Is Matthew 24:3-14 coming true?

[Jazzy]

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Lamb]

We have been in the End Times since Jesus ascended into heaven. Practically every generation feels that their time is when Jesus will return. But Jesus says no one will know the hour.

Here are the verses that are the topic of discussion:

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

 

[Castle Church]

We have been in the End Times since Jesus ascended into heaven. Practically every generation feels that their time is when Jesus will return. But Jesus says no one will know the hour.

This 100%

 

[SetFree]

I've got to say it, whether or not those who read this believe me. The majority of what today's Churches teach about Christ's Olivet discourse (Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21), does not 'stay' with the Scripture events as given by Lord Jesus there. His Olivet discourse SIGNS parallel the Seals of Revelation 6, and they have yet to happen today.

Christ's teaching about the generation of the parable of the fig tree is about the FINAL generation that will actually 'see' His future return. A careful, very careful reading of what Jesus actually said in Matthew 24:32-35 reveals the 'generation' He was pointing to is the one that He said, "when ye shall see all things" to. See all what things? Those 7 main SIGNS of the end leading up to His future return. That's the "things" He was talking about for the final generation.

So don't allow any man to deceive you, He warned.

Then would the event of Jesus' future coming and gathering of His saints be one of those "things" He said that generation would "see"? Yeah, of course, and did that happen already? NO! of course not!

Thus anyone today who simply passes those Olivet discourse SIGNS off as past history are merely heeding men's traditions that came from one of the pop seminaries.

I would be glad to reveal those 7 main SIGNS of the end in parallel to Christ's Seals of Rev.6 to anyone that asks.

And just so one knows, I am a Protestant Christian, and I keep to God's Word as written, and disregard pop seminary traditions that go against His Word. I believe Lord Jesus Who revealed His coming will be AFTER... the tribulation He warned us about (means I believe in a Post-tribulational coming of Christ Jesus and gathering of the Church). I am not a Dispensationalist, for those are of the pre-tribulationalist sort. I am not a Preterist, which believes Matthew 24 was mostly fulfilled in 70 A.D. I am not a Historicist, which sees most of The Bible as fulfilled, except for Christ's future coming. I definitely am not an Amillennialist, which believes there is no "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect beginning at His future return.

 

[Lees]

What are your thoughts on this?

Of course (Matt. 24:3-14) is coming true. Our present day history is always leading up to this. Whether today is the day, or tomorrow is the day is immaterial. This is where we are headed.

@Lamb doesn't distinguish between the Rapture and the 2nd Coming, and so mocks the prophetic portions of Scripture. I don't see anywhere in (Matt. 24) where the exact date is given. Knowing prophetic Scripture doens't mean you have to give an exact date....that you have to be that generation. And ignoring prophetic Scripture doesn't mean you are all the more 'spiritual'. It just means you are ignorant of the Scripture. We who are the Church should anticipate the Rapture at any moment. But...do we?

Why would Jesus say in (Matt. 24:15) "whoso readeth, let him understand". Why are we told in (Rev. 1:3), "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy"

Appears to me that Jesus wants us to know. How does it appear to you?

Lees

 

[Lamb]

Of course (Matt. 24:3-14) is coming true. Our present day history is always leading up to this. Whether today is the day, or tomorrow is the day is immaterial. This is where we are headed.

@Lamb doesn't distinguish between the Rapture and the 2nd Coming, and so mocks the prophetic portions of Scripture. I don't see anywhere in (Matt. 24) where the exact date is given. Knowing prophetic Scripture doens't mean you have to give an exact date....that you have to be that generation. And ignoring prophetic Scripture doesn't mean you are all the more 'spiritual'. It just means you are ignorant of the Scripture. We who are the Church should anticipate the Rapture at any moment. But...do we?

Why would Jesus say in (Matt. 24:15) "whoso readeth, let him understand". Why are we told in (Rev. 1:3), "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy"

Appears to me that Jesus wants us to know. How does it appear to you?

Lees

The Rapture according to the Left Behind books is a modern theory. When Jesus returns, it will be Judgment Day and that's according to the scriptures, which means I'm not ignorant of scriptures or history.

 

[Lees]

We have been in the End Times since Jesus ascended into heaven. Practically every generation feels that their time is when Jesus will return. But Jesus says no one will know the hour.

The Rapture according to the Left Behind books is a modern theory. When Jesus returns, it will be Judgment Day and that's according to the scriptures, which means I'm not ignorant of scriptures or history.

What do you base our being in the 'end times' since Jesus went to Heaven?

Your statement that every generation believes theirs is the one when Jesus returns, is confusing. Why? Because you reject the Rapture and thus you can only mean the 2nd Coming of Christ. If that is the case, then there is no need for any to anticipate the 2nd Coming at this time because the Temple doesn't exist, and it must exist. (Dan. 9:27) Plus all the events surrounding the Tribulation must first take place before the 2nd coming of Christ to the earth.

In other words, you have no reason to watch for Christ's return. Correct? If you say you do watch, what are you watching for?

The Rapture is as modern as the New Testament. The Church of Jesus Christ is as modern as the New Testament. The doctrine of the Trinity is as modern as the New Testament. I guess the Trinity is a 'theory' also?

Lees

 

[Albion]

We have been in the End Times since Jesus ascended into heaven. Practically every generation feels that their time is when Jesus will return. But Jesus says no one will know the hour.

That just about sums up the matter, all right.

 

[SetFree]

The second coming of Christ is... the day of the so-called rapture of His saints to Him on his way to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem.

The problem some folks have is listening to men's false leaven doctrines like a false pre-trib rapture, instead of staying in God's Word, as there is NO WORD 'rapture' written in the New Testament.

That word 'rapture' comes from a Latin translation of the Greek word 'harpazo' which IS... written in The New Testament and translated to English as "caught up" (KJV, 1 Thess.4:17).

So the false pre-tribber's try the vain ploy of lying and saying those who don't accept their false pre-trib rapture theory don't believe in a rapture. It's kind of like the old trap questions like, "are you still beating your wife?" Evil ploys like that only show how demented and evil thinking many on the false pre-trib rapture theory are; they lie on purpose whenever it serves their purpose. There is no Truth in them, thus they will be deceived at the end.

 

[Lamb]

The second coming of Christ is... the day of the so-called rapture of His saints to Him on his way to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem.

The problem some folks have is listening to men's false leaven doctrines like a false pre-trib rapture, instead of staying in God's Word, as there is NO WORD 'rapture' written in the New Testament.

That word 'rapture' comes from a Latin translation of the Greek word 'harpazo' which IS... written in The New Testament and translated to English as "caught up" (KJV, 1 Thess.4:17).

So the false pre-tribber's try the vain ploy of lying and saying those who don't accept their false pre-trib rapture theory don't believe in a rapture. It's kind of like the old trap questions like, "are you still beating your wife?" Evil ploys like that only show how demented and evil thinking many on the false pre-trib rapture theory are; they lie on purpose whenever it serves their purpose. There is no Truth in them, thus they will be deceived at the end.

The term rapture is in the bible, but the concept like the Left Behind series, is NOT biblical. We've had this discussion here on CH before, so I don't want to derail this thread debating it.

 

[Ammi]

I've waited for the Lord to teach me about the rapture, but He hasn't. I've read the passage many times. I've seen many argue over it. So, I've decided to let the subject be, and if He wants to show me something about it, I'm sure He will. I have asked Him about it. He'll come back when He comes back. That's good enough for me. My attitude bothers some people, but it doesn't bother me.

 

[SetFree]

The term rapture is in the bible, but the concept like the Left Behind series, is NOT biblical. We've had this discussion here on CH before, so I don't want to derail this thread debating it.

And I don't care to debate over the word 'rapture' either, which is not in the Greek New Testament text.

 

[SetFree]

The Rapture according to the Left Behind books is a modern theory. When Jesus returns, it will be Judgment Day and that's according to the scriptures, which means I'm not ignorant of scriptures or history.

If you are referring to God's Great White Throne Judgment of Rev.20 as your "Judgment Day" that happens after the "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect that begins at His future return. So really, the "Judgment Day" does not happen on the day of Christ's future return, but after the proclaimed 1,000 years of Rev.20. I wouldn't want to mislead any brethren from that Biblical Truth.

 

[Lamb]

If you are referring to God's Great White Throne Judgment of Rev.20 as your "Judgment Day" that happens after the "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect that begins at His future return. So really, the "Judgment Day" does not happen on the day of Christ's future return, but after the proclaimed 1,000 years of Rev.20. I wouldn't want to mislead any brethren from that Biblical Truth.

I'm Amilennial
D. Amillennialism An eschatology which does not teach a literal thousand-year earthly reign of Christ may be called "amillennialist" (sometimes called "realized millennialism" because the period spoken of in Revelation 20 is now in the process of realization). Although the detailed exegesis of the pertinent texts may vary somewhat among amillennialist Christians, those who adhere to this position agree that the "thousand-year" reference in Revelation 20 is a figurative expression for the present reign of Christ which began upon His ascension into heaven and will be fully manifested at His second coming. Christ's second coming will be one event at which time He will, in the words of Martin Luther, "raise up me and all the dead, and give unto me and all believers in Christ eternal life" (Explanation to Third Article of the Apostles' Creed). The eschatology presented in The Lutheran Confessions is clearly amillennialist (AC XVII).

The End Times (1) -- LCMS

 

[SetFree]

I'm Amilennial
D. Amillennialism An eschatology which does not teach a literal thousand-year earthly reign of Christ may be called "amillennialist" (sometimes called "realized millennialism" because the period spoken of in Revelation 20 is now in the process of realization). Although the detailed exegesis of the pertinent texts may vary somewhat among amillennialist Christians, those who adhere to this position agree that the "thousand-year" reference in Revelation 20 is a figurative expression for the present reign of Christ which began upon His ascension into heaven and will be fully manifested at His second coming. Christ's second coming will be one event at which time He will, in the words of Martin Luther, "raise up me and all the dead, and give unto me and all believers in Christ eternal life" (Explanation to Third Article of the Apostles' Creed). The eschatology presented in The Lutheran Confessions is clearly amillennialist (AC XVII).

The End Times (1) -- LCMS

I'm well familiar with the 2nd century Gnostic doctrine of Amillennialism. It is not Biblical.

The "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect begins on the day of His future return. The wicked will still exist under that literal time of His future reign over the nations on earth.

That doctrine was not held by the 1st century Church fathers. In the 2nd century A.D. is when the so-called Christian Gnostics began creeping into the Church, and that doctrine was from them.

That "thousand years" of Revelation 20 is referenced in the Old Testament prophets also, per its 'events', not by the number 1,000.

Isa 24:21-23
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before His ancients gloriously.
KJV


Amillennialism declares God's GWT Judgment and "lake of fire" destruction event is to happen on the day of Christ's future return. The following Scripture destroys that idea...

Zech 14:16-17
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
KJV

Likewise, so does the Revelation 3:9 verse destroy man's theory of Amillennialism about the wicked being destroyed on the day of Christ's return. That verse reveals the wicked of the "synagogue of Satan" will be made to bow at the feet of Christ's elect in worship in that future time after Jesus' future return. Also Rev.22:14-15 reveals the wicked still exist on earth while the holy city, God's River and the Tree of life are manifested on earth.

Lord Jesus also revealed the wicked are still existing after Christ's future return per John 5:28-29 regarding the "resurrection of damnation". Apostle Paul also revealed that Christ must reign over all His enemies with their being made His footstool before the full Godhead will return, per 1 Cor.15:23-28.

Therefore, there's too many Bible Scriptures one must deny in order to keep that Amillennial Gnostic theory.

 

[Messy]

-

 

[SetFree]

I think it's pretrib or at least prewrath, cause it makes no sense for a bridegroom to throw hail on his bride. Michael Brown said posttrib, cause he thinks it's nasty to leave Israel alone, but they get a place in the desert and it's a time of Jacob's trouble. He had a text from Revelation that this was the first raising of the dead at the end when Jesus comes, so that's one reason he believes this, but I looked it up.

I suggest you quit listening to men, and stay with what God's Word teaches as written. Jesus showed His coming to gather His saints is AFTER the tribulation (Matthew 29-31 and Mark 13:24-27).

And that is actually aligned with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the "caught up" (i.e., rapture). Paul showed in 1 Thess.4:16 that the 'asleep' saints must be resurrected first, so when does that happen per God's Word? On the last day of this world, which is after the tribulation like Jesus said (John 6:39).

So there's really no need to argue with those folks who are NOT staying with Bible Scripture. And we as Christians should be very suspicious of someone claiming to be a Bible teacher that is not staying with God's written Word. So once one knows when Jesus showed His time of coming to gather His Church is, then anyone preaching a different time, you know is not staying with God's Word as written, and those will have their reward.

Revelation 20

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

So it says only the ones who get beheaded in the trib get raised here. The rest has to wait another 1000 years.

That above Rev.20 Scripture covers both the Old Testament saints that were persecuted or killed for The Word of God, and Christ's servants at the end that are persecuted for Christ with giving a Testimony for Him against the beast.

The "dead" of Rev.5 is often misunderstood for that future time. That is pointing to the unsaved "resurrection of damnation" that are raised on the day of Jesus' coming (per John 5:28-29), and the unsaved nations that go through Christ's future "thousand years" reign, per Zechariah 14.

In that future world, on the day of Christ's coming, Apostle Paul taught those alive on earth will be 'changed' "at the twinkling of an eye" to their "spiritual body". That applies to the wicked also, but that 'change' does not mean automatic Salvation like most wrongly teach. The unsaved will be changed to their "spiritual body", but still have 'mortal' souls that have not "put on immortality". Only those in Christ of the "first resurrection" will have put on immortality and never be subject to the "second death" on that day of Christ's return.

Anything else you struggle with?

 

[Lees]

I suggest you quit listening to men, and stay with what God's Word teaches as written. Jesus showed His coming to gather His saints is AFTER the tribulation (Matthew 29-31 and Mark 13:24-27).

And that is actually aligned with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the "caught up" (i.e., rapture). Paul showed in 1 Thess.4:16 that the 'asleep' saints must be resurrected first, so when does that happen per God's Word? On the last day of this world, which is after the tribulation like Jesus said (John 6:39).

So there's really no need to argue with those folks who are NOT staying with Bible Scripture. And we as Christians should be very suspicious of someone claiming to be a Bible teacher that is not staying with God's written Word. So once one knows when Jesus showed His time of coming to gather His Church is, then anyone preaching a different time, you know is not staying with God's Word as written, and those will have their reward.



That above Rev.20 Scripture covers both the Old Testament saints that were persecuted or killed for The Word of God, and Christ's servants at the end that are persecuted for Christ with giving a Testimony for Him against the beast.

The "dead" of Rev.5 is often misunderstood for that future time. That is pointing to the unsaved "resurrection of damnation" that are raised on the day of Jesus' coming (per John 5:28-29), and the unsaved nations that go through Christ's future "thousand years" reign, per Zechariah 14.

In that future world, on the day of Christ's coming, Apostle Paul taught those alive on earth will be 'changed' "at the twinkling of an eye" to their "spiritual body". That applies to the wicked also, but that 'change' does not mean automatic Salvation like most wrongly teach. The unsaved will be changed to their "spiritual body", but still have 'mortal' souls that have not "put on immortality". Only those in Christ of the "first resurrection" will have put on immortality and never be subject to the "second death" on that day of Christ's return.

Anything else you struggle with?

What do you mean (Matt. 29-31)? And, (Mark 13:24-27) speaks to the 2nd Coming of Christ. Not the Rapture. And the Rapture is what Messy said was 'pre-trib'.

(John 6:39) doesn't say anything about the 'Tribulation' period. You need to define the 'last day'. The last days of the Church are not the same as the 'last days' of Israel. And, you need to define which 'resurrections' you speak of, as there are more than one, or two.

(Rev. 20:4-6) speaks to those believers who were martyred during the Tribulation, not all of the Old Testament saints. There are only 2 clasifications of 'Resurrection'. The saved and the lost. The first and the other. But there are several resurrections identified in Scripture that come under those headings. In other words, the term 'first' resurrection, is used in the ordinal sense. All resurrections of the saved are part of the first resurrection.

What 'dead' are you talking about in (Rev. 5). Chapter and verse. (John 5:28-29) identifies the two classes of resurrection as I mentioned earlier. The first and the other....the resurrection of the saved and the resurrection of the damned. But, they are not one single event in time.

The unsaved are not raptured. Only the Church is raptured in (1 Thess. 4:13-18). You confuse here the Rapture, the 2nd Coming, and the resurrection of the unsaved.

Lees

 

[SetFree]

What do you mean (Matt. 29-31)? And, (Mark 13:24-27) speaks to the 2nd Coming of Christ. Not the Rapture. And the Rapture is what Messy said was 'pre-trib'.

Man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory is what wrongly teaches 2 comings by Lord Jesus at the end of this world, which is NOT written. That's the idea you are pointing to, which is not written in God's Word. Jesus comes only ONE TIME to gather His saints, and it will be AFTER... the tribulation like He said in those Matthew 24 and Mark 13 chapters.

Lord Jesus covered both, the gathering of the 'asleep' saints He brings with Him, AND... the gathering of the saints still alive on the day of His coming, in His Olivet discourse. It's just that the Matt.24:31 version covers about the 'asleep' saints being gathered from Heaven, while the Mark 13:27 version covers the saints still alive on earth being gathered from the earth, what you call the 'rapture'.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

What Jesus covered there is actually... what Apostle Paul covered in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the day of Christ's coming to gather His Church...


1 Thess 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

Per the above 1 Thessalonians 4 Scripture:

1. those which sleep in Jesus He will bring with Him. That means they are first gathering in... Heaven, just like Matthew 24:31 reveals.

2. we which are alive and remain til Christ's coming shall not precede (KJV "prevent" means 'precede' per the New Testament Greek), the asleep saints. They are already there with Jesus. That is how He brings them with Him when He comes.

3. the dead in Christ shall resurrect first. That means the 'resurrection' at the END of this world, the LAST DAY. I gave proof of that in my previous post. That means the asleep saints MUST rise first and gathered in Heaven first. This actually gives the TIMING OF CHRIST'S COMING to gather His Church to be on the LAST DAY of this world, which is when the resurrection of John 5:28-29 will happen.

4. On that same LAST DAY when the asleep saints are resurrected, and then gathered from Heaven, then we which are still alive on earth will be "caught up" (i.e., the rapture) to meet Jesus AND them, in the air.

Thus Apostle Paul taught the SAME timing and events of the gathering of the saints that Lord Jesus did!

The problem with men's false Pre-trib Rapture Theory is they are not staying with what is actually written in God's Word. Instead, those preachers are simply 'playing' Church, and deceiving those who don't actually study God's Word for theirselves.

 

[SetFree]

(John 6:39) doesn't say anything about the 'Tribulation' period. You need to define the 'last day'. The last days of the Church are not the same as the 'last days' of Israel. And, you need to define which 'resurrections' you speak of, as there are more than one, or two.

That's an old ploy the Pre-trib Rapture theory of men like to use, i.e., confuse the time of the future resurrection. The John 6:39 verse is only one proof, by Lord Jesus, that the future resurrection is on the LAST DAY of this present world, and certainly cannot be confused with some 'latter days' metaphor like you're vainly trying to impose into that Scripture.

John 5:28-29 is proof of Christ's coming on the day of the future resurrection, because He declares both the "resurrection of life" AND the "resurrection of damnation" happening on that day. And only a worker of the devil would try to say those resurrection events have already happened, or happen before the time of "great tribulation" or even during it. And you can't claim one without the other there in John 5:28-29, both resurrection types happen on that day when ALL come out of their graves, like Jesus said there.

Per John 6:44, Lord Jesus even reveals in connection with the resurrection on the LAST DAY, 'eternal life' will be given to His servants on that day. Until that day, we only have the Promise of eternal life. It does not go into effect until the day of His future return when the "resurrection of life" happens (the 'asleep' saints must rise first, remember?).

John 12:48 reveals the 'judgment' happens at the LAST DAY. How can anyone say that "last day" means some other time than when Jesus returns and judges the world? So these Scriptures of what Lord Jesus and His Apostles reveal about the "last day" is definitely pointing to the FINAL day of this world when Jesus comes and the future resurrection happens on that day.

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV