Nikki Haley's next move

[Lanman87]

When did the media, and then people in general, start using the word "populism" to mean something sinister rather what it actually means, do you think?

Because most nefarious leaders, be it dictators or cult leaders or televangelist use populist rhetoric and emotional appeals to stir up their followers. Of course, all politicians use populism to one degree or another. My issue is when the person becomes more important that the movement. Which is what I believe has happened with Trump and the Republican party. Trump is right on a lot of issues. But so are a lot of other people.

 

[Lanman87]

So you think that it took some orator to make 3/4 of the public (according to current polling) believe that inflation, an unchecked invasion of our country, and a dismantling of all of our institutions...

is alarming to Americans, but instead that it has all simply been engineered by one politician??

No, I think he has engineered the (false) belief that he is the only one that can do anything about it.

 

[Albion]

Because most nefarious leaders, be it dictators or cult leaders or televangelist use populist rhetoric and emotional appeals to stir up their followers.

Such people do that kind of thing, but I think we should stick to the topic here.

My issue is when the person becomes more important that the movement. Which is what I believe has happened with Trump and the Republican party.

Because the opposition has made it so, not Trump. Every political analysist understands that the only hope of Biden in the 2024 election is to demonize Trump while avoiding all the issues since almost nothing in the current administration's record in office can be defended.

 

[Josiah]

My issue is when the person becomes more important that the movement. Which is what I believe has happened with Trump and the Republican party. Trump is right on a lot of issues. But so are a lot of other people.

Yup.


.

 

[Lanman87]

Because the opposition has made it so, not Trump. Every political analysist understands that the only hope of Biden in the 2024 election is to demonize Trump while avoiding all the issues since almost nothing in the current administration's record in office can be defended.

Biden had much rather face Trump than Haley or DeSantis. Trump is almost as old as Biden and most people have their mind made up about him. Plus, Trump fires up Democrats in a way that Haley or even DeSantis would never do. Trump winning the nomination was the best thing to happen to Biden's campaign.

 

[Lees]

Okay, let me rephrase. I stand for Reagan Republicanism which got its start with Barry Goldwater.

So, according to you, you can follow a man's Republicanism and that's fine. But when people follow Trump's Republicanism, you say they follow a cult leader.

Both the person and their political views are in play in an election. People vote for the one who represents them the most. That doesn't make him a cult leader or those who support him cult followers. That is just a lie and an effort to influence the ignorant.

The point is, political parties change all the time. Your Republican party was born out of change. It was created to be a northern state sectional party against the Southern slave states. And man did it find a populace leader. A real cult icon, Lincoln. As I said, you can go to Washington and worship his statue there.

Times change and so do political parties. In 1860 I would have voted Democrat. I would never vote Democrat today. In 1860 I would not have voted for the Republican party. But today they are the party closest to conservatism.

Point being, Trump runs in the Republican party, and is conservative.

Lees

 

[Lanman87]

Point being, Trump runs in the Republican party, and is conservative.

Yes he does. But I think he has pushed the party in the wrong direction.

 

[Lees]

That's just it. Populism might win one election but anger doesn't last. The 2022 midterm elections showed us that Trumps populism isn't sustainable.

The few republicans who did win were long time Republicans who ties to the Party (like Katie Britt in my state) . The MAGA candidates (Lake, Oz, Walker) were all winnable races had the republicans ran a traditional conservative instead of MAGA candidates.

To win an election you must win your party as well as win over some independents.

If Trump wins in November it will be because Biden is an even worse candidate that him and the independents stay home and don't vote for anyone.

Who cares. Populism is involved in all elections. Don't you ever watch the election conventions? So much hysteria. And anger does last. Midterm elections almost always go against the incumbent.

Many of the 'traditional conservatives' make up the swamp. They will always be against him, like yourself. They are against what he stands for, not just against himself. I think he reveals to them their own compromising character.

Lees

 

[Albion]

Biden had much rather face Trump than Haley or DeSantis.

Well, of course. Trump has been so demonized over the past five years that berating him would be the best option for Biden and, as already noted, it's about all that he can do since he cannot run on his record.

 

[Lees]

I voted for Republicans in all my state wide and local elections and abstained from the Presidential ballot.

Oh, you're one of those. You first say to me you want to stand for the Republican Party. But then when the Republican you don't like is running, you choose to not vote at all. You would rather see Biden win then see Trump win. You are willing to let a liberal, leftest, Democrat win then a Conservative. You are willing to let a liberal, leftest, Democrat appoint Supreme Court justices then a Conservative you don't like.

So, how did you help your Republican party again?

Lees

 

[Lanman87]

Who cares

You don't care if Republicans win? Hadn't you rather a candidate win that agrees with 80% of what you agree with than a Democrat win who agrees with 10%.

To me Trump isn't about the policy. I think his extreme isolationism is wrong and fear what he might do with NATO. But most of what Trump stands for I agree with.

The reason I can't vote for him is because he is a horrible person.

Oh, you're one of those. You first say to me you want to stand for the Republican Party. But then when the Republican you don't like is running, you choose to not vote at all. You would rather see Biden win then see Trump win. You are willing to let a liberal, leftest, Democrat win then a Conservative. You are willing to let a liberal, leftest, Democrat appoint Supreme Court justices then a Conservative you don't like.

So, how did you help your Republican party again?

Lees

I live in a state where Trump was going to win 60%+. If I had lived in a swing state I would have held my nose and voted for Trump.

 

[Lanman87]

Well, of course. Trump has been so demonized over the past five years that berating him would be the best option for Biden and, as already noted, it's about all that he can do since he cannot run on his record.

That is one reason I was hoping DeSantis or Haley or Scott would emerge and beat Trump. I think they would have a much better chance to beat Biden.

 

[Albion]

Yup.


.

Okay, and if one of them could win in 2024 AND had the backbone and commitment to really stop the wrongs that are the doing of the current administration, then all of us might be supportive. Alas, there is no other such person at present.

 

[Albion]

You don't care if Republicans win? Hadn't you rather a candidate win that agrees with 80% of what you agree with than a Democrat win who agrees with 10%.

I suppose that he would. However, that alternative simply doesn't exist at present so you are no longer talking about the present reality and have turned instead to hypotheticals.

I see that you think Sen. Scott or Gov. DeSantis could beat Biden. None of the polls suggest that they can, and that has nothing to do with whether they are deserving or not.

 

[Lees]

You don't care if Republicans win? Hadn't you rather a candidate win that agrees with 80% of what you agree with than a Democrat win who agrees with 10%.

To me Trump isn't about the policy. I think his extreme isolationism is wrong and fear what he might do with NATO. But most of what Trump stands for I agree with.

The reason I can't vote for him is because he is a horrible person.


I live in a state where Trump was going to win 60%+. If I had lived in a swing state I would have held my nose and voted for Trump.

The 'who cares' was directed toward your statement on 'Populism'. In the end you only have two to choose from. Why do you ask those questions? I voted, you didn't.

Then you made a mistake not voting for him.

He may not like you either, so? The issues are more important then your feelings.

And he would have held his nose as you voted.

Lees

 

[Lanman87]

I see that you think Sen. Scott or Gov. DeSantis could beat Biden. None of the polls suggest that they can, and that has nothing to do with whether they are deserving or not.

Polls at this time don't mean anything. Once Scott or DeSantis or Haley got on the debate stage with Biden it would be over. They are all younger, better spoken, and have a better grasp of the issues than Biden. The fact that any of them poll with 10 points of Biden at this point shows how vulnerable he is.

 

[Albion]

That is one reason I was hoping DeSantis or Haley or Scott would emerge and beat Trump. I think they would have a much better chance to beat Biden.

They wouldn't. Not even then. Had one of them caught fire with the voters, of course you'd have a better argument, but they tried and didn't catch on for whatever reason. i Have to admit that Haley is a better campaigner, etc. but she's considered to be a RINO by many Republicans who've looked at her record, so without almost complete support from her own party, hard work, lots of campaign contributions, and good speaking ability cannot save such a candidate.

 

[Lanman87]

The 'who cares' was directed toward your statement on 'Populism'. In the end you only have two to choose from. Why do you ask those questions? I voted, you didn't.

Then you made a mistake not voting for him.

He may not like you either, so? The issues are more important then your feelings.

And he would have held his nose as you voted.

Lees

My point is that 2022 MAGA candidates getting swept (in places they should have easily won) shows that Trumps populism isn't sustainable. Georgia's republican governor, who Trump bashed constantly, easily won re-election. Hershel Walker, who Trump campaigned for, got handily beat. It was the same voters uses the same voting machines. A large number of people chose the non-MAGA Republican while not voting for the MAGA Republican. Trumps hand picked Candidate, Dr. Oz, couldn't beat a man who had a stroke and could barely talk.

Trump is dragging the Republican party down and cost the Party the majority in the Senate and a larger majority in the House. Good candidates who could win are being replaced by MAGA Candidates who can't win.

 

[Lanman87]

They wouldn't. Not even then. Had one of them caught fire with the voters, of course you'd have a better argument, but they tried and didn't catch on for whatever reason. i Have to admit that Haley is a better campaigner, etc. but she's considered to be a RINO by many Republicans who've looked at her record, so without almost complete support from her own party, hard work, lots of campaign contributions, and good speaking ability cannot save such a candidate.

I think Republicans would get behind any of them. RINO or not. I also think they would win 60% or more of "swing voters". And I think without Trump in the race Democrats would not be near as enthusiastic in their support of Biden or the election in general.

 

[Albion]

Polls at this time don't mean anything. Once Scott or DeSantis or Haley got on the debate stage with Biden it would be over.

There's a question as to whether Biden will agree to debate with any Republican this year. And the 40% or so of voters who will vote for any Democrat under any circumstances won't hold it against him any more than him campaigning from his basement in 2020 and being only a part-time President at the present seem to faze them.