"A sheep spends its entire life fearing the wolves...

[Lucian Hodoboc]

... only to be eaten by the shepherd in the end."

Food for thought. I've always found the sheep and plants (wheat, trees/fruit etc.) metaphors from the Bible very uncomfortable. They make me perceive God as some sort of omnipotent creature that raises us only to devour us as if we were sheep and plants.

 

[Stravinsk]

The Thief only comes to steal, kill and destroy I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. John 10:10

It wouldn't make much sense to say this if Christ planned on killing the sheep to eat them.

 

[tango]

I think this is the kind of situation where a metaphor can only be pushed so far before it breaks.

The shepherd protects the sheep from predators so that they stay alive. Sure, the shepherd keeps the sheep for some future purpose (meat, wool, whatever) rather than keeping them just for the sake of it but you'd probably struggle to come up with a metaphor that works all the time.

Jesus also said he was the door, but it would be absurd to ask what locking mechanism he had, how many hinges supported him, whether he was partly glazed etc. Likewise it would be silly to discuss whether the "bread of life" was gluten free.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

The Thief only comes to steal, kill and destroy I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. John 10:10

It wouldn't make much sense to say this if Christ planned on killing the sheep to eat them.

Why not? Sheep have life to the full before they're killed and eaten. They get fed, enjoy the sun, get yearly haircuts, get to mate, have most of their basic needs met. Mind you, they get more of their basic needs met than me. If a sheep is sick and constantly bleats because of some type of pain, a good shepherd will call a vet and try to have it healed. That's more than God seems to be doing for me.

And let's not forget the fish comparison. You will be fishers of men? (Matthew 4:19) So, what does that suppose to mean, Jesus? You're gonna fry me and eat me?

The shepherd protects the sheep from predators so that they stay alive. Sure, the shepherd keeps the sheep for some future purpose (meat, wool, whatever) rather than keeping them just for the sake of it but you'd probably struggle to come up with a metaphor that works all the time.

Well, how about Him including something like, "don't eat animals cause I created your species to be vegetarian" in His sermon on the mount, or, better yet, in the 10 commandments?

Jesus also said he was the door, but it would be absurd to ask what locking mechanism he had, how many hinges supported him, whether he was partly glazed etc. Likewise it would be silly to discuss whether the "bread of life" was gluten free.

A religion should not contain metaphors. Period. It should be as clear and uninterpretable as the most rigid math formula.

 

[tango]

Why not? Sheep have life to the full before they're killed and eaten. They get fed, enjoy the sun, get yearly haircuts, get to mate, have most of their basic needs met. Mind you, they get more of their basic needs met than me. If a sheep is sick and constantly bleats because of some type of pain, a good shepherd will call a vet and try to have it healed. That's more than God seems to be doing for me.

And let's not forget the fish comparison. You will be fishers of men? (Matthew 4:19) So, what does that suppose to mean, Jesus? You're gonna fry me and eat me?


Well, how about Him including something like, "don't eat animals cause I created your species to be vegetarian" in His sermon on the mount, or, better yet, in the 10 commandments?

Perhaps because it's OK for us to eat meat? Why would the 10 commandments contain a prohibition that doesn't need to apply?

A religion should not contain metaphors. Period. It should be as clear and uninterpretable as the most rigid math formula.

Your opinion perhaps. How would you explain a principle that is relevant to a 1st century fisherman and also relevant to a 21st century lawyer? If you can't grasp a metaphor that doesn't mean nobody else should be given metaphors.

 

[Stravinsk]

When you responded to my quoting of John 10:10, it seems as if you are not taking what is said there at face value. If one reads the broader context of John chapter 10, it really does not make sense that the shepherd would "lay down his life" for the sheep, if in fact the "gate that leads to life" is really just a gate to a slaughterhouse....

LOL at what you said below regarding "fisher's of men". What was being eaten at the last supper? Men? Fish? All that time 'fishing for men' and they are eating bread and grape juice.

Why not? Sheep have life to the full before they're killed and eaten. They get fed, enjoy the sun, get yearly haircuts, get to mate, have most of their basic needs met. Mind you, they get more of their basic needs met than me. If a sheep is sick and constantly bleats because of some type of pain, a good shepherd will call a vet and try to have it healed. That's more than God seems to be doing for me.

And let's not forget the fish comparison. You will be fishers of men? (Matthew 4:19) So, what does that suppose to mean, Jesus? You're gonna fry me and eat me?

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Perhaps because it's OK for us to eat meat? Why would the 10 commandments contain a prohibition that doesn't need to apply?

Nothing that causes suffering to a living creature cannot be ok. That's just how it is. Killing an animal causes it suffering. Killing an animal when you're starving and have nothing else to eat could be justified as self-preservation. Choosing to eat meat while living in a society where vegetarian food abounds is simply a choice to cause gratuitous suffering, and it cannot be ok.

Your opinion perhaps. How would you explain a principle that is relevant to a 1st century fisherman and also relevant to a 21st century lawyer? If you can't grasp a metaphor that doesn't mean nobody else should be given metaphors.

You would explain it in simple terms that he can understand. Or you would use your omnipotence to make them understand. You know, like Jesus did in Luke 24:45.

And no, actually, that last part is incorrect. The fact that not all people can grasp metaphors does mean that nobody should be given metaphors as part of the divine teachings on how to live their life in a way pleasing to God that will lead to their salvation. If God wants all people to be saved, and if even one person in the world cannot grasp metaphors, then metaphors have no business existing in the interaction between God and humans. There's a reason why all the commandments given in the Old Testament are as clear as possible. Not just the 10 commandments. All of them. They're written as a list of tasks given to a young child, so that there could be no confusion.

When you responded to my quoting of John 10:10, it seems as if you are not taking what is said there at face value. If one reads the broader context of John chapter 10, it really does not make sense that the shepherd would "lay down his life" for the sheep, if in fact the "gate that leads to life" is really just a gate to a slaughterhouse....

I mean, we're talking about a guy who came, made thousands of people confused, was crucified, resurrected, never explained clearly why this had to happen, and then sent one of the most confusing people in the world (Paul) to explain everything to everyone in letters that could be interpreted in numerous ways. I don't expect it to make sense.

 

[tango]

Nothing that causes suffering to a living creature cannot be ok. That's just how it is. Killing an animal causes it suffering. Killing an animal when you're starving and have nothing else to eat could be justified as self-preservation. Choosing to eat meat while living in a society where vegetarian food abounds is simply a choice to cause gratuitous suffering, and it cannot be ok.

Your opinion. On what basis do you get to impose your values on another?

You would explain it in simple terms that he can understand. Or you would use your omnipotence to make them understand. You know, like Jesus did in Luke 24:45.

And no, actually, that last part is incorrect. The fact that not all people can grasp metaphors does mean that nobody should be given metaphors as part of the divine teachings on how to live their life in a way pleasing to God that will lead to their salvation. If God wants all people to be saved, and if even one person in the world cannot grasp metaphors, then metaphors have no business existing in the interaction between God and humans. There's a reason why all the commandments given in the Old Testament are as clear as possible. Not just the 10 commandments. All of them. They're written as a list of tasks given to a young child, so that there could be no confusion.

Perhaps the reason things aren't explicitly spelled out is because some of those things no longer matter.

A lot of what you're writing here sounds as if you expect God to step in and come up with some way to reach every single person directly. When Jesus said "go into the world and preach the gospel" you'd almost be forgiven for thinking the idea was that people might help each other find the message.

Your argument about metaphors falls down completely. You might as well argue that if one person in the world can't read there shouldn't be any form of holy book because that one person can't read it. But, you know, audiobooks exist these days and people can read it to someone else, or explain it, or help the person learn to read, or whatever else.

I mean, we're talking about a guy who came, made thousands of people confused, was crucified, resurrected, never explained clearly why this had to happen, and then sent one of the most confusing people in the world (Paul) to explain everything to everyone in letters that could be interpreted in numerous ways. I don't expect it to make sense.

If you're expecting your promised Messiah to be a great military leader who would overthrow the ruling empire you'd be forgiven for being confused when your man told you to do things like turn the other cheek.

It sounds like you're expecting a list of "do this, don't do that" kind of rules, and regarding the process of salvation as being like navigating a maze where you get to make a certain number of mistakes before the floor falls away and you're forever doomed. The whole point of Jesus coming is that it's not like that at all.

 

[Angel Michael]

Nothing that causes suffering to a living creature cannot be ok. That's just how it is. Killing an animal causes it suffering.

Genesis 9:3 (NIV) states:
"Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything."

What makes you think you know better than God or question his reasons for what he does?

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

What makes you think you know better than God or question his reasons for what he does?

Assessing reality. If a God creates beings capable of experiencing suffering and allows said suffering, then said God is evil.

 

[Angel Michael]

Assessing reality. If a God creates beings capable of experiencing suffering and allows said suffering, then said God is evil.

We are sent on Earth, this is a land of suffering. Those who repent and deserve place in Heaven will enjoy all. That suffering is not reserved only for animals, it is in much bigger picture reserved for us. If animals would not to feel pain, there would be no defense mechanism and all of them would be reckless in their doing. It is just a defense mechanism, to let somebody know when to stop and what not to do.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

We are sent on Earth, this is a land of suffering. Those who repent and deserve place in Heaven will enjoy all.

That sounds like a malefic "Hunger Games" kind of system. Why would we be send to suffer against our will and then rewarded for suffering well? I never signed up for this. I don't want to be part of this system. Why would I be punished for refusing to do something? Do you find that merciful or just?

I never said that suffering was reserved only for animals. I don't understand why you're making that statement. What I've stated was that causing suffering to animals is not ok, so a good God would never allow it.

Why is a defense mechanism necessary? There should be no danger and no suffering, therefore no defense mechanism required.

 

[Angel Michael]

That sounds like a malefic "Hunger Games" kind of system. Why would we be send to suffer against our will and then rewarded for suffering well? I never signed up for this. I don't want to be part of this system. Why would I be punished for refusing to do something? Do you find that merciful or just?

I never said that suffering was reserved only for animals. I don't understand why you're making that statement. What I've stated was that causing suffering to animals is not ok, so a good God would never allow it.

Why is a defense mechanism necessary? There should be no danger and no suffering, therefore no defense mechanism required.

Well, if you follow the laws of God, you won't suffer. However, you will if you don't, but not by his punishment, but by your choice to go astray. More you sin, more you suffer in life. It consumes you. It is not God who punished you. When you are born you have choices, you can have a good life if you chose to.

I explained you why defense mechanism is necessary. If you put hand in fire and there are no pain receptors, your hand would burn. So, it is perfect you have a protection.

Are you one of those vegans who is against animal slaughter or using them as food? It is funny how they always put their nose when they are not welcome. We don't enforce meat on them, but they want to enforce vegan diet on us.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Well, if you follow the laws of God, you won't suffer.

I am living proof that that is not true. For over 5 years I've been trying my best to follow the laws of God. You can find numerous mentions of this throughout my posts in this online community. The more I've tried to obey God, the worse my life got.

Didn't the apostles follow the laws of God? They suffered. Didn't the martyrs from the early centuries follow the laws of God? They suffered.

The claim that the more you sin, the more you suffer in life is a lie. There were plenty of tyrants who didn't suffer, but rather met a quick death.

Don't explain to me why pain receptors are necessary to feel the pain caused by fire. Explain to me why fire was created in such a way as to cause pain. Why can't it exist without causing pain to those that touch it, the same way that air doesn't?

Enforce vegan diet? Do you hear yourself talking? You're literally implying that you're perfectly fine with animals being raised in horrible conditions and slaughtered for no other reason that the enjoyment of your taste buds. You can go into any supermarket in any civilized country and find enough vegetarian food to feed the entire population for decades, yet you choose to eat meat.

If you don't realize why that state of affairs is unmerciful and evil, I don't know what else to tell you.

 

[tango]

Assessing reality. If a God creates beings capable of experiencing suffering and allows said suffering, then said God is evil.

Unless there's a purpose to that suffering that you can't understand because, you know, you aren't God.

 

[Angel Michael]

Enforce vegan diet? Do you hear yourself talking? You're literally implying that you're perfectly fine with animals being raised in horrible conditions and slaughtered for no other reason that the enjoyment of your taste buds. You can go into any supermarket in any civilized country and find enough vegetarian food to feed the entire population for decades, yet you choose to eat meat.

Yes, I can do that with no remorse. That's the issue with vegans, and I am quite sure you are one now. Why can't you eat your diet and leave us eat our diet? Nothing will ever change for your protests. Well, in fact, it will. People will dislike you even more than now. Nobody likes when others try to impose something on them by putting feeling of guilt.

Don't explain to me why pain receptors are necessary to feel the pain caused by fire. Explain to me why fire was created in such a way as to cause pain. Why can't it exist without causing pain to those that touch it, the same way that air does?

Why the world is not made like Harry Potter universe? Why we can't all be warlocks and witches and have an easy life? Your questions are the same as those. Am I God to know his reasons? Sure I am not. Whole universe has it's laws regulated, all works in somewhat equilibrium. If there was no creator, everything would be a chaos and no reasonable universe laws would follow.

I am living proof that that is not true. For over 5 years I've been trying my best to follow the laws of God. You can find numerous mentions of this throughout my posts in this online community. The more I've tried to obey God, the worse my life got.

I can't give you the proper answer for I don't know your personal life story. One can say and think he does good etc. There are plenty of variables to take into the account. And what is it that is worse? What have you done so that it became bad?

Didn't the apostles follow the laws of God? They suffered. Didn't the martyrs from the early centuries follow the laws of God? They suffered.

Suffered by who? Their state of mind and soul is what matters. Physical body is a shell. When somebody puts his faith in God he wouldn't flinch if somebody puts the gun to his face for he knows he will meet the creator.