Is sin a choice, or is it natural to?

[Jazzy]

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Lamb]

Sin is both a disease and then a choice. It's a disease we inherited from Adam and Eve and also, because we are sinful, we can choose to make sinful thoughts and actions.

 

[Stravinsk]

Me before the great judgement:

God: Why did you do X, Y and Z against my Holy Will?

Me: My flesh, God, per your plan, by Adam and Eve. They sinned, so I sin. What can I do? I'm predisposed.

God: Are you holding the redemption card?

Me: Here it is. It says "Jesus is Lord"

God: All is well. My holiness predisposed you to sin so you could have grace. I created the evil in you so I could have mercy.

Me: Great deal. Now that I know it's all You, I can waltz into heaven with a clear conscience.

 

[Lamb]

Me before the great judgement:

God: Why did you do X, Y and Z against my Holy Will?

Me: My flesh, God, per your plan, by Adam and Eve. They sinned, so I sin. What can I do? I'm predisposed.

God: Are you holding the redemption card?

Me: Here it is. It says "Jesus is Lord"

God: All is well. My holiness predisposed you to sin so you could have grace. I created the evil in you so I could have mercy.

Me: Great deal. Now that I know it's all You, I can waltz into heaven with a clear conscience.

So much is wrong with what you wrote above.

Man fell into sin (you blame God, but man is to blame).

God's law is good and holy and there are consequences of not being good and holy.

God's plan included saving mankind. Those who reject deserve to be sent to hell.

All your writing above goes against God's sacrifice for forgiveness, which we don't deserve, but is a gift. We don't waltz into heaven, that sacrifice on the cross was a suffering that our Lord chose to do in our place.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Man fell into sin (you blame God, but man is to blame).

Who is "Man"? I thought Adam sinned. Why is humanity treated as a monolith, as an entity formed of numerous individuals? Why is the system designed in such a way so that the actions of one creature impact other creatures against their will? Doesn't that seem like a flawed system to you? Be honest. If this wasn't God we were discussing about, if some random human designed a society of conscient robots in which the actions of one robot can make other robots suffer, wouldn't you think it was a flawed system?

God's law is good and holy and there are consequences of not being good and holy.

Why are there consequences to not being good and holy? Can one choose to not partake in existence or are these rules imposed unto everyone against their will?

God: "You have to be good and holy or else you will suffer these consequences."
Created being: "I don't want to experience existence under these conditions."
God:
- option 1: "Ok, I respect your decision." *poof* instant, painless removal from existence of said created being.
or
- option 2: "You don't get to choose. You have to experience existence under these conditions and if you disagree with the conditions, you will be punished by default."

Option 1 would be a merciful God. Option 2 would be a dictator.

All your writing above goes against God's sacrifice for forgiveness, which we don't deserve, but is a gift.

Why don't we deserve it, considering that we didn't ask to exist? That's like saying that children don't deserve their parents' efforts to raise them. Yes, they do deserve them, because they were brought into existence without their consent.

There was no need for any sacrifice for forgiveness. Jesus told people to forgive just like God forgives (Matthew 6:14). If God required any sacrifice to forgive, then we would also have to require a sacrifice from others in exchange for our forgiveness.

 

[Stravinsk]

So much is wrong with what you wrote above.

Man fell into sin (you blame God, but man is to blame).

"Man is to blame" - Adam and Eve, you mean. I'm not either of them. But if it follows that I *inherited* a sin-nature from *their disobedience*, then yes, God is to blame.

Think of it this way. Two blue-eyed, blond haired parents decide to have a child. The child comes out and grows to be blonde haired and blue eyed. Who is responsible for this? The parents. He/she cannot change their DNA, their physical traits are solely the responsibility of who? The parents, and the parents alone.

Now of course the parents didn't make themselves, they had no choice in their existence either. So if some "sin nature" can be "passed on" like physical traits such as blond and blue eyed, then the responsibility for that comes from the Entity that Created man, not man himself.

I don't believe this inherited sin condition, but many Christians do, even though they often use a lot of wordage to say they don't.

God's law is good and holy and there are consequences of not being good and holy.

God's plan included saving mankind. Those who reject deserve to be sent to hell.

All your writing above goes against God's sacrifice for forgiveness, which we don't deserve, but is a gift. We don't waltz into heaven, that sacrifice on the cross was a suffering that our Lord chose to do in our place.

And yet Christ says "Go and learn what this means, I desire mercy, not sacrifice".

 

[Lees]

Me before the great judgement:

God: Why did you do X, Y and Z against my Holy Will?

Me: My flesh, God, per your plan, by Adam and Eve. They sinned, so I sin. What can I do? I'm predisposed.

God: Are you holding the redemption card?

