Is sin a choice, or is it natural to?

[Lees]

“5 Suppose there is a righteous man
who does what is just and right.
6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor’s wife
or have sexual relations with a woman during her period.
7 He does not oppress anyone,
but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.
8 He does not lend to them at interest
or take a profit from them.
He withholds his hand from doing wrong
and judges fairly between two parties.
9 He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign Lord.
10 “Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things[a] 11 (though the father has done none of them):

“He eats at the mountain shrines.
He defiles his neighbor’s wife.
12 He oppresses the poor and needy.
He commits robbery.
He does not return what he took in pledge.
He looks to the idols.
He does detestable things.
13 He lends at interest and takes a profit.
Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he is to be put to death; his blood will be on his own head.

I can't find anything in those verses about an eternal punishment that is to come for those who don't believe that the Messiah will be a human sacrifice for their sins. Nowhere does God mention in those verses, or in the entire Old Testament, that I'm aware of, that keeping His commandments will offer salvation to people only during this earthly life.

On the other hand, the New Testament does contain verses which seem to indicate that simply believing in Jesus as the Messiah will not be a criteria at the judgement. In the parable of the sheep and the goats, the sheep are not welcomed into Paradise because they believed that Jesus died for their sins, nor were the goats cast away because they didn't believe that Jesus died for their sins. They were judged for their actions.

Of course you don't find anything because it isn't there...as I told you. In post #(14) you presented (Ezekiel 18) and (Is. 35) proving God's method for man obtaining eternal salvation. I showed you your error. To which you now agree.

(Ezekiel 18) and (Is. 35) concern temporal salvation. Not salvation pertaining to eternal life.

Eternal salvation is always about 'faith' directed in some way toward Jesus Christ. Before the Law, we find it with Abraham. (Gen. 15:5-6)

Israel under the Law had to keep the Law in order to be in a right relationship with God. Their walk of salvation. They were already saved, eternally, as a people brought out of Egypt due to their faith in providing the blood at the Passover. (Gen. 15:5-6) is clear that eternal salvation is always by faith.

Concerning your statements on the New Testament, give me the verses. Strange isn't it? In your post #(18) you tell me to give you the verses to back this up. Yet you now spout things with no verses mentioned at all. Typical.

Lees

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

In post 15, you wrote this: "The life and death it presents is not eternal life through faith in God. It is following the Law during their day to day life. See (18:5-13)." I quoted Ezekiel 18:5-13 and told you that I can't find such a claim in those verses. Then, in post 21, you say, "Of course you don't find anything because it isn't there...as I told you." Then you claim that you showed me the error and I agree. What error? You are not making any sense.

I assumed that you could find the parable of the sheep and the goats in an online Bible without needing the exact verses, but sure, for the sake of whatever, here are the verses: Matthew 25:31-46. Where does Jesus say that the reason for the goats' damnation is their lack of faith?

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[Lees]

In post 15, you wrote this: "The life and death it presents is not eternal life through faith in God. It is following the Law during their day to day life. See (18:5-13)." I quoted Ezekiel 18:5-13 and told you that I can't find such a claim in those verses. Then, in post 21, you say, "Of course you don't find anything because it isn't there...as I told you." Then you claim that you showed me the error and I agree. What error? You are not making any sense.

I assumed that you could find the parable of the sheep and the goats in an online Bible without needing the exact verses, but sure, for the sake of whatever, here are the verses: Matthew 25:31-46. Where does Jesus say that the reason for the goats' damnation is their lack of faith?

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

(Ezekiel 18) is about Israel under the Law. It deals with individual responsibility under the Law. (18:4-9) "the soul that sinneth it shall die. But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right....Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments...he is just, he shall surely live...." (18:9)

As I said before, this is not about eternal life. It is about the temporal judgements the breaking of the Law will bring upon an individual. Your error was in attributing this as a method of obtaining eternal life. See your last statement in post #(14)

In other words, (Ezekiel 18) is not against an innocent substitute dying for another, as Jesus has done, to obtain eternal salvation. And as I also said, the many sacrifices brought to the altars speak to innocent substitution, pointing to the future Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Yes, I knew the passage you were addressing. But I need to be sure. You want to ask of me where is the Scripture, so I will ask the same of you.

Note first in (Matt. 25:31) that this judgement occurs after Christ's Second Coming. It occurs after the Tribulation period. During the Tribulation the Gospel of the Kingdom is preached throughout the world. (Matt. 24:14) "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." The gospel of the Kingdom is "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2) (4:17) (10:5-7) Those who believe will repent. Those who don't believe, won't repent.

During the Tribulation period the gospel the Church preaches, believe on Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, is over. Ones faith is not represented by believing on the Person of Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Saviour. Their faith is represented by their repentance toward God and how they have treated the Jews, the brethren of Christ. Since the anti-christ is trying to kill all the Jews, only those who believed the gospel of the Kingdom and repented, would help any Jew.

Thus the 'goat nations' represent those nations that rejected that gospel of the Kingdom. Their actions toward the Jews during that period, show they have no faith toward God or the gospel.

Lees