APOSTLE'S or NICENE Creed?

[prism]

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This is the Apostles' creed? That's not from the apostles. One holy catholic church?
Cause I wanted to say: well it does say I believe in the Holy Spirit, gifts of the Holy Spirit,
who confirms God's Word to us,
go and preach and heal, LOL but that's from the song. They just changed it.

I think it's called such because it reflects the teachings of the Apostles.

 

[Josiah]

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This is the Apostles' creed?

No one has ever claimed that the Apostles' WROTE it. But is has been claimed - for nearly 1800 years, Christians have claimed this represents the Apostle's faith.

One holy catholic church\

Yup. Exactly as the Bible states and Christians have always believed. Note that it's "catholic" and not "Catholic."




.

 

[prism]

Yup. Exactly as the Bible states and Christians have always believed. Note that it's "catholic" and not "Catholic."

I presume the [Roman] Catholic Church derived it's moniker from the Creed.

 

[prism]

Perhaps looking at the history of why the creeds were necessary would help you find the answers you are seeking.

I know it's history but the question still lingers. The Person of Christ and the Trinity were the first challenges so they were addressed in the Creeds.
I guess it shows the insufficiency of the Creeds as the attacks morph, in the turn of the 20th century the battle revolved around the inerrancy and today the sufficiency of Scripture.
If someone says 'well, the Creeds were focusing on the heart of the matter (Jesus Christ), I would only remind them that Scripture is the foundation.

 

[Lamb]

I know it's history but the question still lingers. The Person of Christ and the Trinity were the first challenges so they were addressed in the Creeds.
I guess it shows the insufficiency of the Creeds as the attacks morph, in the turn of the 20th century the battle revolved around the inerrancy and today the sufficiency of Scripture.
If someone says 'well, the Creeds were focusing on the heart of the matter (Jesus Christ), I would only remind them that Scripture is the foundation.

The creeds and scripture do not conflict. Are you insisting they do?

 

[prism]

The creeds and scripture do not conflict. Are you insisting they do?

No, I have already stated that the Creeds are based on Scripture...the very thing the Creeds leave out!

 

[Lamb]

No, I have already stated that the Creeds are based on Scripture...the very thing the Creeds leave out!

I'm confused I guess. Your gripe is that the creeds don't literally say that they're based on what the scriptures state?

 

[Albion]

If someone says 'well, the Creeds were focusing on the heart of the matter (Jesus Christ), I would only remind them that Scripture is the foundation.

The Creed is to be spoken. That's how it functions during the worship service. It's an affirmation of the speaker's belief in the contents.

To think that the contents are superfluous since, after all, "it's already in Scripture" is to treat the Creed as something it is not.

 

[prism]

The Creed is to be spoken. That's how it functions during the worship service. It's an affirmation of the speaker's belief in the contents.

To think that the contents are superfluous since, after all, "it's already in Scripture" is to treat the Creed as something it is not.

But isn't it based on Scripture?

 

[prism]

I'm confused I guess. Your gripe is that the creeds don't literally say that they're based on what the scriptures state?

No, there is no mention of the Scriptures in the Creeds even though they are based on the Scriptures.

 

[Albion]

No, there is no mention of the Scriptures in the Creeds even though they are based on the Scriptures.

You apparently don't know enough about this subject to be debating it.

Here's the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, commonly called the "Nicene Creed"--


"I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible; And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried; and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end."

 

[Lamb]

You apparently don't know enough about this subject to be debating it.

Here's the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, commonly called the "Nicene Creed"--


"I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible; And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried; and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end."

This is what's so confusing about this thread. I don't understand what the OP is trying to claim?

 

[Albion]

This is what's so confusing about this thread. I don't understand what the OP is trying to claim?

That's close to what I have been thinking also. The premise was about the author's interest in knowing which of the Creeds the members prefer, but his subsequent posts seem focused on finding some way or other of denigrating the Creeds as inadequate.

 

[prism]

That's close to what I have been thinking also. The premise was about the author's interest in knowing which of the Creeds the members prefer, but his subsequent posts seem focused on finding some way or other of denigrating the Creeds as inadequate.

You are totally wrong about my motive of denigrating. Just forget the topic if it's offensive to you.
And I'm not debating anything, I was just trying to get some clarification.

 

[prism]

This is what's so confusing about this thread. I don't understand what the OP is trying to claim?

Ditto to the above.

 

[prism]

You apparently don't know enough about this subject to be debating it.

Here's the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, commonly called the "Nicene Creed"--


"I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible; And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried; and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end."

'according to this Scriptues' is a direct quote from the Scriptures (1Cor 15:4)' it is not covering the nature of the Scriptures as it covers the Persons of the Godhead or as 2Tim 3:15-16 does.

IOW, it seems to be ignoring the very foundation it is built on.

 

[prism]

The Creeds are not sacrosanct. They are a brief compilation of the Scriptures by man and as such are subject to defeciencies and should not be treated as 'a Christian untouchable'.

 

[Josiah]

@prism

In classical theology, we speak of norma normans and norma normata. Two Latin phrases (unfortunately, theology is done in Latin!); the first means "the norm which norms" and the second, "the norm which has been normed." "Norm" has to do which a rule or canon that measures the correctness of a teaching.

In Protestant theology, Scripture (the words on the page) are the only norma normans (this is sometimes called "Sola Scripture" - Scripture alone is the norma normans), but other things can be normed BY that, and thus are norma normata. The Ecumenical Creeds are often considered norma normata. Sometimes the 7 Ecumenical Councils are considered norma normata. Each faith community usually considers it's own Confessions to be such.

I hope that helps...


- Josiah



.

 

[Albion]

'according to this Scriptues' is a direct quote from the Scriptures (1Cor 15:4)' it is not covering the nature of the Scriptures as it covers the Persons of the Godhead or as 2Tim 3:15-16 does.

Very amusing. You change your claim after what you wrote was refuted.

So now, let's move along to your next allegation....

The Creeds are not sacrosanct. They are a brief compilation of the Scriptures by man and as such are subject to defeciencies and should not be treated as 'a Christian untouchable'.

1. Well, no one said that the creeds are "sacrosanct."

2. They of course were written by men.

3. And they quite obviously are not considered "untouchable" since the original wording has been modified in some denominations and there are differences from denomination to denomination. So, no "untouchable" quality there.

 

[prism]

@prism

In classical theology, we speak of norma normans and norma normata. Two Latin phrases (unfortunately, theology is done in Latin!); the first means "the norm which norms" and the second, "the norm which has been normed." "Norm" has to do which a rule or canon that measures the correctness of a teaching.

In Protestant theology, Scripture (the words on the page) are the only norma normans (this is sometimes called "Sola Scripture" - Scripture alone is the norma normans), but other things can be normed BY that, and thus are norma normata. The Ecumenical Creeds are often considered norma normata. Sometimes the 7 Ecumenical Councils are considered norma normata. Each faith community usually considers it's own Confessions to be such.

I hope that helps...


- Josiah



.

So where do the Creeds fit into that Latin scenario.