Me: Here it is. It says "Jesus is Lord"

God: All is well. My holiness predisposed you to sin so you could have grace. I created the evil in you so I could have mercy.

Me: Great deal. Now that I know it's all You, I can waltz into heaven with a clear conscience.

Your parody is only your fallen imagination. No such discussion as you describe will occur. The door is already closed. The die is cast. No redemption card will exist.

In that great judgement you speak of, your eternal destiny has already been decided. That judgement will show the righteous nature of God in casting all in the Lake of Fire who are present at it. You're not there to determine 'if' you go. You're there to go.

Oh, you 'will' believe on that day....but, too late.

Lees

 

[Stravinsk]

Your parody is only your fallen imagination. No such discussion as you describe will occur. The door is already closed. The die is cast. No redemption card will exist.

In that great judgement you speak of, your eternal destiny has already been decided. That judgement will show the righteous nature of God in casting all in the Lake of Fire who are present at it. You're not there to determine 'if' you go. You're there to go.

Oh, you 'will' believe on that day....but, too late.

Lees

Wow! I didn't know God was here among us going by the name Lees! The "blessed aren't the peacemakers" goes well with your "Do Judge" attitudes! Hi Ho Lee-Jesus!

 

[Lees]

Who is "Man"? I thought Adam sinned. Why is humanity treated as a monolith, as an entity formed of numerous individuals? Why is the system designed in such a way so that the actions of one creature impact other creatures against their will? Doesn't that seem like a flawed system to you? Be honest. If this wasn't God we were discussing about, if some random human designed a society of conscient robots in which the actions of one robot can make other robots suffer, wouldn't you think it was a flawed system?


Why are there consequences to not being good and holy? Can one choose to not partake in existence or are these rules imposed unto everyone against their will?

God: "You have to be good and holy or else you will suffer these consequences."
Created being: "I don't want to experience existence under these conditions."
God:
- option 1: "Ok, I respect your decision." *poof* instant, painless removal from existence of said created being.
or
- option 2: "You don't get to choose. You have to experience existence under these conditions and if you disagree with the conditions, you will be punished by default."

Option 1 would be a merciful God. Option 2 would be a dictator.


Why don't we deserve it, considering that we didn't ask to exist? That's like saying that children don't deserve their parents' efforts to raise them. Yes, they do deserve them, because they were brought into existence without their consent.

There was no need for any sacrifice for forgiveness. Jesus told people to forgive just like God forgives (Matthew 6:14). If God required any sacrifice to forgive, then we would also have to require a sacrifice from others in exchange for our forgiveness.

No. God's system is perfect, accomplishing all that He wants it to. No flaws.

Well, it is God we are talking about, not man. And it is man we are talking about, not robots.

There are consequences to not being good, righteous, and holy, because God is Holy. Therein lies your problem. And it was God's problem, but He has solved it.

Nothing wrong with a dictator when the Dictator is God.

How silly you are. How does God ask you if you want to exist, when you don't exist? You need to face up to reality. You don't get your way.

God doesn't forgive like man forgives. Man's forgiveness involves not seeking a just reaction. God cannot forgive unless a just reaction has been given.

Lees

 

[Lees]

Wow! I didn't know God was here among us going by the name Lees! The "blessed aren't the peacemakers" goes well with your "Do Judge" attitudes! Hi Ho Lee-Jesus!

No mercy or peace making will remove the judgements from God.

Lees

 

[Lees]

Careful @Lucian Hodoboc . God has revealed himself on this message board! It's non-other than Lees! The blessed Peacemaker who cheers for war and Palestinian deaths, and also expresses love by denigrating blacks. He's moved up in the world, not just an ordinary human anymore, he will stand at the judgement as the great Judge! Be careful mate!

As usual, you're understanding of the judgement is flawed. I won't be at the judgement you described.

Lees

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

There are consequences to not being good, righteous, and holy, because God is Holy.

Holy means "set apart", "like no other". I don't see the logical connection between "being set apart" and "not being good having consequences".

Nothing wrong with a dictator when the Dictator is God.

Well, this is where we disagree on. I don't think even ultimate good should have the right to enforce existence upon those who don't want to exist.

How silly you are. How does God ask you if you want to exist, when you don't exist?

Foreknowledge. If He knows everything, then He knows which of the creature He creates want to exist and consent to His rules and which don't. Based on this, He should not create the creatures whom He knows would not desire to exist.

Or the other option, which I presented above, painless removal from existence of the creatures who don't consent to living by His rules.

God doesn't forgive like man forgives. Man's forgiveness involves not seeking a just reaction. God cannot forgive unless a just reaction has been given.

God can do anything He wants, as per Jesus' statement (Matthew 19:26). The King from Jesus' parable (Matthew 18:21-35) symbolizes God. He could forgive his servant's debt without demanding anything in exchange other than that the servant show forgiveness to others, and no one argued that it would be unfair to do so.

