Banned Books

[Jazzy]

Should parents or other adults be able to ban books from schools and libraries?

 

[Josiah]

It's called "age appropriate." And yes, education requires that. As well as good parenting.

It's interesting.... in the People's Republic of California, I cannot take my five-year-old son to a theater showing an X Rated film. It's illegal in California. And he must have parental authorization to view a R rated film. BUT a public school can encourage him to read and veiw an X rated book with a title so obscene that the school district cannot publicly state it, even the title of the book is regarded as not appropriate even for adults. School boards eliminate books that they regard as racist (even one of the Dr. Seuss books is generally banned from public schools in CA) but sex books - they are ALL appropriate for preschoolers on up. No matter what.

 

[tango]

Should parents or other adults be able to ban books from schools and libraries?

I agree with Josiah.

To ban a book from a library intended for adults would require that it be deemed unsuitable for anyone. That should have a very high burden of justification.

Restricting books in schools based on being age appropriate is entirely appropriate. If you go somewhere like the Holocaust Museum there are all sorts of warnings about it being unsuitable for small children. We put ratings on movies, so it's not a huge stretch to put a rating on a book as well.

It's potentially a bit tricker if a school covers a wide age range, and a book appropriate for 17-18 year olds is inappropriate for 10-11 year olds.

Of course there's a difference between restricting something because it's not age-appropriate, and restricting it because it contains something we personally disagree with. If things get banned because one parent dislikes them we can cut to the chase and just ban everything.

 

[Albion]

To ban a book from a library intended for adults would require that it be deemed unsuitable for anyone. That should have a very high burden of justification.

Okay.

Of course there's a difference between restricting something because it's not age-appropriate, and restricting it because it contains something we personally disagree with. If things get banned because one parent dislikes them we can cut to the chase and just ban everything.

In a public library, we'd probably expect information about how to make bombs or books that advocate mass murder would be banned, therefore, and not just because one person (to use your example) filed a formal objection. Is such a policy, therefore, improper? Does it follow that "everything" should be banned?

 

[tango]

In a public library, we'd probably expect information about how to make bombs or books that advocate mass murder would be banned, therefore, and not just because one person (to use your example) filed a formal objection. Is such a policy, therefore, improper? Does it follow that "everything" should be banned?

In a public library I wouldn't necessarily expect a publication titled "How to make bombs and kill people" but it's not difficult to find information on how to make explosives from something like a chemistry reference textbook. I wouldn't expect chemistry books to be banned on the basis some idiot might figure out how to make a bomb by reading it.

You may have noticed my first paragraph talking of a high burden of justification. It's one thing to prohibit a library from carrying videos featuring things like child pornography because that sort of thing is illegal. The contents of a chemistry textbook can be dangerous in the wrong hands, but then so can a sharpened stick. To ban the chemistry textbook should require a higher level of justification than "someone might do something stupid with it".

Even if you want to look at books that advocate mass murder, where would you draw the line. Should people be allowed to read a book like Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf? What exactly counts as "advocating mass murder" and who draws the line? Should the writings of known tyrants be banned, in an attempt to whitewash humanity's darker moments from history, or should we learn from historical tyrants in the hope of not repeating their atrocities, even if some might hold those exact same tyrants in high regard as examples of how to get things done?

 

[Albion]

In a public library I wouldn't necessarily expect a publication titled "How to make bombs and kill people" but it's not difficult to find information on how to make explosives from something like a chemistry reference textbook.

The example I used was about stocking a book that advocated mass murder, not that bombs can kill. Anyway, the point there was that most people understand that a public library should have some limits on what's being explained or promoted. Until recently, we all took this for granted. If another example would work better than the ones I used, then consider them.

 

[tango]

The example I used was about stocking a book that advocated mass murder, not that bombs can kill. Anyway, the point there was that most people understand that a public library should have some limits on what's being explained or promoted. Until recently, we all took this for granted. If another example would work better than the ones I used, then consider them.

Well, I did say that banning a book from an adult library should require a very high burden of justification.

Feel free to refer back to post #3 where I said "To ban a book from a library intended for adults would require that it be deemed unsuitable for anyone. That should have a very high burden of justification."

I have to admit that how you managed to get from there to the idea that no books should ever be banned for any reason isn't entirely clear.

 

[Albion]

Well, I did say that banning a book from an adult library should require a very high burden of justification.

Feel free to refer back to post #3 where I said "To ban a book from a library intended for adults would require that it be deemed unsuitable for anyone. That should have a very high burden of justification."

I have to admit that how you managed to get from there to the idea that no books should ever be banned for any reason isn't entirely clear.

Sure. I'll explain.

Your wording, "very high burden of justification" isn't at all specific, you know. And then you compromised the position you are now saying was yours when you then went on to conclude with this statement--

Of course there's a difference between restricting something because it's not age-appropriate, and restricting it because it contains something we personally disagree with. If things get banned because one parent dislikes them we can cut to the chase and just ban everything.

The idea of banning any reading in a library because "it contains something we personally disagree with" hadn't been part of the discussion, and no one had advocated for that approach.

So it seemed to me that, judging by the above statements, you are opposed to censorship generally, while allowing for a few rare exception(s) so long as they remain only theoretical.

 

[Josiah]

Well, I did say that banning a book from an adult library should require a very high burden of justification.

Feel free to refer back to post #3 where I said "To ban a book from a library intended for adults would require that it be deemed unsuitable for anyone. That should have a very high burden of justification."

I have to admit that how you managed to get from there to the idea that no books should ever be banned for any reason isn't entirely clear.

Interesting...

The city PUBLIC library - accessible by all ages although most kids visit with a parent - has an "ADULT SECTION". You have to walk past a desk and clerk to access that collection. Now, HOW all this works, I don't know because, well.... I've never attempted to access those books. Maybe 5 year olds are patted on the head and told "good for you." Could be.

But at the PUBLIC elementary schools, Kindergarten through 5th grade, 5 to 10 year olds, there is no such section. It's not permitted. ALL kids can fully access ANY book - even those whose very titles are obscene and can't be publicly stated. It's illegal in the People's Republic of California for a SCHOOL to prevent children - of any age - from accessing any book.

 

[Faith]

It's called "age appropriate." And yes, education requires that. As well as good parenting.

It's interesting.... in the People's Republic of California, I cannot take my five-year-old son to a theater showing an X Rated film. It's illegal in California. And he must have parental authorization to view a R rated film. BUT a public school can encourage him to read and veiw an X rated book with a title so obscene that the school district cannot publicly state it, even the title of the book is regarded as not appropriate even for adults. School boards eliminate books that they regard as racist (even one of the Dr. Seuss books is generally banned from public schools in CA) but sex books - they are ALL appropriate for preschoolers on up. No matter what.

Once when our daughter was about 3, I took her to the library and let her pick out books from the childrens section like I always did. When we got home we looked at the books she got. One was about Satanism and IIRC it wasn’t an adult book misfiled, but geared toward kids. I pitched a fit at the librarian.

 

[Faith]

Interesting...

The city PUBLIC library - accessible by all ages although most kids visit with a parent - has an "ADULT SECTION". You have to walk past a desk and clerk to access that collection. Now, HOW all this works, I don't know because, well.... I've never attempted to access those books. Maybe 5 year olds are patted on the head and told "good for you." Could be.

But at the PUBLIC elementary schools, Kindergarten through 5th grade, 5 to 10 year olds, there is no such section. It's not permitted. ALL kids can fully access ANY book - even those whose very titles are obscene and can't be publicly stated. It's illegal in the People's Republic of California for a SCHOOL to prevent children - of any age - from accessing any book.

I remember another time when our daughter was in sixth grade and the Goosebumps books were all the rage. She loved reading but I didn’t want her reading Goosebumps at that age. She mentioned it to her teacher and she told me that he told her to check them out anyway and to not tell me. I probably pitched a fit then too.

 

[Stravinsk]

Should parents or other adults be able to ban books from schools and libraries?

Just accept the fate if you're not willing to fight. Ban books? You mean like what Nazi Germany did with works from the likes of Karl Marx? Oh, those evil Germans...