Does God have to obey logic and reason?

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Does God have to abide by logic and reason, or does His divine nature give Him the right to disregard logic and reason as far as His behavior goes?

If you watch this video, you might (will?) understand why God allowing suffering to happen is irrational regardless of whether the goal He wants to achieve outweighs the severity of the suffering. Due to His tri-omni attributes, He could achieve those same goals without the suffering, which makes the allowance of suffering in direct conflict with his omnibenevolence, and therefore illogical.

However, an argument could be made that God is not constrained by the principles of logic and reason and that He could act in any way He wants and have said actions be good in spite of them being classified by reason as evil. Do you think that is the case? Should God have the innate right to decide that something which is defined by human logic to be objectively evil, be good just because He calls it good?

 

[Lees]

Does God have to abide by logic and reason, or does His divine nature give Him the right to disregard logic and reason as far as His behavior goes?

If you watch this video, you might (will?) understand why God allowing suffering to happen is irrational regardless of whether the goal He wants to achieve outweighs the severity of the suffering. Due to His tri-omni attributes, He could achieve those same goals without the suffering, which makes the allowance of suffering in direct conflict with his omnibenevolence, and therefore illogical.

However, an argument could be made that God is not constrained by the principles of logic and reason and that He could act in any way He wants and have said actions be good in spite of them being classified by reason as evil. Do you think that is the case? Should God have the innate right to decide that something which is defined by human logic to be objectively evil, be good just because He calls it good?

God doesn't abide by any of mans laws, logic, or reason. God doesn't operate on man's view of 'rights'.

What man calls good is many times evil. What man calls evil is many times good. God doesn't operate on the basis of what man thinks.

If God calls something evil, it is evil, no matter how it appears to man.

As I said in your other thread, God doesn't do what is good. What God does is good.

Lees

 

[Josiah]

Does God have to abide by logic and reason

No.



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[Lucian Hodoboc]

God doesn't abide by any of mans laws, logic, or reason. God doesn't operate on man's view of 'rights'.

What man calls good is many times evil. What man calls evil is many times good. God doesn't operate on the basis of what man thinks.

If God calls something evil, it is evil, no matter how it appears to man.

As I said in your other thread, God doesn't do what is good. What God does is good.

Lees

Then it is impossible to have any sort of interaction with such a Being because we don't have a common ground for reality assessment.

 

[Lees]

Then it is impossible to have any sort of interaction with such a Being because we don't have a common ground for reality assessment.

No. It's impossible for 'you' to have any interaction because you demand God come to you on your terms.

Which means you really have no interest in knowing God. And that is fine. You don't have to....in this life. In the next life, all such opinions and logic will go down the toilet. And you will have interaction with God...just not very pleasurable.

Lees

 

[Jason_76]

God is always good. However, those outside of the Christian Universalist thinking cannot reconcile predestination with free will, therefore God's actions would obviously be cruel and unfair and followers have to make scriptural excuses for it.

For instance, what can we make of double predestination where God literally assigns certain folks to hell, even before birth?

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

No. It's impossible for 'you' to have any interaction because you demand God come to you on your terms.

Which means you really have no interest in knowing God. And that is fine. You don't have to....in this life. In the next life, all such opinions and logic will go down the toilet. And you will have interaction with God...just not very pleasurable.

Lees

Your accusations are quite frankly insulting, as you either:
1. know nothing about my interests and past endeavors related to seeking God
or
2. know about them from my post history, yet somehow disregard them for reasons that I don't understand.

The God you seem to present in your replies is a dictator that doesn't even align with the one from the Old Testament, as the God of the Old Testament at least tries to reason (through the prophets) with His people. He takes into consideration their accusations and asks them to "come and let us reason together" (Isaiah 1:18). He lets Abraham bargain with Him in regard to the destruction of Sodom. He listens to Moses' pleas to not destroy the people after they worshipped the golden calf. He allows Gideon to ask for proof twice. He repeatedly tries to make the Israelites return to Him even after they continue to worship other gods. He is somewhat flexible in His interaction with people.

The God you present seems to be uninterested in doing anything other than whatever He wants without any regard for the opinions of others. The God you present resembles a human dictator more than a rational Creator of everything.

 

[tango]

Your accusations are quite frankly insulting, as you either:
1. know nothing about my interests and past endeavors related to seeking God
or
2. know about them from my post history, yet somehow disregard them for reasons that I don't understand.

The God you seem to present in your replies is a dictator that doesn't even align with the one from the Old Testament, as the God of the Old Testament at least tries to reason (through the prophets) with His people. He takes into consideration their accusations and asks them to "come and let us reason together" (Isaiah 1:18). He lets Abraham bargain with Him in regard to the destruction of Sodom. He listens to Moses' pleas to not destroy the people after they worshipped the golden calf. He allows Gideon to ask for proof twice. He repeatedly tries to make the Israelites return to Him even after they continue to worship other gods. He is somewhat flexible in His interaction with people.

The God you present seems to be uninterested in doing anything other than whatever He wants without any regard for the opinions of others. The God you present resembles a human dictator more than a rational Creator of everything.

All these questions you're asking... isn't it great that you have the freedom to think and ask questions? In your other thread you seemed to think free will was a bad thing, and yet at the same time you don't want to be told to accept that some things will remain a mystery. So which is it? Do you want the freedom to think and ask questions, or do you want to be told to just accept things?

 

[Lees]

Your accusations are quite frankly insulting, as you either:
1. know nothing about my interests and past endeavors related to seeking God
or
2. know about them from my post history, yet somehow disregard them for reasons that I don't understand.

The God you seem to present in your replies is a dictator that doesn't even align with the one from the Old Testament, as the God of the Old Testament at least tries to reason (through the prophets) with His people. He takes into consideration their accusations and asks them to "come and let us reason together" (Isaiah 1:18). He lets Abraham bargain with Him in regard to the destruction of Sodom. He listens to Moses' pleas to not destroy the people after they worshipped the golden calf. He allows Gideon to ask for proof twice. He repeatedly tries to make the Israelites return to Him even after they continue to worship other gods. He is somewhat flexible in His interaction with people.

The God you present seems to be uninterested in doing anything other than whatever He wants without any regard for the opinions of others. The God you present resembles a human dictator more than a rational Creator of everything.

Imagine that. And I find your implications insulting. I guess we are even.

I go by what you are saying. I don't need to know your past history.

God is a dictator...yes. It's His way or the highway. Why? Do you think God runs a democracy? What a laugh.

God's reasoning with His people is not the same as the worlds logic and reason which you peddle. God is flexible with His people. God never does nothing He doesn't want to do.

The God I present is the God as revealed in the Bible. God is interested in bringing man in line with His will. He is not interested in doing anything man wants that is contrary to His will.

Lees

 

[Josiah]

However, those outside of the Christian Universalist thinking cannot reconcile predestination with free will

1 "Predestination" in Christian theology applies ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY to initial justification. It applies to NOTHING else. It is not the same as the philosophy of fate or predetermination. You seem ignorant of this critical point. And you seem unaware (and disinterested) in the concept of "double predestination" is embraced only by a very, very, very few radical Calvinists, it is not taught by traditional, orthodox Christianity.

2. Universalism does not "reconcile" the two either. In Universalism, EVERYONE is justified - regardless of any choice or will THEY make.



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[Lucian Hodoboc]

In your other thread you seemed to think free will was a bad thing, and yet at the same time you don't want to be told to accept that some things will remain a mystery.

If the existence of free will is the cause of suffering and there is no other way to avoid this, then in that situation I do think that free will is a bad thing. If humans being robotic beings with no ability to make decisions would mean that no one experiences any suffering at all, then I'm all for that.

But that is not the case. I experience suffering, therefore I am entitled to not be comfortable with accepting mysteries that go against the laws of logic.

 

[tango]

If the existence of free will is the cause of suffering and there is no other way to avoid this, then in that situation I do think that free will is a bad thing. If humans being robotic beings with no ability to make decisions would mean that no one experiences any suffering at all, then I'm all for that.

Free will is the cause of much suffering. If I hit you with a big stick you suffer. It's simple. Sometimes the cause and effect is less obvious - if I live upstream of you and dump my trash in the river that you use to draw drinking water, over time there's a good chance my trash will slowly poison you. If I build a fence along the boundary between your land and mine, your plants now cast into permanent shadow will die and you won't be able to harvest much food from them any more.

But that is not the case. I experience suffering, therefore I am entitled to not be comfortable with accepting mysteries that go against the laws of logic.

You are entitled to believe, or not believe, anything you choose. Demanding that your interpretation of logic, with your inherent assumptions and biases, be accepted as the only valid interpretation is another matter entirely.

 

[Albion]

If the existence of free will is the cause of suffering and there is no other way to avoid this, then in that situation I do think that free will is a bad thing.

Fair enough. You may think that, but our God does not. The question here is whether there's something wrong with God or that the Judeo-Christian God isn't the real thing. In that case, you and we are simply followers of different religions. That's not unusual in society, although it's a bit perplexing when the denier describes himself as being in agreement with the Nicene Creed (which you do).

If humans being robotic beings with no ability to make decisions would mean that no one experiences any suffering at all, then I'm all for that.

Not so fast. All you are saying there is that God doesn't live up to your standards, so you will not believe in him. We started this by examining if any of God's attributes are not possible, but all we have arrived at is you being in disagreement with Him.

But that is not the case. I experience suffering, therefore I am entitled to not be comfortable with accepting mysteries that go against the laws of logic.

Knock yourself out. Have any of us insisted that you are not at liberty to believe anything you want when it comes to the nature of God? No.