Calling the punishment of an innocent in exchange for the guilty, for the sake of inflicting harm in someone, "justice" is an affront to the significant of the word "justice".

 

[Lees]

Holy means "set apart", "like no other". I don't see the logical connection between "being set apart" and "not being good having consequences".


Well, this is where we disagree on. I don't think even ultimate good should have the right to enforce existence upon those who don't want to exist.


Foreknowledge. If He knows everything, then He knows which of the creature He creates want to exist and consent to His rules and which don't. Based on this, He should not create the creatures whom He knows would not desire to exist.

Or the other option, which I presented above, painless removal from existence of the creatures who don't consent to living by His rules.


God can do anything He wants, as per Jesus' statement (Matthew 19:26). The King from Jesus' parable (Matthew 18:21-35) symbolizes God. He could forgive his servant's debt without demanding anything in exchange other than that the servant show forgiveness to others, and no one argued that it would be unfair to do so.

Calling the punishment of an innocent in exchange for the guilty, for the sake of inflicting harm in someone, "justice" is an affront to the significant of the word "justice".

Man is not Holy as God is Holy. Man is not righteous as God is righteous. Man is not good as God is good.

As for God being a Dictator, you don't have to like it. But you can't do anything about it. If you want to find fault with God and have a little speech ready when you meet Him, go ahead. See where it gets you.

As to 'foreknowledge' God does know everything. And He knows who are His and who are not. Again, God's plan for Man and redemption, is His plan. And it works. Your criticism of Him goes nowhere, other than revealing your opposition against God.

As to your 'other option', the judgement is up to God. Not you. It is God Who is offended. It is He Who dishes out the judgement. You might want to consider the painful existence Christ endured. And that was God's Son. When you stand before Him, go ahead and complain about how you don't want a painful existence. See where it gets you when He spared not His Son.

As to God doing anything He wants, God cannot cease to be God. You cannot pit God's attributes in opposition to each other. God is merciful and righteous. God can forgive, but He cannot forgive at the expense of His righteousness. That which you want forgiven, must first be judged and payed for. Because He paid for it, He can forgive...if He wants to.

It's not your justice that God must deal with. It is His. He is the One Whose righteousness must be appeased. Not yours. And it is He Who determines the just punishment.

Lees

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

It's not your justice that God must deal with. It is His.

Yes, it is His justice, the justice that He Himself eloquently explained through the prophets.

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.21"But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.22None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live.23Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? (Ezekiel 18)

If God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked and wants them to turn from their ways and live, how can you come to the conclusion that He would take pleasure in the suffering/torture of the wicked? He will simply forgive the wicked as soon as they repent. If the wicked repent, they will be forgiven. If they don't repent, how could He take pleasure in the punishment of the innocent as a substitute for the unrepentant wicked?

This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says: “In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it. (Isaiah 30:15)

In repentance and rest is salvation, not in punishing the innocent as a substitute for the guilty.

 

[Lees]

Yes, it is His justice, the justice that He Himself eloquently explained through the prophets.

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.21"But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.22None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live.23Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? (Ezekiel 18)

If God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked and wants them to turn from their ways and live, how can you come to the conclusion that He would take pleasure in the suffering/torture of the wicked? He will simply forgive the wicked as soon as they repent. If the wicked repent, they will be forgiven. If they don't repent, how could He take pleasure in the punishment of the innocent as a substitute for the unrepentant wicked?

This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says: “In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it. (Isaiah 30:15)

In repentance and rest is salvation, not in punishing the innocent as a substitute for the guilty.

(Ezekiel 18) concerns justice upon people who are already fallen in Adam, and then chosen as the people of God, Israel, but who then rebel against God. The life and death it presents is not eternal life through faith in God. It is following the Law during their day to day life. See (18:5-13).

God can forgive the wicked if they repent and not bring them into judgement here which may well involve their death. That repentance is only allowed while on earth now. After death, it's over. And God doesn't grant repentance without the sacrifice of the innocent. The whole sacrificial system under the Law proves that. All pointing to the One True Sacrifice, Jesus Christ.

Point being, there is no comparison of Christ's sacrifice to what (Ezekiel 18) is saying. Same with (Is.30:15). It deals with temporal judgement now on earth. There is salvation for them if Israel repent. The 'salvation' spoken of in (30:15) is not eternal salvation. It is being saved from the judgement to come.

And the temporal salvation from ones enemies or ones sins, is not possible without the One Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is the basis upon which God can offer repentance and forgiveness and deliverance. Without it there is none.

Lees

 

[Stravinsk]

As usual, you're understanding of the judgement is flawed. I won't be at the judgement you described.

Lees

Actually @Lamb should read carefully post #7. Lees has proclaimed God's eternal Judgement on me! Since Lees has placed himself in God's place (as Judge of my destiny - something Jesus told His followers explicitly not to do), my post is simply highlighting that he has done so. Thanks, and I'll be archiving this thread.

 

[Lees]

Actually @Lamb should read carefully post #7. Lees has proclaimed God's eternal Judgement on me! Since Lees has placed himself in God's place (as Judge of my destiny - something Jesus told His followers explicitly not to do), my post is simply highlighting that he has done so. Thanks, and I'll be archiving this thread.

Archive all you want. It's you who presented the silly false parody. I simply corrected your false representation.

I certainly can say what God has said. And that is what I have said.

Your accusation is empty. By all means, read post #(7) again.

Lees

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

(Ezekiel 18) concerns justice upon people who are already fallen in Adam, and then chosen as the people of God, Israel, but who then rebel against God. The life and death it presents is not eternal life through faith in God. It is following the Law during their day to day life. See (18:5-13).

God can forgive the wicked if they repent and not bring them into judgement here which may well involve their death. That repentance is only allowed while on earth now. After death, it's over. And God doesn't grant repentance without the sacrifice of the innocent. The whole sacrificial system under the Law proves that. All pointing to the One True Sacrifice, Jesus Christ.

Point being, there is no comparison of Christ's sacrifice to what (Ezekiel 18) is saying. Same with (Is.30:15). It deals with temporal judgement now on earth. There is salvation for them if Israel repent. The 'salvation' spoken of in (30:15) is not eternal salvation. It is being saved from the judgement to come.

And the temporal salvation from ones enemies or ones sins, is not possible without the One Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is the basis upon which God can offer repentance and forgiveness and deliverance. Without it there is none.

Lees

Do you have any verses to back this up? Where in the Old Testament does God speak of an eternal punishment that is to come for those who don't believe that the Messiah will be a human sacrifice for their sins?

Why would God use the word "salvation" without explaining to His chosen people that there are different types and degrees of salvation?

How could God forgive people before the animal sacrificial system was set up through Moses? Why does He tell people that He wanted mercy, not sacrifice?

Oh, and one more question. To paraphrase Rabbit Tovia Singer: why should I believe Matthew instead of Ezekiel, Luke instead of Isaiah, John instead of Micah, Paul instead of Jeremiah etc.?

 

[Lees]

Do you have any verses to back this up? Where in the Old Testament does God speak of an eternal punishment that is to come for those who don't believe that the Messiah will be a human sacrifice for their sins?

Why would God use the word "salvation" without explaining to His chosen people that there are different types and degrees of salvation?

How could God forgive people before the animal sacrificial system was set up through Moses? Why does He tell people that He wanted mercy, not sacrifice?

Oh, and one more question. To paraphrase Rabbit Tovia Singer: why should I believe Matthew instead of Ezekiel, Luke instead of Isaiah, John instead of Micah, Paul instead of Jeremiah etc.?

I gave you verses and you ignore them. Now you ask for more. Don't ask for more till you address what I gave.

One has to only read the text to see the 'salvation' that is spoken of. But you ignored (Ezekiel 18:5-13). The people didn't misunderstand the salvation spoken of, when it was given. Just you, and others like you. It is nothing but reading 'comprehension'.

Even the animal sacrifices saved no one. They pointed to the One Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. God could save and forgive prior to the Mosaic Law, just like He could save and forgive during the Law, because Jesus Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8)

The Rabbi Singer should believe both the Old and New Testament. It's not either or. It's not instead of.

Lees

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

“5 Suppose there is a righteous man
who does what is just and right.
6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor’s wife
or have sexual relations with a woman during her period.
7 He does not oppress anyone,
but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.
8 He does not lend to them at interest
or take a profit from them.
He withholds his hand from doing wrong
and judges fairly between two parties.
9 He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign Lord.
10 “Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things[a] 11 (though the father has done none of them):

“He eats at the mountain shrines.
He defiles his neighbor’s wife.
12 He oppresses the poor and needy.
He commits robbery.
He does not return what he took in pledge.
He looks to the idols.
He does detestable things.
13 He lends at interest and takes a profit.
Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he is to be put to death; his blood will be on his own head.

I can't find anything in those verses about an eternal punishment that is to come for those who don't believe that the Messiah will be a human sacrifice for their sins. Nowhere does God mention in those verses, or in the entire Old Testament, that I'm aware of, that keeping His commandments will offer salvation to people only during this earthly life.

On the other hand, the New Testament does contain verses which seem to indicate that simply believing in Jesus as the Messiah will not be a criteria at the judgement. In the parable of the sheep and the goats, the sheep are not welcomed into Paradise because they believed that Jesus died for their sins, nor were the goats cast away because they didn't believe that Jesus died for their sins. They were judged for their actions.