The Messiah and the 3 days and 3 nights timeframe of Matthew 12:40?

[Stravinsk]

What problem? (John 20:1) is clear. "The first day of the week"

Lees

Yep. Do you know Koine Greek? Some years ago I got a couple of books on the subject just so I could understand passages like the one here. That is not the literal translation.

 

[Lees]

Yep. Do you know Koine Greek? Some years ago I got a couple of books on the subject just so I could understand passages like the one here. That is not the literal translation.

No, do you? What are the books you have on the subject that help you understand the passages?

What books do you have that help you believe the passages?

Lees

 

[Stravinsk]

No, do you? What are the books you have on the subject that help you understand the passages?

What books do you have that help you believe the passages?

Lees

Books I have are:

"Basics of New Testament Syntax" Daniel B. Wallace
"Greek Grammar - Beyond the Basics" Daniel B. Wallace.

The passage doesn't say "first day of the week". I've already stated this elsewhere (including this thread) numerous times.

 

[Lees]

Books I have are:

"Basics of New Testament Syntax" Daniel B. Wallace
"Greek Grammar - Beyond the Basics" Daniel B. Wallace.

The passage doesn't say "first day of the week". I've already stated this elsewhere (including this thread) numerous times.

So, what does Wallace say (John 20:1) says?

The word 'day' is there to support the meaning. Even if you remove 'day', it says 'The first of the week'.

The Sabbath was past. (Mark 16:1) "And when the sabbath was past....And very early in the morning, the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun."

(Mark 16:9) "Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week...."

Lees

 

[Stravinsk]

So, what does Wallace say (John 20:1) says?

The word 'day' is there to support the meaning. Even if you remove 'day', it says 'The first of the week'.

The Sabbath was past. (Mark 16:1) "And when the sabbath was past....And very early in the morning, the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun."

(Mark 16:9) "Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week...."

Lees

The word "day" is there to fit a Greek grammar requirement. In John 20:1, the word "First" (protos) is actually "One" (mia). This adjective is in feminine tense. Therefore, as an adjective, it needs to modify a feminine noun. But the noun is missing, therefore, the addition of a word. The word does not have to be "day", it could be a number of words in the feminine tense. For instance, "hour". The point is, the noun itself is missing from the original text. We simply don't know what it is.

It's also clear that the phrase translated "week" is actually literally "of the Sabbaths". "Sabbaths" is in genetive tense, is plural, and as such cannot be the noun modified by the word "mia" (one), as a feminine adjective cannot modify a neuter noun.

The phrase literally reads: "One [blank] of the Sabbaths"

Furthermore, there is an argument stating that the writers of this passage had no word for "week". However, this is incorrect, as the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, includes the word for week. The word is "ἑβδομάς" or hebdomas and can be found in passages such as:

Genesis 29:27
Leviticus 23:15
Daniel 9:24

So, for example, John 20:1 Does not use the word for "first", instead uses "one", excludes the word "day" and does not use the word for "week", instead using the plural form of Sabbaths. To me this makes the meaning ambiguous.

 

[Lees]

The word "day" is there to fit a Greek grammar requirement. In John 20:1, the word "First" (protos) is actually "One" (mia). This adjective is in feminine tense. Therefore, as an adjective, it needs to modify a feminine noun. But the noun is missing, therefore, the addition of a word. The word does not have to be "day", it could be a number of words in the feminine tense. For instance, "hour". The point is, the noun itself is missing from the original text. We simply don't know what it is.

It's also clear that the phrase translated "week" is actually literally "of the Sabbaths". "Sabbaths" is in genetive tense, is plural, and as such cannot be the noun modified by the word "mia" (one), as a feminine adjective cannot modify a neuter noun.

The phrase literally reads: "One [blank] of the Sabbaths"

Furthermore, there is an argument stating that the writers of this passage had no word for "week". However, this is incorrect, as the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, includes the word for week. The word is "ἑβδομάς" or hebdomas and can be found in passages such as:

Genesis 29:27
Leviticus 23:15
Daniel 9:24

So, for example, John 20:1 Does not use the word for "first", instead uses "one", excludes the word "day" and does not use the word for "week", instead using the plural form of Sabbaths. To me this makes the meaning ambiguous.

