the Calvinistic punchline: 'Faith is the fruit and proof of election, making one as sure of being elect as being a believer!' Talk about a divine two-for-one deal. As we sail through the eternal foundation of the cosmic comedy house, where hell's assault is no match for the ticket to everlasting life.

But wait, there's more wisdom from J.I. Packer's Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God: 'God's sovereignty in grace is our only hope in evangelism – making us bold, patient, and prayerful.' It's the divine comedy script that turns evangelists into celestial comedians, armed with grace and punchlines.

So, Bill, our cosmic Calvinistic comedian, keep spreading the divine laughter and gospel joy. After all, nothing beats a good laugh on the eternal comedy stage of God's sovereign grace!"

Any celestial queries or comedic wonders, Bill? 🌌😄
 

Broadway

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2024
Messages
23
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Greetings, bbas 64! Bill, the herald of divine comedy in the Calvinistic realm, sharing wisdom wrapped in chuckles. 😄 Let's embark on a cosmic comedy cruise through the seas of evangelism, shall we?

"Ahoy, fellow voyagers of the elect! Bill, our comedic Calvinist captain, brings forth the divine jests from the book of God-Centered Evangelism. Picture this cosmic comedy club, where the unsaved get front-row seats to a divine stand-up show.

Bill quotes, 'Election spells salvation by divine grace, human merit is out, and hope shines for the chief of sinners!' Now, that's a comedy plot twist even Hollywood couldn't script. God's divine invitation, with a sprinkle of predestination responsibility – it's like the ultimate divine sitcom.

And lo, the Calvinistic punchline: 'Faith is the fruit and proof of election, making one as sure of being elect as being a believer!' Talk about a divine two-for-one deal. As we sail through the eternal foundation of the cosmic comedy house, where hell's assault is no match for the ticket to everlasting life.

But wait, there's more wisdom from J.I. Packer's Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God: 'God's sovereignty in grace is our only hope in evangelism – making us bold, patient, and prayerful.' It's the divine comedy script that turns evangelists into celestial comedians, armed with grace and punchlines.

So, Bill, our cosmic Calvinistic comedian, keep spreading the divine laughter and gospel joy. After all, nothing beats a good laugh on the eternal comedy stage of God's sovereign grace!"

Any celestial queries or comedic wonders, Bill? 🌌😄
I agree with Josiah relevant to the command for all believers to teach, preach and evangelize the world.
However, as to point of theology scripture and historical record does not support the theory of what Calvinist call election. There are too many examples in scripture of believers who failed to remain faithful. After all, man has free will. God does not decide who believes and who does not. He calls all men to repentance, Acts 17:30, II Pet 3:9, Rom 2:4-8, Rom1:18-21.
God could not be just if He forordained anyone to eternal damnation. He saved all men from the condemnation of death and sin just so man could again freely choose Him Simply put, Christ reversed the fall of Adam thus giving man the privilege to have a personal relationship with God, the same as Adam who by his own free will chose death.
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,760
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
There are too many examples in scripture of believers who failed to remain faithful.
That could show that their belief or faith wasn't real. After all, we know that many people get fired up about some cause or other but then give it up when it's not so much fun, another one comes along, or something else in that vein. It's like the Biblical story about the good seed falling upon bad ground, springing up all right, but then dying quickly.
After all, man has free will. God does not decide who believes and who does not. He calls all men to repentance
I don't find it inconsistent of God to call upon every sinner to turn from his sin and acclaim the true God WITHOUT necessarily rewarding everyone who does it. To do what's right is of course the proper course of action regardless of whether or not it gets you something in return.
God could not be just if He forordained anyone to eternal damnation. He saved all men....
Did he? I don't believe that is this position taken by your own church or other of the denominations that affirm the concept of free will.

I tend not to take sides when it comes to this particular issue, but that's partially because both sides can make a good case for their beliefs and also because the other side thinks it has a terrific rebuttal when it actually isn't the last word on the subject.
 

Lees

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Messages
2,182
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I agree with Josiah relevant to the command for all believers to teach, preach and evangelize the world.
However, as to point of theology scripture and historical record does not support the theory of what Calvinist call election. There are too many examples in scripture of believers who failed to remain faithful. After all, man has free will. God does not decide who believes and who does not. He calls all men to repentance, Acts 17:30, II Pet 3:9, Rom 2:4-8, Rom1:18-21.
God could not be just if He forordained anyone to eternal damnation. He saved all men from the condemnation of death and sin just so man could again freely choose Him Simply put, Christ reversed the fall of Adam thus giving man the privilege to have a personal relationship with God, the same as Adam who by his own free will chose death.

You might want to be careful with the statement that "God could not be just if He fore-ordained anyone to eternal damnation." Recognize first, that God is just in all that He does. He is not just because you deem Him just.

That God provided salvation for all....yes. That He saved all....no.

Christ did not 'reverse' the fall of Adam. Through out all eternity, we who are saved will be there, in heaven with the Lord, because we are a product of a fallen humanity. We will forever be 'saved sinners'. Does that bother you?

Lees
 

Iconoclast

Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2024
Messages
15
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Mans will is bound by sin according to Jesus in Jn 8. WE explain that to those we present truth to. We explain as Jesus did that the Father has given a multitude of sinners to Jesus. He dies for them. At a point in time, All The Father has given to Jesus will be savingly and effectually drawn to Jesus. They all will come. Then we ask that person, has he come to Jesus yet?
 

Broadway

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2024
Messages
23
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
That could show that their belief or faith wasn't real. After all, we know that many people get fired up about some cause or other but then give it up when it's not so much fun, another one comes along, or something else in that vein. It's like the Biblical story about the good seed falling upon bad ground, springing up all right, but then dying quickly.
The parable of the sower is the most obvious declaration that election is not biblical relative to individuals faith. Of the four examples, the last three are all counted as believers in the beginning. But trials, difficulties of life drew them away and the lost faith.
I don't find it inconsistent of God to call upon every sinner to turn from his sin and acclaim the true God WITHOUT necessarily rewarding everyone who does it. To do what's right is of course the proper course of action regardless of whether or not it gets you something in return.
Which is why election cannot be found in scripture relative to ones personal salvation. God calls all men to repentance, Man is free to choose whether to accept that call or not.
Did he? I don't believe that is this position taken by your own church or other of the denominations that affirm the concept of free will.
That Christ came into this world and assumed our human nature to that He could save the world from death and sin is the whole point of the Gospel Truth. Our nature was condemned to death, because of Adam's sin. Christ came to save the world from this death and what results from this death, namely sin. Rom 5:12 proclaim this, The Rom 5: 8-10, Rom 5:18. I Cor 15: 21-22, Heb 2:9, Heb 2:14-15, II Cor 15:14-19, Col 1:15-20, II Tim 1:10. These texts all define the Incarnation. One of the hallmarks of Christianity.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
@Broadway

However, as to point of theology scripture and historical record does not support the theory of what Calvinist call election.


Well, yes and no.

The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Savior and that He does the saving. This is called the doctrine of Predestination (or better "Election"). The Bible does NOT teach that Jesus saves no one, that Jesus cannot save, that each DEAD, unregenerate, sinful, fallen, atheistic enemy of God saves himself by his own (entirely independent of God) self-generated thoughts, actions or works. The Bible does NOT teach that self saves self, indeed it insists no one saves themselves. GOD saves.

Now, a FEW Calvinists reverse this to insist that God damns some, choosing most to eternally burn in hell cuz He gets off on that, He thinks that glorifies Him. I reject that (as do most Calvinists).

Now, do not confuse this with the doctrine of "double-predestination" taught by a very few hyper, latter-day Calvinists or the Greek philosophy of Fate. It is entirely unrelated to either.

Yes, there is "free-will" in life, but not in justification (narrow). Life - both physical and and spiritual, just as the ancient Creed affirms (.... the Holy Spirit, the Lord and GIVER of life..."). Now, can one alive essentially commit suicide? Sure. Does THAT mean they must have given themselves life back in the womb 9 months before they were born? Of course not.



There are too many examples in scripture of believers who failed to remain faithful.

True. But that's a whole other enchilada. That's the hyper-Calvinists view of "Once Saved, Always Saved" - a few that non Calvinists reject (indeed, almost all Calvinists reject it, too).


He calls all men to repentance, Acts 17:30, II Pet 3:9, Rom 2:4-8, Rom1:18-21


Yes. But that does NOT mean that ergo each DEAD, unregenerate, fallen, broken, atheistic enemy of God saves himself by the thoughts and actions that he himself produces in self with nothing from God. Nowhere does the Bible state that the DEAD give spiritual life, faith and justification to self by repenting.


so man could again freely choose Him


I reject Pelagianism. I reject this heresy that Jesus is not the Savior but that each DEAD, unregerate, fallen, enemy of God saves himself by what he thinks and does independent of God... and then God rewards his actions with salvation. I believe that Jesus saves. That life, faith, justification are the gifts of God - as Scripture declares.




.
 
Last edited:

Broadway

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2024
Messages
23
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
You might want to be careful with the statement that "God could not be just if He fore-ordained anyone to eternal damnation." Recognize first, that God is just in all that He does. He is not just because you deem Him just.
So God is not love really. God created this world and when Adam freely sinned and the world condemned to death, He sent His only begotten Son to assume our human nature to raise it to life, then assign most of His creation to hell.
That God provided salvation for all....yes. That He saved all....no.
He saved all men from death and sin just so that He could again provide individual salvation to all men. Man, as man was created to be free with an independent will could again choose whether he would accpet God's great mercy to man or to reject Him.
Christ did not 'reverse' the fall of Adam. Through out all eternity, we who are saved will be there, in heaven with the Lord, because we are a product of a fallen humanity. We will forever be 'saved sinners'. Does that bother you?
You apparently have a different view of the fall. God created Adam good, not perfect. Adam enjoyed a personal relationship with God and was to bring the creation that God created as a living sacrifice back to God. Adam chose to sin and the consequences was death, physical death to the world. and to man. Gen 3:19, This death weakened man's faculties so that he sinned. The sting of death is sin
It was by His Incarnation that Jesus took on Himself our human nature so that He could raise it to life, I Cor 12:21-22, 52-56.
You are glossing over the whole purpose of Christ's coming. Without He being the Savior of the world, I John 4:14, we could not speak of eternal life.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
The parable of the sower is the most obvious declaration that election is not biblical relative to individuals faith. Of the four examples, the last three are all counted as believers in the beginning. But trials, difficulties of life drew them away and the lost faith.

You are confusing two ENTIRELY different inventions of hyper-Calvinism. You are confusing their idea of "double predestination" with "Once Saved, Always Saved." They are two entirely different and unrelated inventions of those latter-day Calvinists.


Which is why election cannot be found in scripture


It's all over Scripture. What is entirely missing is the view that each DEAD, unregenerate, fallen, atheistic, enemy of God saves himself entirely independent of God by what that lifeless person thinks and does; that self saves self, dead gives self life.

What IS unbiblical is "OSAS" but that's a whole other enchilada and not the topic here.


That Christ came into this world and assumed our human nature to that He could save the world from death and sin is the whole point of the Gospel Truth. nature was condemned to death, because of Adam's sin. Christ came to save the world from this death and what results from this death, namely sin. Rom 5:12 proclaim this, The Rom 5: 8-10, Rom 5:18. I Cor 15: 21-22, Heb 2:9, Heb 2:14-15, II Cor 15:14-19, Col 1:15-20, II Tim 1:10. These texts all define the Incarnation. One of the hallmarks of Christianity.


Right! There goes your whole position. The DEAD do not have a condition of spiritual life and affirmation of God that means they don't need anyone to SAVE them cuz they save themselves by the thoughts, choices and actions they take indenpent of God. AT MOST, your position seems to be that Jesus makes salvation POSSIBLE but isn't the Savior Himself, doesn't save anyone, each fallen dead lifeless person gives self live, faith and salvation - all with God just sitting there passively. It's a very, very extreme form of pelagianism... not even synergism but even more heretical than that.



.
 

Broadway

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2024
Messages
23
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
@Broadway




Well, yes and no.

The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Savior and that He does the saving. This is called the doctrine of Predestination (or better "Election"). The Bible does NOT teach that Jesus saves no one, that Jesus cannot save, that each DEAD, unregenerate, sinful, fallen, atheistic enemy of God saves himself by his own (entirely independent of God) self-generated thoughts, actions or works. The Bible does NOT teach that self saves self, indeed it insists no one saves themselves. GOD saves.

Now, a FEW Calvinists reverse this to insist that God damns some, choosing most to eternally burn in hell cuz He gets off on that, He thinks that glorifies Him. I reject that (as do most Calvinists).

Now, do not confuse this with the doctrine of "double-predestination" taught by a very few hyper, latter-day Calvinists or the Greek philosophy of Fate. It is entirely unrelated to either.

Yes, there is "free-will" in life, but not in justification (narrow). Life - both physical and and spiritual, just as the ancient Creed affirms (.... the Holy Spirit, the Lord and GIVER of life..."). Now, can one alive essentially commit suicide? Sure. Does THAT mean they must have given themselves life back in the womb 9 months before they were born? Of course not.





True. But that's a whole other enchilada. That's the hyper-Calvinists view of "Once Saved, Always Saved" - a few that non Calvinists reject (indeed, almost all Calvinists reject it, too).





Yes. But that does NOT mean that ergo each DEAD, unregenerate, fallen, broken, atheistic enemy of God saves himself by the thoughts and actions that he himself produces in self with nothing from God. Nowhere does the Bible state that the DEAD give spiritual life, faith and justification to self by repenting.





I reject Pelagianism. I reject this heresy that Jesus is not the Savior but that each DEAD, unregerate, fallen, enemy of God saves himself by what he thinks and does independent of God... and then God rewards his actions with salvation. I believe that Jesus saves. That life, faith, justification are the gifts of God - as Scripture declares.




.
+
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,760
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Which is why election cannot be found in scripture relative to ones personal salvation. God calls all men to repentance, Man is free to choose whether to accept that call or not.
That's kind of a non-sequitur, isn't it? Man being free to choose doesn't either prove or disprove the idea of predestination.
That Christ came into this world and assumed our human nature to that He could save the world from death and sin is the whole point of the Gospel Truth.
That's the language that's used, but it refers to the extent of his work. The "world" there obviously does not mean that every last individual person who is born will be saved. And there is plenty in Scripture to that effect.
 

Broadway

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2024
Messages
23
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
@Broadway





True. But that's a whole other enchilada. That's the hyper-Calvinists view of "Once Saved, Always Saved" - a few that non Calvinists reject (indeed, almost all Calvinists reject it, too).
The parable of the sower is directly opposite of what the hyper-Calvinists hold
Yes. But that does NOT mean that ergo each DEAD, unregenerate, fallen, broken, atheistic enemy of God saves himself by the thoughts and actions that he himself produces in self with nothing from God. Nowhere does the Bible state that the DEAD give spiritual life, faith and justification to self by repenting.
I have no idea what you say here relates to what I stated.
I reject Pelagianism. I reject this heresy that Jesus is not the Savior but that each DEAD, unregerate, fallen, enemy of God saves himself by what he thinks and does independent of God... and then God rewards his actions with salvation. I believe that Jesus saves. That life, faith, justification are the gifts of God - as Scripture declares.
So do I as well as my Church. However there is nothing that I stated that even resembles Pelagianism.
I believe that Jesus saves as well. God gives all things to man including life, faith, justification.
A believer is justified by faith. Man must accept God's call, a call He gives to all men. Man either accepts or rejects. Rom 1:18-24 clearly points this out. The consequences are spelled out in Rom 2:6-11.
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,760
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
So God is not love really. God created this world and when Adam freely sinned and the world condemned to death, He sent His only begotten Son to assume our human nature to raise it to life, then assign most of His creation to hell.
That's what a Universalist would say in rebuttal...and some (Eastern) Orthodox Christians as well. But as I read your posts, it seems that you may want it both ways--Jesus saved everyone, not just made it possible for all to be saved; YET at the same time we have free will and so can choose to live life as non-believers and willful sinners, which is described in Scripture as the path to damnation.
 

Broadway

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2024
Messages
23
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
That's kind of a non-sequitur, isn't it? Man being free to choose doesn't either prove or disprove the idea of predestination.
Predestination states that God chooses who will believe. Man is not free to chose. The Bible clearly teaches that man chooses and is responsible for what he does with the gifts God imparts to all men.
That's the language that's used, but it refers to the extent of his work. The "world" there obviously does not mean that every last individual person who is born will be saved. And there is plenty in Scripture to that effect.
Well, the extent of His work was to save the world from death and sin, Every single person died through Adam, just as all men will be raised in the last day either to heaven or hell. Rom 5:12, I Cor 15:12-22, 53-54.
Because He saved the world, He can now call all men to repentance. If Christ did not defeat death there would be no hell or heaven. Man and the world would have been dissolved by death, or non existence.
Do you not understand the purpose of the Incarnation and what it accomplished.? You seem to overlook it completely, then conflate what Christ did with man's response to that Gift.
 

Broadway

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2024
Messages
23
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
That's what a Universalist would say in rebuttal...and some (Eastern) Orthodox Christians as well. But as I read your posts, it seems that you may want it both ways--Jesus saved everyone, not just made it possible for all to be saved; YET at the same time we have free will and so can choose to live life as non-believers and willful sinners, which is described in Scripture as the path to damnation.
I didn't even hint or surely explain anything that the universalist actually believe, It has been a heretical view since the beginning of Christianity.
You show a great confusion regarding one of the hallmarks of Christianity, namely the Incarnation. It might also come from a misunderstanding of the fall of man.
It seems several of you responding to me have the same difficulty. I gave numerous texts that clearly show what the Incarnated Christ did and for what purpose. You seem to completely bypass the whole event and deal ONLY with man's response to God's great love, mercy and salvation. Again, read carefully Heb 2:14-17. That is the Incarnation and why Christ needed to assume our human natures.
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,760
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Predestination states that God chooses who will believe.
and be saved as a result.
Do you not understand the purpose of the Incarnation and what it accomplished.? You seem to overlook it completely, then conflate what Christ did with man's response to that Gift.
You may have read the previous posts too hastily, if that is your conclusion.
 

Lees

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Messages
2,182
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
So God is not love really. God created this world and when Adam freely sinned and the world condemned to death, He sent His only begotten Son to assume our human nature to raise it to life, then assign most of His creation to hell.

He saved all men from death and sin just so that He could again provide individual salvation to all men. Man, as man was created to be free with an independent will could again choose whether he would accpet God's great mercy to man or to reject Him.

You apparently have a different view of the fall. God created Adam good, not perfect. Adam enjoyed a personal relationship with God and was to bring the creation that God created as a living sacrifice back to God. Adam chose to sin and the consequences was death, physical death to the world. and to man. Gen 3:19, This death weakened man's faculties so that he sinned. The sting of death is sin
It was by His Incarnation that Jesus took on Himself our human nature so that He could raise it to life, I Cor 12:21-22, 52-56.
You are glossing over the whole purpose of Christ's coming. Without He being the Savior of the world, I John 4:14, we could not speak of eternal life.

I did not say 'God is not love'.

No. God provided salvation for all. He doesn't save all.

Adam could do nothing to bring God's creation back to Him other than to fall.

I am interested in the question I asked you earlier. I said God did not reverse the fall of Adam because we who are saved will forever be the product of fallen humanity. We will forever be saved sinners. Does that bother you?

Lees
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Man must accept God's call, a call He gives to all men. Man either accepts or rejects. Rom 1:18-24 clearly points this out. The consequences are spelled out in Rom 2:6-11.

@Broadway


What you state is an aspect of Pelagianism.... even worse than the heresy of synergism. Your view that the DEAD, unregenerate, faithless, Godless, atheistic enemy of God must (AND CAN) give spiritual life, faith and salvation to his own DEAD self - and this action is the cause of his salvation.

Yes, we must respond to Christ's work by faith. Where you disagree with Scripture is your insistence that the DEAD godless atheist does this by for for self ... and this good work that HE does is what saves. Scripture nowhere states that, indeed, Scripture states the opposite: that faith is the work of GOD, not of the DEAD atheist fallen man for himself.



As for predestination, here's what the Bible states:

1 Peter 1:1-3
"To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead"

Ephesians 1:3-7
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

2 Thessalonians 2:13
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

Acts 13:48
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to believe."

Romans 8:30
"Those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

2 Timothy 1:9
"Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."

Matthew 24:22-24
"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

Others....
Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:20,22,27; Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1, etc., etc., etc.



- Josiah



.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom