Pilate’s regret

[Ammi]

I've been in a few movements where God was doing things. He gave me several visions, set me free from generational curses, delivered me, and other things, but He never healed me physically. Others got healed, but only some. God is faithful. He's let me know Him in a way that is special to me. He loves me and I know I'll spend eternity with Him. I'm not afraid to die, in fact I'll be relieved when this life is over.
So I sing...I am on the road...to my home...in the New Jerusalem. And when I get there, there will be...no more death, no more mourning, no more crying...or pain!

 

[Albion]

Many say a lot of things. Go ahead and cower in 'many would say'. Keep yourself safe as you like to do.

Lees

I was attempting to be as polite as possible when responding to a poster who imagines that a Christian fringe group which teaches its followers to believe they need to be, can be, and have been endowed with magical powers is much different from actual snake oil salesmen.

But the bigger point is this--very few Christians are in that category, thankfully; and this means that no comparisons made using them rather than the Christian majority can be valid in any case. Like it or not.

 

[Messy]

@Messy

Does everyone get healed that you want to heal?

Why? Or, why not?

So, who do you blame when God doesn't heal someone you want healed?

Lees

Myself or a sickness demon or noone. He said we should heal the sick in His Name. So I was sick and got prayer in church, but I wasn't healed. I built my faith for a year with Bible texts and then I went to another church and got healed. I do not accept sickness. Sickness is not from God. Jesus never said no. Do you want to heal me Lord? Come on. Sometimes He couldn't heal because they didn't believe He was the Messiah. The disciples couldn't help a man's son because that kind (demon) only went out by fasting and praying, Jesus rebuked them for their unbelief, but never did He say no, so why on earth would He say no now? A woman said God didn't want to heal her because she had to go to the hospital and share the Gospel to the woman next to her, but later she hot healed, so that I understand. That's a good reason. But often it's just that people say: it doesn't happen, so it wasn't God's will. Where's that in the Bible?

 

[Messy]

Well, a snake oil show is all that is presented.

Well, go ahead and get mad. But, you're mad at God...just like Lucian is.

Why do you say God always wants to heal? Where do you get that idea?

God being a 'respecter of persons' has nothing to do with His will in healing anyone.

If it doesn't happen it is because it is God's will. You acknowledge that with your last exception.

Lees

I would watch out with saying that cause God still heals and there are still gifts of the Spirit to heal. Just because there are also money grabbers and weirdo's doesn't mean you can call it all bad. Jesus healed the sick. The sick got healed in Peter's shadow. The pharisees called it demonic.

 

[Ammi]

Awhile back, the Lord told me that things were going to improve for me. The next week I went to a doctor's appointment. He tried to get me to take a drug called Lyrica. I refused. A month or so later, I agreed to give a try. The result was almost miraculous! I went from being on the edge from pain all the time to pain, for the most part, being a minor issue for me. I may have fibromyalgia.
A few months later, I realized that I was unhappy because instead of healing me, He wanted me to take a pill! This infuriated me. I'd had Him lay me out on the floor when His presence was so heavy that it pushed me over. From the time I let go to the time I made contact with the floor was about 15 seconds (at the time, I was at a weeklong Christian healing retreat and was in my room, alone).
Another time when I was alone, He lifted me out of my chair and set me on my feet. But He didn't heal me. The Lord and I worked through it, and I am now thankful for the medication. I later read something by a guy named A.W. Tozer where he explained that sometimes the Lord used extended lengths of suffering as part of a process to prepare someone for something. It could be, I guess.
Being ill for years has sure given me more understanding of what some people go through and has increased my compassion for them. I've gone through some lonely and difficult times over the past 19 years, and I sensed His love for me in my heart the whole time. He never left me...not even for a second.
I understand that some of the things I've just said are difficult to accept, but I am trying to relate them the best that I can.
So, I know that He can heal me physically...He just hasn't.
My sister's roommate was in a wheelchair her whole life and then one night while at a meeting, God healed her. She was delighted, to say the least. She went to her church leaders and showed them what the Lord had done. They told her that God didn't heal anymore, that she'd been lying to them for years, and kicked her out of the church. Last I heard, she was still walking around.
I try to understand my situation and I have a theory or 2 as to why I'm still ill. Whether I'm sick or I'm well, whether I stand or I fall, He is faithful to me, and I know that will never change. This scripture may or may not apply to my situation...
“See, it is I who created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame and forges a weapon fit for its work. And it is I who have created the destroyer to wreak havoc;" - Isaiah 54:16 Shalom!

 

[Lees]

I was attempting to be as polite as possible when responding to a poster who imagines that a Christian fringe group which teaches its followers to believe they need to be, can be, and have been endowed with magical powers is much different from actual snake oil salesmen.

But the bigger point is this--very few Christians are in that category, thankfully; and this means that no comparisons made using them rather than the Christian majority can be valid in any case. Like it or not.

The distinction that I made is very different. You however implied there was not much difference. post #(37) Exercising the gifts within the local Body is, or should be, the norm in a local church. That includes healing.

I don't understand your 'bigger point'.

Within the Church you have two opposing views. Those who believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit still exist. And those who believe they have ceased. Whether one side is few and the other a majority doesn't prove anything. For, I am quite willing to say that the majority of the Christian Church today is full of false doctrine and has compromised with the world.

The bottom line with the gifts of the Holy Spirit is, or should be, what does the Scripture say? But, when people who are not even believers, obtain leadership positions in the church, they must be against such gifts as they know they don't have it. And so they must teach against them. The same can be said of believers who obtain certain positions in the church but are not gifted in that area.

My point is this: the majority of the Church today rejects the gifts of the Holy Spirit because they have been taught to do that. Not because the Scripture says that. Therefore over time, you don't hardly see them in the Church. But, if one is honest, he would recognize that over time you can't hardly find a good church anywhere today.

Lees

 

[Messy]

I was attempting to be as polite as possible when responding to a poster who imagines that a Christian fringe group which teaches its followers to believe they need to be, can be, and have been endowed with magical powers is much different from actual snake oil salesmen.

But the bigger point is this--very few Christians are in that category, thankfully; and this means that no comparisons made using them rather than the Christian majority can be valid in any case. Like it or not.

Thankfully? We had one preacher in Holland who prayed for all the reformed who didn't get prayer in their own church. James says if you're sick go the elders. They couldn't. There were no elders praying for the sick. They told em God gives sickness. It's a lie.
And then when someone didnt get healed they would sometimes get mad at him, one guy, who did it all alone, cause the others were too lazy. Amazing guy it was. He went on and on until he died.
Magical powers. Unbelievable. The Holy Spirit heals. Torben Sondergaard, loads of people got healed. He's still in jail. They hate it when God saves and heals.

 

[Lees]

Myself or a sickness demon or noone. He said we should heal the sick in His Name. So I was sick and got prayer in church, but I wasn't healed. I built my faith for a year with Bible texts and then I went to another church and got healed. I do not accept sickness. Sickness is not from God. Jesus never said no. Do you want to heal me Lord? Come on. Sometimes He couldn't heal because they didn't believe He was the Messiah. The disciples couldn't help a man's son because that kind (demon) only went out by fasting and praying, Jesus rebuked them for their unbelief, but never did He say no, so why on earth would He say no now? A woman said God didn't want to heal her because she had to go to the hospital and share the Gospel to the woman next to her, but later she hot healed, so that I understand. That's a good reason. But often it's just that people say: it doesn't happen, so it wasn't God's will. Where's that in the Bible?

Well, it seems to me that God's will should be all important. When Jesus healed the man by the pool in Jerusalem, (John 5:1-16), He literally picked him out among a great multitude that wanted to be healed. (5:3) And that was the only one He healed.

In (John 9:1-34) we see a man who was blind all his life. A blindness that Jesus said was to glorify God as Jesus healed him. Yet for many years God made this man blind.

Concerning healing there is no one set formula or pattern to follow. Which means to me, that the 'will of God' is the basis for all of it.

I hold to all the gifts of the Holy Spirit for the edifying of the Church. But, as I said, I disagree with anyone who has a gift of healing, taking it on the road as a healing show. And then when some are not healed, it's always their fault for not having the faith.

Lees

 

[Albion]

The distinction that I made is very different.

I don't agree that you did, in fact, make the necessary distinction. If you meant something other than the words that were chosen seemed to suggest, then that's encouraging.

But then here's your follow-up reflection on the matter--

Within the Church you have two opposing views. Those who believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit still exist. And those who believe they have ceased.

At best, that is clearly a mistaken notion. And it wrongly implies that the "two opposing views" are somehow balanced, as though this divides Christianity down the middle. In reality, the traditional belief probably is held by 95% of the Christian people, whether Protestant or Catholic while the revisionist view is held by very few.

The fringe groups and churches can say that the Holy Spirit does X and that God gifts some people under some conditions, and just about every other Christian church would agree, contrary what you and Messy seem to want very much to believe is the case.

However, that is not what those fringe church groups actually teach. They've misinterpreted and altered these Biblical principles, and there's no reason that someone shouldn't have mentioned that fact here. That said, let's move along.

 

[Messy]

Well, it seems to me that God's will should be all important. When Jesus healed the man by the pool in Jerusalem, (John 5:1-16), He literally picked him out among a great multitude that wanted to be healed. (5:3) And that was the only one He healed.

In (John 9:1-34) we see a man who was blind all his life. A blindness that Jesus said was to glorify God as Jesus healed him. Yet for many years God made this man blind.

Concerning healing there is no one set formula or pattern to follow. Which means to me, that the 'will of God' is the basis for all of it.

I hold to all the gifts of the Holy Spirit for the edifying of the Church. But, as I said, I disagree with anyone who has a gift of healing, taking it on the road as a healing show. And then when some are not healed, it's always their fault for not having the faith.

Lees

The man by the pool was the only one who had no man to help him. The rest relied on a man and the angel.
God didn't make him blind. He had to wait, just like the guy at the pool, until Jesus was 30 and started His ministry.

Acts 10
38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

John 10
10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

Luke 13
And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up. 12 But when Jesus saw her, He called her to Him and said to her, “Woman, you are loosed from your infirmity.” 13 And He laid His hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.

If God gave the sickness and then Jesus throws the sickness out, that makes no sense. He would be divided against Himself.
And Jan Zijlstra always said: oh if sickness is a gift from God be happy with the present and why do you go to a doctor then? Because it's not a gift. God didn't create sickness. Sickness and death came after Adam and Eve let satan in.

Only when someone sins against the Spirit like Herod, yes an angel struck him, but that was a punishment and that is not the case with a believer who is not healed.

Smith Wigglesworth raised his wife from the dead. He gave us so much authority that you can even go against God's will, which we should not do, but Elijah did that with the bears, cause his ego was hurt.
So years later she died again and he put her to the wall and commanded her to come back to life and she did, but God said he had to let her go, cause it was her time.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Myself or a sickness demon or noone. He said we should heal the sick in His Name. So I was sick and got prayer in church, but I wasn't healed. I built my faith for a year with Bible texts and then I went to another church and got healed. I do not accept sickness. Sickness is not from God. Jesus never said no. Do you want to heal me Lord? Come on. Sometimes He couldn't heal because they didn't believe He was the Messiah. The disciples couldn't help a man's son because that kind (demon) only went out by fasting and praying, Jesus rebuked them for their unbelief, but never did He say no, so why on earth would He say no now? A woman said God didn't want to heal her because she had to go to the hospital and share the Gospel to the woman next to her, but later she hot healed, so that I understand. That's a good reason. But often it's just that people say: it doesn't happen, so it wasn't God's will. Where's that in the Bible?

Why is faith a prerequisite for God's help though? If Earth is under the influence of the father of lies, faith should be the last thing required from humans by God. He should know that satan can deceive people into believing all sort of lies.

It was faith in satan's word that made Eve sin in the first place. Seeing how the entire fall of mankind stemmed from misplaced faith, how does it make any sense for God to require faith in something unverifiable as a prerequisite for salvation and for help from Him?

And why that random rule about fasting? Is that the only rule or are there others? Are there demons that can't be cast out unless you give to the poor frequently? Why didn't Jesus give us a list of rules that must be obeyed in order to cast out every type of demon?

Why didn't Jesus give us a list of instructions on how to generate faith if we genuinely want to have it but are unable to muster it? "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" did not work for me. I heard and heard and heard the Word of God. I could quote scriptures and prayers by heart, but I didn't get any faith. Moreover, how can faith be measured anyways? Jesus seemed to think that it can be quantified just like material things, for example mustard seeds. Is there a faith-o-meter that we can use to measure how much faith a person has?

 

[Albion]

Well, it seems to me that God's will should be all important. When Jesus healed the man by the pool in Jerusalem, (John 5:1-16), He literally picked him out among a great multitude that wanted to be healed. (5:3) And that was the only one He healed.

In (John 9:1-34) we see a man who was blind all his life. A blindness that Jesus said was to glorify God as Jesus healed him. Yet for many years God made this man blind.

Correction: God allowed this man to be blind. There's a big difference there. Recognizing this one difference would get us past a lot of the "why why why" posting that we encounter.

There is a reason that sickness and misfortune are part of the human existence, and every Christian should be aware of what that is. As a result of it then, what angers people is God not intervening to change the consequences of sin, make everything whole, and do so in every instance. They are also thinking that if he does not do so, then he's the cause of their infirmity or misfortune!

 

[Messy]

Why is faith a prerequisite for God's help though? If Earth is under the influence of the father of lies, faith should be the last thing required from humans by God. He should know that satan can deceive people into believing all sort of lies.

It was faith in satan's word that made Eve sin in the first place. Seeing how the entire fall of mankind stemmed from misplaced faith, how does it make any sense for God to require faith in something unverifiable as a prerequisite for salvation and for help from Him?

And why that random rule about fasting? Is that the only rule or are there others? Are there demons that can't be cast out unless you give to the poor frequently? Why didn't Jesus give us a list of rules that must be obeyed in order to cast out every type of demon?

Why didn't Jesus give us a list of instructions on how to generate faith if we genuinely want to have it but are unable to muster it? "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" did not work for me. I heard and heard and heard the Word of God. I could quote scriptures and prayers by heart, but I didn't get any faith. Moreover, how can faith be measured anyways? Jesus seemed to think that it can be quantified just like material things, for example mustard seeds. Is there a faith-o-meter that we can use to measure how much faith a person has?

It is needed. It's the spiritual connection between man and God and when it doesn't work the church should do it. Kyambu, the whole city got saved cause the whole church prayed 24/7. You cant expect the same results when noone ever comes pray and the church is selfish and sleeps and is like: oh I'm not sick myself, so good luck.
Everyone gets the measure of faith, the same measure, when you get saved and you can let it grow, train it like a muscle. Peter sank. He had unbelief, he doubted, he had little faith. And then after 3 years it had grown and people healed in his shadow. But some churches are too focused on: you have to have enough faith,like it is a workyou have to perform yourself. When I just got saved in a pentecostal church I heard that preaching and imagined God standing there with a hygrometer we had for the plants. Ah. Too bad. Not enough faith. Can't help you. That man's son got healed. He said: Lord I believe. Help my unbelief. That was enough. But the ones He sighed at were not the sick, but His disciples, who saw Him do miracles all the time, showed them how to do it, but then He went up the mountain and they couldn't heal him, cause yes of course you must fast and pray to kick demons out and you must be called. I helped once, cause there was no one else. My goodness. That girl, I don't know what she did, if she lived in sin or opened the door to the occult, but after that I got attacked by a demon at night who tried to rape me. Well the next one can go to T.B. Joshua's wife or something, but not to me. Sickness demons no problem, but not that filthy unclean kind.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

It is needed.

Why is it needed? It seems counterproductive. Requiring faith from creatures whose entire downfall was caused by misplaced faith seems irrational. What would make sense would be for God to require knowledge and obedience to Him after He revealed everything to us clearly. That would actually make sense.

 

[Messy]

The Church has the authority to exercise healing within the Church through those who have the gift of healing. All in accordance with the will of God. It doesn't mean the Church goes on a travelling snake oil show to 'HEAL IN JESUS NAME'.

Any who believe that have let the Church down.

Lees

Easy talking when you have loads of churches in America that pray for healing. We had nothing. It started when an American went to Holland. I'm glad he did.

Oh this one is English, but it starts at 9 mins:

 

[Albion]

Just about every Christian I know, from any denomination, prays for healing.

It doesn't take anything more elaborate than going into one's closet or kneeling by the bedside or asking God for help in your thoughts no matter where you are. The idea that making a great show out of praying, or that God's mercy has to be activated by performing just the right ritual, is a mistake.

If all of us were plugged into the fine points of Christian theology, we would realize that prayer is a lifting up of our hearts and minds to God, as an old catechism put it. That's it. Not a lot of other requirements.

And the Bible speaks of praying without ceasing, which cannot be done if there are a lot of manmade conditions that some self-appointed evangelist or an entire denomination insists be added if there's to be any hope of getting through to God.

 

[Messy]

Just about every Christian I know, from any denomination, prays for healing.

It doesn't take anything more elaborate than going into one's closet or kneeling by the bedside or asking God for help in your thoughts no matter where you are. The idea that making a great show out of praying, or that God's mercy has to be activated by performing just the right ritual, is a mistake.

If all of us were plugged into the fine points of Christian theology, we would realize that prayer is a lifting up of our hearts and minds to God, as an old catechism put it. That's it. Not a lot of other requirements.

And the Bible speaks of praying without ceasing, which cannot be done if there are a lot of manmade conditions that some self-appointed evangelist or an entire denomination insists be added if there's to be any hope of getting through to God.

So the apostles did it wrong, laying the hands on the sick and the elders anointing the sick with oil? It should not have to be a one man show, but if noone lays their hands on the sick and noone preaches about healing, someone has to do it. An evangelist came to our country, like we were some unsaved African tribe, since healing was not taught in our formal churches.

 

[Albion]

So the apostles did it wrong, laying the hands on the sick and the elders anointing the sick with oil?

Clergy--the successors of the Apostles--do that all the time. It's not what was being talked about and advocated on this thread.

It should not have to be a one man show, but if noone

Peter?

lays their hands on the sick and noone preaches about healing, someone has to do it.

We were talking about praying and before that the "Holy Roller" stuff that some people think is essential if God is to listen to his children.

An evangelist came to our country, like we were some unsaved African tribe, since healing was not taught in our formal churches.

It's surprising if that is the case, but I have to wonder what exactly you are talking about. Every last worship service in my church includes petitions for healing and yet nobody is twitching and falling out into the aisle pretending to have been struck with a bolt of Holy Spirit.

 

[Lees]

I don't agree that you did, in fact, make the necessary distinction. If you meant something other than the words that were chosen seemed to suggest, then that's encouraging.

But then here's your follow-up reflection on the matter--


At best, that is clearly a mistaken notion. And it wrongly implies that the "two opposing views" are somehow balanced, as though this divides Christianity down the middle. In reality, the traditional belief probably is held by 95% of the Christian people, whether Protestant or Catholic while the revisionist view is held by very few.

The fringe groups and churches can say that the Holy Spirit does X and that God gifts some people under some conditions, and just about every other Christian church would agree, contrary what you and Messy seem to want very much to believe is the case.

However, that is not what those fringe church groups actually teach. They've misinterpreted and altered these Biblical principles, and there's no reason that someone shouldn't have mentioned that fact here. That said, let's move along.

Again, the distinction I made, which you highlighted in post #(37), is very different. You say there is not much difference, but there is.

No. There are two opposing views concerning gifts of the Holy Spirit in the Church. And they are in opposition to each other. One views the gifts have ceased. One believes the gifts still exist.

As I said before, it doesn't matter who is in the majority. That proves nothing. The majority can be just as wrong as the minority.

Oh yes, you would like to 'move along' as you ignored an important point of what I said. I said, the bottom line concerning the gifts of the Holy Spirit is what does Scripture say.

So tell me how your view is supported by Scripture. Give me the Scripture. It will help find out who is really a 'fringe' church.

Lees

 

[Lees]

The man by the pool was the only one who had no man to help him. The rest relied on a man and the angel.
God didn't make him blind. He had to wait, just like the guy at the pool, until Jesus was 30 and started His ministry.

Acts 10
38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

John 10
10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

Luke 13
And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up. 12 But when Jesus saw her, He called her to Him and said to her, “Woman, you are loosed from your infirmity.” 13 And He laid His hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.

If God gave the sickness and then Jesus throws the sickness out, that makes no sense. He would be divided against Himself.
And Jan Zijlstra always said: oh if sickness is a gift from God be happy with the present and why do you go to a doctor then? Because it's not a gift. God didn't create sickness. Sickness and death came after Adam and Eve let satan in.

Only when someone sins against the Spirit like Herod, yes an angel struck him, but that was a punishment and that is not the case with a believer who is not healed.

Smith Wigglesworth raised his wife from the dead. He gave us so much authority that you can even go against God's will, which we should not do, but Elijah did that with the bears, cause his ego was hurt.
So years later she died again and he put her to the wall and commanded her to come back to life and she did, but God said he had to let her go, cause it was her time.

The point was Jesus didn't heal everyone. There was a multitude of sick, impotent, blind, halt, and crippled who needed and wanted healing. We are not told that any of them were healed at all. Jesus could have healed all of them. But He didn't. He picked one man. And this mans disease was a result of his sins. (John 5:14) Which is one reason not all our healed.

As to the man in (John 9:1-15) who was born blind, Jesus said, "...Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him." Sounds like God was behind it to me.

No, if God gives a sickness and later heals a sickness doesn't mean He is divided. It means He will get what He wants by giving the sickness and then heals it. If in fact He does heal it. He may not.

You seem to think I am against the gift of healing. I am not. As I have said, I don't believe it should be presented as a travelling circus show. That becomes nothing but a mockery.

Lees