What Greek text are you translating from?

And, again, is this Wallace's translation? Or, is this your translation based on your Greek scholarship? Show me a Bible that follows your translation.

You seem to forget that the KJV is a Greek translation by men who knew the Greek much better than you. (John 20:1) "The first day of the week...."

But here is another. The NIV. ( John 20:1) "Early on the first day of the week..."

And another. The New American Standard. (John 20:1) "Now on the first day of the week..."

Plus, here is the "Englishman's Greek New Testament" translation. (John 20:1) "But on the first day of the week...."

Plus, here is "The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament" translation of (John 20:1) "But on the first day of the week..."

Concerning (Mark 16:1-2) note these translations of the Greek.

(KJV) "And when the sabbath was past...early in the morning the first day of the week...."

(NIV) "When the Sabbath was over...early on the first day of the week...."

(Englishmans Greek New Testeament) "And being past the sabbath...And very early on the first day of the week...."

(The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament) "And being past the sabbath...And very early on the first day of the week..."

And these are not just one Greek scholar involved per writing. They are many, many Greek scholars who participate in these translations. So I think I will stick with their translation as opposed to yours.

See...your Greek is based upon unbelief and fails to create faith. I think of those Scribes, Pharisees, who knew the Hebrew so well. Yet they missed the Christ.

Lees

 

[Origen]

Books I have are:

"Basics of New Testament Syntax" Daniel B. Wallace
"Greek Grammar - Beyond the Basics" Daniel B. Wallace.

The passage doesn't say "first day of the week". I've already stated this elsewhere (including this thread) numerous times.

I own that work. On which page does Wallace claim the passage doesn't say "first day of the week"?

 

[Stravinsk]

I own that work. On which page does Wallace claim the passage doesn't say "first day of the week"?

Sure you do. Why don't you look up the words. Is Protos (first) or Mia (one) used? Is the word for week used, or is Sabbaths used? Prove to me you aren't a liar. Explain the justification for the addition of the word "day", which isn't there.

 

[Stravinsk]

What Greek text are you translating from?

And, again, is this Wallace's translation? Or, is this your translation based on your Greek scholarship? Show me a Bible that follows your translation.

You seem to forget that the KJV is a Greek translation by men who knew the Greek much better than you. (John 20:1) "The first day of the week...."

But here is another. The NIV. ( John 20:1) "Early on the first day of the week..."

And another. The New American Standard. (John 20:1) "Now on the first day of the week..."

Plus, here is the "Englishman's Greek New Testament" translation. (John 20:1) "But on the first day of the week...."

Plus, here is "The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament" translation of (John 20:1) "But on the first day of the week..."

Concerning (Mark 16:1-2) note these translations of the Greek.

(KJV) "And when the sabbath was past...early in the morning the first day of the week...."

(NIV) "When the Sabbath was over...early on the first day of the week...."

(Englishmans Greek New Testeament) "And being past the sabbath...And very early on the first day of the week...."

(The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament) "And being past the sabbath...And very early on the first day of the week..."

And these are not just one Greek scholar involved per writing. They are many, many Greek scholars who participate in these translations. So I think I will stick with their translation as opposed to yours.

See...your Greek is based upon unbelief and fails to create faith. I think of those Scribes, Pharisees, who knew the Hebrew so well. Yet they missed the Christ.

Lees

I'm sorry to insult lesser minds, but you can't use English translations to prove English translations. Learn the basics of Greek. The translation here is a tradition, it is not literal. The word "day" is missing. The phrase "of the week" is missing and is replaced by "of the Sabbaths"...and of course "one" (or even "first" as used in Mark) cannot modify "of the Sabbaths" since it is a feminine adj. and cannot modify a neuter phrase, which "of the Sabbaths" is.

 

[Stravinsk]

Why don't you two look up:

Τῇ δὲ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων

which even Google cannot translate correctly: Google Translate

 

[Origen]

Sure you do. Why don't you look up the words. Is Protos (first) or Mia (one) used? Is the word for week used, or is Sabbaths used? Prove to me you aren't a liar. Explain the justification for the addition of the word "day", which isn't there.

Is Protos (first) or Mia (one) used?

That question highlights your complete and utter lack of knowledge of Greek. The form is μιᾷ, however, it is clear you assume the word should be πρώτη. WRONG!

F. Blass, A. Debrunner, and Robert W. Funk clearly point out that "Μία = πρώτη." They cite examples both inside and outside the New Testament of that usage. Stop pretending you know anything about Greek. You don't.

F. Blass, A. Debrunner, and Robert W. Funk, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. (Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 1961), p. 129.

Is the word for week used, or is Sabbaths used?

The word for "week" and Sabbath are the same.

Context and syntax determines usage. Here Abbott-Smith, as every other lexicographer does, says it means "week" in John 20:1.

George Abbott-Smith, A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament. (Edinburgh, T. & T. Clark, 1922), pp. 399-400.

Prove to me you aren't a liar.

So pitiful and pathetic. You just could not admit that Wallace's grammar made no such claim.

Explain the justification for the addition of the word "day", which isn't there.

Sure! In Greek the phrase is idiomatic. Thus the addition of the word "day" in English is necessary for clarification. That are many example of that.

The fact is you don't know Greek. You don't understand anything about the grammar\syntax. End of story.

 

[Origen]

So, what does Wallace say (John 20:1) says?

He can't. He is being extremely dishonest.

First, Basics of New Testament Syntax is nothing more than an abridgment of Greek Grammar - Beyond the Basics. It is not like they are two separate books on grammar.

Second, NO WHERE in his grammar does Wallace discuss the phrase "first day of the week." S is trying to mislead others in order to make them think Wallace does when Wallace does not.

Third, in Greek Grammar - Beyond the Basics Wallace mentions John 20:1 three time, twice on page 526 in notes 34 and 45 and once on page 528. In none of these does Wallace address the phrase "the first day of the week." Here are those citations for you to see yourself.

Page 625 note 34


Page 625 note 45


Page 528


The facts are:
(1) S knows absolutely NOTHING about Greek grammar and syntax.
(2) S is purposely being deceitful with his claims.

The word 'day' is there to support the meaning. Even if you remove 'day', it says 'The first of the week'.

Correct! In Greek the phrase is idiomatic. This is nothing new. Thus the addition of the word "day" in English is necessary for clarification. See post 51 above for more information.

 

[Lees]

I'm sorry to insult lesser minds, but you can't use English translations to prove English translations. Learn the basics of Greek. The translation here is a tradition, it is not literal. The word "day" is missing. The phrase "of the week" is missing and is replaced by "of the Sabbaths"...and of course "one" (or even "first" as used in Mark) cannot modify "of the Sabbaths" since it is a feminine adj. and cannot modify a neuter phrase, which "of the Sabbaths" is.

Whaaat? The translations I gave you are translating the Greek to English. Just as you are saying you do.

Yes, the translation I gave you is traditional as it is correct. What makes you say that? Just because you don't like it? Of course.

And, you didn't answer my questions. What Greek text are you translating from? And what Bible demonstrates the translation you are presenting?

You presesnt yourself as 'one person' who knows more about the Greek then the myriads of translators who have translated the Bible. What a shame they didn't have you there to teach their 'lesser minds'.

Lees

 

[Lees]

He can't. He is being extremely dishonest.

First, Basics of New Testament Syntax is nothing more than an abridgment of Greek Grammar - Beyond the Basics. It is not like they are two separate books on grammar.

Second, NO WHERE in his grammar does Wallace discuss the phrase "first day of the week." S is trying to mislead others in order to make them think Wallace does when Wallace does not.

Third, in Greek Grammar - Beyond the Basics Wallace mentions John 20:1 three time, twice on page 526 in notes 34 and 45 and once on page 528. In none of these does Wallace address the phrase "the first day of the week." Here are those citations for you to see yourself.

Page 625 note 34
View attachment 2051

Page 625 note 45
View attachment 2053

Page 528
View attachment 2052

The facts are:
(1) S knows absolutely NOTHING about Greek grammar and syntax.
(2) S is purposely being deceitful with his claims.


Correct! In Greek the phrase is idiomatic. This is nothing new. Thus the addition of the word "day" in English is necessary for clarification. See post 51 above for more information.

Appreciate your input.

Lees

 

[Stravinsk]

That question highlights your complete and utter lack of knowledge of Greek. The form is μιᾷ, however, it is clear you assume the word should be πρώτη. WRONG!
View attachment 2049
F. Blass, A. Debrunner, and Robert W. Funk clearly point out that "Μία = πρώτη." They cite examples both inside and outside the New Testament of that usage. Stop pretending you know anything about Greek. You don't.

F. Blass, A. Debrunner, and Robert W. Funk, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. (Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 1961), p. 129.

Very interesting that the first examples used here are of the passage in question, ie: the day of the resurrection. But let's see if your assertion (and Debrunner's apparently) make any sense when applied. Your assertion : Mia(one)=Protos(first)

Matt 19:30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Re-translated to fit your assertion it equals: But many that are ONE shall be last; and the last shall be ONE.

Mark 7:27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.

But Jesus said unto her, Let the children ONE be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.

Just do it yourself. There are tons of passages in the bible where substituting ONE for FIRST and vice versa, simply makes the passage without sense. Your apologists are ready with this answer when it suits the 1st day resurrection, but fail in the overall application of what they assert. They seem to be saying that the Greeks couldn't differentiate between the cardinal and ordinal forms, which is sort of basic when communicating amounts or position in every day language. Sorry, this is ridiculous.

The word for "week" and Sabbath are the same.
View attachment 2048
Context and syntax determines usage. Here Abbott-Smith, as every other lexicographer does, says it means "week" in John 20:1.

George Abbott-Smith, A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament. (Edinburgh, T. & T. Clark, 1922), pp. 399-400.


So pitiful and pathetic. You just could not admit that Wallace's grammar made no such claim.

I would ask you to do the same exercise as above, replace Sabbath with week wherever one finds it and see how that works. Why do you heal on the Week? Wait, what?? You mean sabbath right? No mate, week.

This is what's pathetic. You're just quoting an apologist without actually thinking about the application of what he says!

And besides, I already already pointed out that there IS a word for week in Greek, that would have been known at the time.
The word is "ἑβδομάς" or hebdomas and can be found in passages such as:

Genesis 29:27
Leviticus 23:15
Daniel 9:24

(in the LXX or Septuagint, available at the time!)

Sure! In Greek the phrase is idiomatic. Thus the addition of the word "day" in English is necessary for clarification. That are many example of that.

The fact is you don't know Greek. You don't understand anything about the grammar\syntax. End of story.

I know that the word "day" is added to fit the gender tense of "One" in John 20:1. In fact, it's added to every single resurrection passage, in English translations.

But what's really dishonest is that in this phrase "of the week"...if it were actually week not sabbath, should be correctly translated "weeks" because it's in plural form.

 

[Stravinsk]

And, you didn't answer my questions. What Greek text are you translating from? And what Bible demonstrates the translation you are presenting?

You presesnt yourself as 'one person' who knows more about the Greek then the myriads of translators who have translated the Bible. What a shame they didn't have you there to teach their 'lesser minds'.

Lees

Here's your lesson Lees, man of lesser mind (I'm referring to you, not them). You don't need to get the books I mentioned. Just apply the apologetics that is asserted by our member Origen here. Every time you see the word "first" or "one", replace them with the other, and every time you see Sabbath you can replace it with "week" and everything will make sense! lol. Because some apologist said so!

 

[Messy]

Very interesting that the first examples used here are of the passage in question, ie: the day of the resurrection. But let's see if your assertion (and Debrunner's apparently) make any sense when applied. Your assertion : Mia(one)=Protos(first)

Matt 19:30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Re-translated to fit your assertion it equals: But many that are ONE shall be last; and the last shall be ONE.

Mark 7:27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.

But Jesus said unto her, Let the children ONE be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.

Just do it yourself. There are tons of passages in the bible where substituting ONE for FIRST and vice versa, simply makes the passage without sense. Your apologists are ready with this answer when it suits the 1st day resurrection, but fail in the overall application of what they assert. They seem to be saying that the Greeks couldn't differentiate between the cardinal and ordinal forms, which is sort of basic when communicating amounts or position in every day language. Sorry, this is ridiculous.


I would ask you to do the same exercise as above, replace Sabbath with week wherever one finds it and see how that works. Why do you heal on the Week? Wait, what?? You mean sabbath right? No mate, week.

This is what's pathetic. You're just quoting an apologist without actually thinking about the application of what he says!

And besides, I already already pointed out that there IS a word for week in Greek, that would have been known at the time.
The word is "ἑβδομάς" or hebdomas and can be found in passages such as:

Genesis 29:27
Leviticus 23:15
Daniel 9:24

(in the LXX or Septuagint, available at the time!)




I know that the word "day" is added to fit the gender tense of "One" in John 20:1. In fact, it's added to every single resurrection passage, in English translations.

But what's really dishonest is that in this phrase "of the week"...if it were actually week not sabbath, should be correctly translated "weeks" because it's in plural form.

The only Greek I know is from Aviko, but I think you're right.

First of the Sabbaths vs. First Day of the Week

Zola's opinon of the time of the crucifixion and resurrection is not correct. Here is why.

torahtimes.org

 

[Origen]

Very interesting that the first examples used here are of the passage in question, ie: the day of the resurrection. But let's see if your assertion (and Debrunner's apparently) make any sense when applied. Your assertion : Mia(one)=Protos(first)

Not my assertion, Greek scholars. And these are certainly not the only ones. What are your qualifications?

Matt 19:30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Re-translated to fit your assertion it equals: But many that are ONE shall be last; and the last shall be ONE.

No need. It is not the same grammatical construction as John 20:1, and there is nothing wrong with it. You must not have read the grammar that was provide for you. Let me provide another grammar and another lexicon on the SAME topics.


J. H. Moulton, A Grammar of New Testament Greek; III, Syntax, by N. Turner (Edinburgh: Clark, 1962).


Note BDAG (p. 293) states it is a "marker of someth. that is first, the first," and it cites John 20:1 as an example.


Again you don't know Greek and clearly have no understanding of the vocabulary, grammar, or syntax.

You're just quoting an apologist without actually thinking about the application of what he says!

I have provided Greek grammars and Greek lexicons by qualified Greek scholars. You on the only hand have offered nothing but your false claim concerning Wallace. Given the fact you don't know Greek, there is no reason to believe anything you claim.

And besides, I already already pointed out that there IS a word for week in Greek, that would have been known at the time.

Yes! And guess what? You can have more than one word in a language with the same meaning. They are called synonyms. Your evidence is no evidence at all.

But what's really dishonest is that in this phrase "of the week"...if it were actually week not sabbath, should be correctly translated "weeks" because it's in plural form.

You are trying to make Greek grammar fit English grammar. The rules are not the same. There are things you can do in Greek that you would never do in English. This is not odd or strange, and those who know Greek have known it for 2000 years. Yet you, who does not know Greek, believe that qualified Greek scholars are wrong. Narcissistic much!

 

[Messy]

-

 

[Messy]

Mk 16:2 - The Women Came to the Tomb on a Sabbath

Mk 16:2: "And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they [the women] came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun." - This is the text of the KIng James Bible (KJV), but the basic Greek text speaks of a Sabbath. There are several variants in the Greek text families, which even...

bible-menorah.jimdofree.com

Martin Luther also translated correctly and wrote in 1522 and 1545 (last edition):
"And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene and Mary of James and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint him. 2 And they came to the tomb on a Sabbath very early, when the sun was rising.
Original German: „Und da der Sabbat vergangen war, kauften Maria Magdalena und Maria des Jakobus und Salome Spezerei, auf dass sie kämen und salbeten ihn. 2 Und sie kamen zum Grabe an einem Sabbater sehr frühe, da die Sonne aufging.“

Especially the old German Bibles were very accurate. Most of them were Catholic. Every child can understand this and does not equate Saturday with Sunday. Only the theologians do not know the difference between the days. It is not about the 7 Sundays to Pentecost, but about the 7 Saturdays to Pentecost. Therefore Mentelin writes that the women came to the tomb "on one of the Saturdays". It should not be forgotten that Mentelin translated from the Latin Vulgate, as the basic Greek text was not available to him. He grew up with the Latin language and knew that "sabbati" and "sabbatorum" can only mean Saturday and Sabbath, and never the day after, Sunday.