Pilate’s regret

Lees

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Correction: God allowed this man to be blind. There's a big difference there. Recognizing this one difference would get us past a lot of the "why why why" posting that we encounter.

There is a reason that sickness and misfortune are part of the human existence, and every Christian should be aware of what that is. As a result of it then, what angers people is God not intervening to change the consequences of sin, make everything whole, and do so in every instance. They are also thinking that if he does not do so, then he's the cause of their infirmity or misfortune!

Yes, we Christians love that word 'allow'. It helps us defend God by removing the responsibility away from Him.

But if you trace it back....what is the difference? If you say 'allow' you're admitting God knew about it but did nothing to stop it. Did God have the power to stop it? Of course He did, and does. But He didn't. For His glory. "...but that the works of God should be made manifest in him." (John 9:3)

Trace it all the way back to the Garden with Adam and Eve. Did God allow Satan in the garden? Did God allow the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to be in the garden.? God is not afraid to bear the responsibility. Why do we feel we must protect Him.

Lees
 

Albion

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Again, the distinction I made, which you highlighted in post #(37), is very different. You say there is not much difference, but there is.

No. There are two opposing views concerning gifts of the Holy Spirit in the Church. And they are in opposition to each other. One views the gifts have ceased. One believes the gifts still exist.
That's the kind of statement that I feel needs to be retired. I hear it a lot, but the fact is that there are more than two views concerning this matter, and although there probably are some people who would agree that "the gifts have ceased," what is believed by most Christians is that they have become special and not commonplace, and that God still does on occasion extend all of the gifts mentioned in Corinthians. At one point in time, the gifts (especially perhaps Tongues) were critical to securing the faith in a pagan world, but after Christianity triumphed, the need sharply declined and so did the evidence of the gifts. But that isn't to say that the gifts ceased totally. A little study of church history will show that it was acknowledged by the Church as well.

What's more, the distinction here is important in view of the fact that most of the pentecostal/charismatic people and churches take the view that anybody can get this and other gifts if they know how to go about it. Their preachers will even coach them. Many of these folks also think that this makes them more authentic as Christians than other Christians are.


As I said before, it doesn't matter who is in the majority. That proves nothing.
I'd agree. And we'd all be seeing eye to eye here IF it were not for the posts I have read that make no apologies for talking as though Christians who don't imitate tongues or talk themselves into believing that they routinely receive "words of knowledge," etc. are therefore the "real" Christians, unlike everyone else.
 
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Messy

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The point was Jesus didn't heal everyone. There was a multitude of sick, impotent, blind, halt, and crippled who needed and wanted healing. We are not told that any of them were healed at all. Jesus could have healed all of them. But He didn't. He picked one man. And this mans disease was a result of his sins. (John 5:14) Which is one reason not all our healed.

As to the man in (John 9:1-15) who was born blind, Jesus said, "...Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him." Sounds like God was behind it to me.

No, if God gives a sickness and later heals a sickness doesn't mean He is divided. It means He will get what He wants by giving the sickness and then heals it. If in fact He does heal it. He may not.



Lees
But then you never know if God is willing to heal you today, so how on earth can you then heal the sick in His Name or stand in faith for Him to want to heal you or someone else?

Hebrews 11
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Matthew 10
Heal the sick, [d]cleanse the lepers, [e]raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
 

Messy

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That's the kind of statement that I feel needs to be retired. I hear it a lot, but the fact is that there are more than two views concerning this matter, and although there probably are some people who would agree that "the gifts have ceased," what is believed by most Christians is that they have become special and not commonplace, and that God still does on occasion extend all of the gifts mentioned in Corinthians. At one point in time, the gifts (especially perhaps Tongues) were critical to securing the faith in a pagan world, but after Christianity triumphed, the need sharply declined and so did the evidence of the gifts. But that isn't to say that the gifts ceased totally. A little study of church history will show that it was acknowledged by the Church as well.

What's more, the distinction here is important in view of the fact that most of the pentecostal/charismatic people and churches take the view that anybody can get this and other gifts if they know how to go about it. Their preachers will even coach them. Many of these folks also think that this makes them more authentic as Christians than other Christians are.



I'd agree. And we'd all be seeing eye to eye here IF it were not for the posts I have read that make no apologies for talking as though Christians who don't imitate tongues or talk themselves into believing that they routinely receive "words of knowledge," etc. are therefore the "real" Christians, unlike everyone else.
That's dumb cause the fruit matters, not the leaves. Have we not done many miracles in Your Name? I never knew you. Judas healed the sick too. It's just a gift that says nothing about someone's character.
But that's no reason to dismiss it. Calvin also thought he was superior.

Cessationism is a doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy, and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age. The doctrine was developed in the reformation and is particularly associated with the Calvinists.
 

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I had 2 collegues. Both had prostate cancer. One was a christian. One was an atheist. I prayed and fasted a year for the christian. Then I finally had the courage to ask if we could come over, which was fine, but when we said we wanted to pray for him cause God surely wanted to heal him, he and his wife got very mad. No way. A few months later he died. I got no permission and you always have to ask permission because God is a gentleman. I asked the atheist, who photoshopped his face out of some church thing my ex made to get em saved. He wanted nothing to do with God or a church. So I asked him if we could pray for him. He said: aww that's so sweet from you. Thank you. He got healed. The other one was a great guy too. He could have been healed, but they lied to them in church. Well he's in heaven, so whatever. Good that the atheist got healed. Gives him more time to repent.
 

Albion

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Cessationism is a doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy, and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age. The doctrine was developed in the reformation and is particularly associated with the Calvinists.
You are wrong about much of that.

But of course it is essential--to Pentecostals--to keep saying and believing in the scenario you have repeated for us here.

I've already explained how it's wrong.
 

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You are wrong about much of that.

But of course it is essential--to Pentecostals--to keep saying and believing in the scenario you have repeated for us here.

I've already explained how it's wrong.
It's just what Google says. I wondered who was the first to say it stopped with the apostles. Calvin as always. God hates you, doesn't want to heal you and doesn't want to save you except when you're special. Hey why are atheists mad at God?
 

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That's the kind of statement that I feel needs to be retired. I hear it a lot, but the fact is that there are more than two views concerning this matter, and although there probably are some people who would agree that "the gifts have ceased," what is believed by most Christians is that they have become special and not commonplace, and that God still does on occasion extend all of the gifts mentioned in Corinthians. At one point in time, the gifts (especially perhaps Tongues) were critical to securing the faith in a pagan world, but after Christianity triumphed, the need sharply declined and so did the evidence of the gifts. But that isn't to say that the gifts ceased totally. A little study of church history will show that it was acknowledged by the Church as well.

What's more, the distinction here is important in view of the fact that most of the pentecostal/charismatic people and churches take the view that anybody can get this and other gifts if they know how to go about it. Their preachers will even coach them. Many of these folks also think that this makes them more authentic as Christians than other Christians are.



I'd agree. And we'd all be seeing eye to eye here IF it were not for the posts I have read that make no apologies for talking as though Christians who don't imitate tongues or talk themselves into believing that they routinely receive "words of knowledge," etc. are therefore the "real" Christians, unlike everyone else.

As usual you attempt to ignore my question and hope everyone will forget it.

So again, you like to say a lot of things but offer no Scripture. So, again, I ask you, give me Scripture in support of your view of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Just like I asked you in my post #(59).

You can crawfish all you want. But...your crawfishing only displays the emptiness of your argument.

So, give me Scripture or else own up to the fact that you have no Scripture.

Lees
 

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But then you never know if God is willing to heal you today, so how on earth can you then heal the sick in His Name or stand in faith for Him to want to heal you or someone else?

Hebrews 11
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Matthew 10
Heal the sick, [d]cleanse the lepers, [e]raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

I can know God is willing to heal today. Just not every time we want Him to heal. And that is what you and others appear to be saying.

The power to heal is from God, not man. Even a man who has the gift of healing doesn't heal everyone. The gift is his. The decision to heal is God's.

In other words, if one who has the gift of healing decides to take his healing on the road as a circus act, I don't believe he is exercising true faith to the glory of God. He only wants to bring glory to himself. HE has the power to HEAL! And he wants everyone to know it.

Concerning (Matt. 10) that is done under the Gospel of the Kingdom. Not the Christian gospel. In other words, see (10:6) and only apply it to Israel. Do you do that also?

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You are wrong about much of that.

But of course it is essential--to Pentecostals--to keep saying and believing in the scenario you have repeated for us here.

I've already explained how it's wrong.

Yes you're big on 'explanations'. But, you offer no Scripture. I have went through this whole argument and haven't found one Scripture you gave for support.

Nothing wrong with an opinion...when it is based upon Scripture. You however offer nothing but your opinion. You have no Scripture.

In other words, if the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased, show me in Scripture. If you can't, then your explanations have no merit. It's just 'you'. And I'm sure everyone wants to follow 'you'.

Lees
 

Messy

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I can know God is willing to heal today. Just not every time we want Him to heal. And that is what you and others appear to be saying.

The power to heal is from God, not man. Even a man who has the gift of healing doesn't heal everyone. The gift is his. The decision to heal is God's.

In other words, if one who has the gift of healing decides to take his healing on the road as a circus act, I don't believe he is exercising true faith to the glory of God. He only wants to bring glory to himself. HE has the power to HEAL! And he wants

everyone to know it.

Concerning (Matt. 10) that is done under the Gospel of the Kingdom. Not the Christian gospel. In other words, see (10:6) and only apply it to Israel. Do you do that also?

Lees
Yes this was said to the apostles and we are no apostles, but Paul etc. also healed the sick.

Not everyone wants money and glory for himself. Reinhard Bonnke just wanted to save Africa. Evangelists always have the gift of healing to get people saved.

God decided that Jesus bore our sins and sicknesses and that by His stripes we are healed and He gave the authority to heal the sick to the church, so He could go to heaven. Jesus never said no to anyone. If He walked around on earth I can't imagine that any christian would think, when he sees Him heal the masses put on the street: oh better not ask cause He may have some meaning with this sickness and say: no I'm not willing to heal you.
 
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Messy

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James 5:14-15

Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

1 Peter 2:24

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

Isaiah 53:5

But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.

Exodus 15:26

Saying, “If you will diligently listen to the voice of the Lord your God, and do that which is right in his eyes, and give ear to his commandments and keep all his statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you that I put on the Egyptians, for I am the Lord, your healer.”

Proverbs 4:20-22

My son, be attentive to my words; incline your ear to my sayings. Let them not escape from your sight; keep them within your heart. For they are life to those who find them, and healing to all their flesh.

Philippians 4:19

And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus.

Deuteronomy 7:15

And the Lord will take away from you all sickness, and none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which you knew, will he inflict on you, but he will lay them on all who hate you.


Proverbs 3:5-8

Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths. Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord, and turn away from evil. It will be healing to your flesh and refreshment to your bones.

Exodus 23:25

You shall serve the Lord your God, and he will bless your bread and your water, and I will take sickness away from among you.

Matthew 9:35

And Jesus went throughout all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction.


Hebrews 11:6

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Acts 10:38

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.


Isaiah 53:4-5

Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.


Matthew 8
16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, 17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:

“He Himself took our infirmities
And bore our sicknesses.”
 
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Albion

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Messy

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You are wrong about much of that.

But of course it is essential--to Pentecostals--to keep saying and believing in the scenario you have repeated for us here.

I've already explained how it's wrong.
I read that nowadays they believe God sometimes heals, but Calvin did come up with the lie and maybe people before him too.


Calvin:
Did this ministry which the apostles then performed, still remain in the Church, it would also behave us to observe the laying on of hands; but since that gift has ceased to be conferred, to what end is the laying on of hands? Assuredly the Holy Spirit is still present with the people of God (…) But those miraculous powers and manifest operations, which were distributed by the laying on of hands, have ceased. They were only for a time. (Inst. 4.19.6)


He just made that up.

But the gift of healing disappeared with the other miraculous powers which the Lord was pleased to give for a time, that it might render the new preaching of the gospel for ever wonderful.” (Inst. 4.19.18) Again, Calvin gives the same reason for the cessation of the gifts he shortly analyzes.

The Lord, doubtless, is present with his people in all ages, and cures their sicknesses as often as there is need, not less than formerly; and yet he does not exert those manifest powers, nor dispense miracles by the hands of apostles, because that gift was temporary, and owing, in some measure, to the ingratitude of men, immediately ceased. (Inst. 4.19.19)

Commenting on 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 where Paul affirms that even the gift of prophecy is partial, Calvin highlights that Paul “proves that prophecy, and other gifts of that nature, are done away, because they are conferred upon us to help our infirmity (…) Now our imperfection will one day have an end. Hence the use, even of those gifts, will, at the same time, be discontinued, for it were absurd that they should remain and be of no use. They will, therefore, perish.” (Calvin’s Commentaries on I Cor. 13:9-10)
 

Albion

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Yes you're big on 'explanations'. But, you offer no Scripture. I have went through this whole argument and haven't found one Scripture you gave for support.

Nothing wrong with an opinion...when it is based upon Scripture. You however offer nothing but your opinion. You have no Scripture.

In other words, if the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased, show me in Scripture. If you can't, then your explanations have no merit. It's just 'you'. And I'm sure everyone wants to follow 'you'.

Lees
Well, here's an example of why we are on different debating wavelengths. I have explicitly said that THE GIFTS HAVE NOT CEASED. You don't want to hear it.

It has become a familiar claim with many Pentecostals, Charismatics, and related groups that "Those people (i.e., every Christian other than themselves) say the gifts ceased! Let's call them Cessationists!" That appears to be your own perspective.

And now you are here to gripe that I explain things and that I haven't given any Scripture that supports the view that the gifts HAVE ceased, even though it isn't my contention that they have.

How does that make any sense?

I'm getting the feeling that you don't want anybody who has a religious belief other than your own to explain it...and that's because you are committed to the idea that there's what you believe, and then there's another view for which you're set with a rebuttal.

No grey areas or additional views on the subject are allowed, although the fact is that there usually are many different "slants" among Christians on whatever the disputed doctrine or practice happens to be.
 
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Lees

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Well, here's an example of why we are on different debating wavelengths. I have explicitly said that THE GIFTS HAVE NOT CEASED. You don't want to hear it.

It has become a familiar claim with many Pentecostals, Charismatics, and related groups that "Those people (i.e., every Christian other than themselves) say the gifts ceased! Let's call them Cessationists!" That appears to be your own perspective.

And now you are here to gripe that I explain things and that I haven't given any Scripture that supports the view that the gifts HAVE ceased, even though it isn't my contention that they have.

How does that make any sense?

I'm getting the feeling that you don't want anybody who has a religious belief other than your own to explain it...and that's because you are committed to the idea that there's what you believe, and then there's another view for which you're set with a rebuttal.

No grey areas or additional views on the subject are allowed, although the fact is that there usually are many different "slants" among Christians on whatever the disputed doctrine or practice happens to be.


Nice speech. But...still no Scripture.

So, present your view and Scripture to support.

Good by Joe we gotta go me oh my oh. We gotta go pole the pirgue down the bayou. Jambalaya crawfish pie fillet gumbo...

If you got a another 'belief' then support it with Scripture. So far you haven't.

Well, your 'slant' is nothing but you. You have nothing to offer.

But...surprise me. Support your view with Scripture.

Lees
 

Albion

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Albion said:
And now you are here to gripe that I explain things and that I haven't given any Scripture that supports the view that the gifts HAVE ceased, even though it isn't my contention that they have.


Lees said:
Nice speech. But...still no Scripture.


(sigh)
 
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Messy

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The sigh reminds me of more Bible texts. Lees wants Bible texts. He'll get Bible texts.

Matthew 17
And when they had come to the multitude, a man came to Him, kneeling down to Him and saying, 15 “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is [c]an epileptic and suffers severely; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water. 16 So I brought him to Your disciples, but they could not cure him.”

17 Then Jesus answered and said, “O [d]faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him here to Me.” 18 And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour.

19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?”

20 So Jesus said to them, “Because of your [e]unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you. 21 [f]However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.”


John 11

Then, when Mary came where Jesus was, and saw Him, she fell down at His feet, saying to Him, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.”

33 Therefore, when Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, He groaned in the spirit and was troubled. 34 And He said, “Where have you laid him?”

They said to Him, “Lord, come and see.”

35 Jesus wept. 36 Then the Jews said, “See how He loved him!”

37 And some of them said, “Could not this Man, who opened the eyes of the blind, also have kept this man from dying?”

Lazarus Raised from the Dead​

38 Then Jesus, again groaning in Himself, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. 39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.”

Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.”

40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?” 41 Then they took away the stone [d]from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42 And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.” 43 Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” 44 And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”


John 14

The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you [c]ask anything in My name, I will do it.
 

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Yes this was said to the apostles and we are no apostles, but Paul etc. also healed the sick.

Not everyone wants money and glory for himself. Reinhard Bonnke just wanted to save Africa. Evangelists always have the gift of healing to get people saved.

God decided that Jesus bore our sins and sicknesses and that by His stripes we are healed and He gave the authority to heal the sick to the church, so He could go to heaven. Jesus never said no to anyone. If He walked around on earth I can't imagine that any christian would think, when he sees Him heal the masses put on the street: oh better not ask cause He may have some meaning with this sickness and say: no I'm not willing to heal you.

It was said to Israel under the offer of the Kingdom.

Yes, Paul healed as did other apostles. I have said that the gift of healing exists in the Church. But not as a travelling snake oil show. What is the basis for your statement that evangelist's have the gift of healing? Just because they say so?

Physical healing plays no role in one going to heaven. Where did you get that? Just because Jesus physically healed someone or they followed Him because of the miracles He did, means nothing. In fact it can create a superficial response. (John 2:23-25)

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You can sigh all you like. You have given no Scripture to support your view.

Your view is your 'polite way' of saying the gifts have ceased. You want to say that the gifts are no longer needed to be common in the church.

But, here again, you have no Scripture to support your view.

'sigh'

Give your view and the Scriptural basis for it. Pretty simple. 'sigh'

Lees
 
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