Christians and War.

[1689Dave]

Do you think Christ would have believers kill enemies in war? Or for any reason? Is there any situation where disobeying Christ and killing enemies is acceptable?

 

[SetFree]

Did you never read the following that He said in Luke 22?

Luke 22:35-36
35 And He said unto them, "When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing?" And they said, "Nothing."
36 Then said He unto them, "But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
KJV

The preacher in the Protestant Church system I was raised in somehow missed preaching about that!

Why would Lord Jesus seem to counter what He commanded us about loving our enemies by saying the above? In reality He wasn't countering what He said about offering the other cheek, and loving our enemies. Sometimes our enemies need some 'tough love' to get them back on the straight and narrow.

And if we are preaching The Gospel, and someone comes up and slaps us on the face for it, that is the situation when we are commanded to offer the cheek also. But that is not a life or death situation.

But if we see a murderer coming up to mug us, or kill us, then He gave us the right to be armed and defend ourselves, our loved ones, our homes, and even our country. And thus His command to His disciples in the above Luke 22 Scripture. He was sending them on the open road to preach The Gospel and gave them to right to protect themselves.

The American founding fathers understood this principle, which is why the language in the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution says the right of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed.

The false teaching today that we are not to arm or defend ourselves is coming from the Leftist-Communist theory. In documentation of ex-Soviet defectors to the U.S., like Golitsyn who wrote New Lies For Old in 1984, and predicted that in the Communist 3rd phase against the West they might allow the Berlin Wall to come down. He revealed that disarmament was a specific strategy from the Communist goals for world takeover, and such ideas were to be preached in the Christian Church.

 

[Messy]

I don't know. Corrie ten Boom was asked to kill a police man who was a traitor in WWII, but she said: I may not kill. But what if the Americans, Canadians and British hadn't saved us and all those Jews, by throwing bombs, I don't think that was a sin. A WWII veteran, a christian dad from a guy I know, still says he wished they had also freed North Korea, but they weren't allowed to.

 

[heavenslight]

The early Christian Church prior to Constantine was pacifist. Pacifism was later replaced by the Just War Doctrine.

 

[Albion]

The early Christian Church prior to Constantine was pacifist. Pacifism was later replaced by the Just War Doctrine.

That's true, but it has to be taken with a grain of practicality. The early church was pacifistic, mainly because it was on the run and being persecuted by pagan political rulers. Later, after Christianity had been officially granted toleration--and then made the official religion of the Empire!--the attitude changed. This development was not entirely a matter of theology.

 

[Messy]

It was okay in the O.T. For Jews it's still okay.

 

[SetFree]

The early Christian Church prior to Constantine was pacifist. Pacifism was later replaced by the Just War Doctrine.

So Jesus didn't tell His disciples in Luke 22 to go BUY A SWORD for those who didn't have one??

Do you think your above statement actually is true, since Jesus gave His servants the right to defend themselves? You made it as an anti-war political ploy, did you not?

 

[SetFree]

Some need reminding what kind of God we serve, because of the Communists that have the plan to creep into the Churches to push disarmament propaganda (see Cleon Skousen's 45 Communist strategic points for takeover of the west in his 1958 book, The Naked Communist.

Ex 15:3-7
3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is His name.

4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath He cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.

5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.

6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: Thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

7 And in the greatness of Thine excellency Thou hast overthrown them that rose up against Thee: Thou sentest forth Thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble.
KJV

Hopefully I need not remind folks that God is going to bring His consuming fire on the last day of this present world, and burn man's works off this earth (2 Peter 3:10). And Lord Jesus is coming in our near future wielding a sword, and not a powder puff (Rev.19). So don't think that God has somehow changed from that time in Exodus when He destroyed Pharaoh's host.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Sometimes our enemies need some 'tough love' to get them back on the straight and narrow.

How do we determine which times they need "tough love" and which times we have to turn the other cheek and walk with them 2 miles if they force us to walk 1 mile?

 

[heavenslight]

It seems to me this thread has become somewhat contentious and I will most likely cease any further posts.

Constantine, according to tradition, had a dream in which Jesus told him that if he employed the cross he would have victory against a rival contender to the throne of the Roman Empire, Maxentius. Constantine had crosses inscribed on the shields of his soldiers and he defeated Maxentius at the Battle of Milvian Bridge early in the fourth century. Persecutions against Christians ceased and Christianity was eventually granted favored status across the Roman Empire. This was the beginning of the end of much of Christian pacifism. Around this time St Augustine also formulated the doctrine of the just war.

There however, have always been groups of Christians who have adhered to pacifist beliefs, Anabaptists, Quakers and some early Pentecostals.

I personally have difficulty with complete pacifism. What, for example, would have been the result if no one took up arms to stop Hitler?

Anabaptist pacifism was criticized in the 16'th century at the time when the Ottoman Empire was threatening to conquer all of Europe and impose Islam.

 

[Albion]

It seems to me this thread has become somewhat contentious and I will most likely cease any further posts.

Constantine, according to tradition, had a dream in which Jesus told him that if he employed the cross he would have victory against a rival contender to the throne of the Roman Empire, Maxentius. Constantine had crosses inscribed on the shields of his soldiers and he defeated Maxentius at the Battle of Milvian Bridge early in the fourth century. Persecutions against Christians ceased and Christianity was eventually granted favored status across the Roman Empire. This was the beginning of the end of much of Christian pacifism. Around this time St Augustine also formulated the doctrine of the just war.

There however, have always been groups of Christians who have adhered to pacifist beliefs, Anabaptists, Quakers and some early Pentecostals.

That's correct, but I missed the reason you outlined all of it in your post, particularly since I had referred to the same sequence of events. The fact remains that the Christian community was pacifistic when it was the victim of governmental violence and later changed that stance after becoming the official religion of the same government and was no longer the target. That's just something to keep in mind when attempting to explain why the Church took the position(s) it did.

 

[SetFree]

The early Christian Church prior to Constantine was pacifist. Pacifism was later replaced by the Just War Doctrine.

So Jesus commanding His disciples in Luke 22 to go buy a sword for those who did not have one, is pacifist doctrine?? WOW! didn't know that.

 

[SetFree]

Brethren, don't get caught up in the anti-war-hippie-peace-love dove Liberal-Leftist attitudes.

The present world is about SPIRITUAL WAR mainly. And at times that translates into physical war on this earth. That is how God setup this PRESENT 2ND WORLD EARTH AGE. And of course it is not going to stay this way, because He has pre-ordained this present world to be destroyed eventually.

But while this present world exists, it is important to remember how He set it up per His Word, and this concerns the enmity He put between the seed of the serpent (devil) and the Seed of the Woman (God's servants). Thus His servants, in Christ Jesus, are to make a STAND for Him. For some of His servants that 'stand' means preaching The Gospel, for others it means providing for the poor and elderly, and for others it means national defense!

 

[Albion]

So Jesus commanding His disciples in Luke 22 to go buy a sword for those who did not have one, is pacifist doctrine?? WOW! didn't know that..

Well, the point that was made concerned the attitude of the Christian churches. Whether they were in step with Our Lord's own thinking and teaching would be a different issue.

 

[SetFree]

Well, the point that was made concerned the attitude of the Christian churches. Whether they were in step with Our Lord's own thinking and teaching would be a different issue.

You just contradicted yourself when you tried to cast doubt on whether Lord Jesus approved of His disciples buying a sword that did not have one.

Lord Jesus 'commanded' His disciples, who didn't have a sword, to go buy one. That was not about a 'turn the other cheek' situation. So it is error to try and apply that there in Luke 22 involving His command to buy a sword.

What His command to go buy a sword represents is a God-given right for His servants to defend theirselves against His enemies, including future enemies.

And if you are one of those confused individuals that think Exodus 20:13 which says, "thou shalt not kill" (KJV) literally means not to kill in war or in any other situation, then you need to go to the Hebrew of that passage, because it means HOMICIDE, i.e., MURDER. Thou shall do no murder is the proper translation, which Lord Jesus said in Matthew 19 that was properly translated.

And the stance that Lord Jesus DID NOT give God's people authority to bear arms, and defend oneself, would fit today's long-range Communist strategy against the Western Christian nations, pushing disarmament and pacifist dogma. The ex-KGB defector to the U.S., Anatoliy Golitsyn covered this point in the Soviet Communist's long-range 1958 strategy against the West, in his 1984 book New Lies For Old. So my suggestion is for those on that Communist strategy being pushed in many Churches today, to get off it, and come back into God's Word as written, and Christ's command to go buy a sword!

 

[Albion]

You just contradicted yourself when you tried to cast doubt on whether Lord Jesus approved of His disciples buying a sword that did not have one.

Are you that confused?

There was nothing in my post that amounted to casting doubt on what the Lord said there. You probably would like for there to have been such a point made in my reply so that you could then lecture the forum on Communism and today's churches, etc., but it wasn't part of my post.

 

[Ammi]

I believe that there is a just war, as WW2 was for the Allies.
I believe that there is an unjust war, as our involvement in Ukraine is.

 

[Albion]

I believe that there is an unjust war, as our involvement in Ukraine is.

Why would our involvement, such as it is, be immoral? I'm just curious about the reasoning.

 

[Ammi]

I didn't use the word immoral; you did. I said unjust. NATO insisted on expanding east when they told Russia they wouldn't. With the threat of NATO missiles a few minutes from Russian nukes if they were placed in Ukraine. Remember the Cuban missile crises? We are such hypocrites!
Then there's the 14,000 dead Russian-speaking Ukrainians. I've never been a supporter of Russia, but I believe they are justified here.
I am a conservative Christian but I can't support this unnecessary war that is being prosecuted by men such as Biden. In my eyes, they are a wicked lot whose government is illegal. And all the fake news in the world won't change my mind.
I am almost completely housebound, have been for years and all I do is watch the internet. Before I started doing this I was a Liberal who voted for Trudeau. But what I've seen has changed me. Most people don't have the time or desire to pay attention to the dirty tricks the MSM play. I do. I know what's going on...do you?

 

[Albion]

I didn't use the word immoral; you did. I said unjust.

Very well, let's go with unjust. What's the answer?

NATO insisted on expanding east when they told Russia they wouldn't.

"Expanding East" but not including Ukrainian territory or membership. What's more, Russia had already initiated hostilities between these two countries by annexing the Ukrainian territory of Crimea by force in 2014.

I have to conclude that there's something lacking in the explanation, but I asked for your thinking and you gave it in reply. So, thank you for that,

In closing, I might add that you started off by saying this--

I believe that there is a just war, as WW2 was for the Allies.

Your reasoning in the case of Ukraine and Russia would apply equally well to WW2, yet you reached the opposite conclusion in the case of that earlier war.