Predestination

[Josiah]

.

Some Scriptures:

Ephesians 1:3-7
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

2 Thessalonians 2:13
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

Acts 13:48
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to believe."

Romans 8:30
"Those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

2 Timothy 1:9
"Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."

Matthew 24:22-24
"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

Others....
Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:20,22,27; Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1, etc., etc.


Some Notes:


1. This is about JUSTIFICATION (in the narrow sense), not philosophy. This doctrine does NOT hold that everything is predetermined. Because of this, Lutherans often avoid the word "predestination" (a philosophical word) and use the term "Election" (although both are used interchangeably in Scripture). This doctrine (held by Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans and Calvinists) has NOTHING to do with my having toast with peanut butter for breakfast this morning (I had "free will" there), it's NOT the philosophy of determinism.


2. Some confuse foreknowledge with predestination. They are not the same thing. Foreknowledge means to KNOW something before it happens. Predestination means to CAUSE it to happen. An illustration: I have foreknowledge that the sun will come up tomorrow. But I have nothing to do with it and do not cause it. They are two entirely different things.


3. As a Lutheran, I believe that there is mystery in soteriology (which is why Lutherans tend to stay out of the Arminianist/Calvinist fight). The exact interplay of faith and grace, the exact dynamics in HOW God saves us is simply not completely defined in Scripture - and thus we leave it as mystery. The bottom line is this: GOD is the Savior, not us. And we are justified by God's grace in Christ through our faith, which is the gift of God. THAT we affirm with passion! BTW, Lutherans tend to define "grace" here in a typically Protestant rather than Catholic manner, as God's undeserved, unmerited love, mercy and blessing, as getting what we don't deserve or earn; we don't define it as a "juice" God imputes in us that makes us able to do what we would not otherwise.


4. The doctrine of Predestination/Election applies to the granting of faith. It does NOT apply to the Cross but to faith. God predestines who will be granted the divine gift of faith, not whom God will love or for whom Christ will die. More on the difference between Lutheran and Calvinist ideas here: Why Lutheran Predestination isnt Calvinist Predestination | Mathew Block


5. There are two purposes/functions of this teaching.

A. Lutherans understand "predestination" (election) as GOSPEL. For Lutherans, whether something is Law or Gospel is key to understanding it, and we see this as Gospel. It is meant to comfort and assure BELIEVERS; it is not meant to be a 'terror of the conscience.' Let me use this illustration (however flawed). I was "born" by C-section because I had a severe (and potentially fatal) heart problem that needed immediate surgery; for sometime after my birth (and before my second surgery), I was quite limited in size and activities. Anyway, I SO VIVIDLY recall that when I was a little boy, I LOVED when my mother would tell me about before I was born. She told me how very much she loved me and how she prayed constantly for me. She told me how Dad traded in his beloved sports car for a station wagon, and gave up his office at home so it could be converted into a nursery for me (remember - the chances of me living were poor). They told me that the day of my birth and first surgery, my bother and sister both prayed out loud for me (I'd remember that when I had a fight with them!). And many friends, relatives and people from the church were at the hospital (some distance away since I was born at a children's teaching hospital affiliated with a university). Our pastor was there. Mom stressed to me how much I was loved EVEN BEFORE I WAS BORN. How much Mom and Dad wanted me, how much they did for me, the sacrifices they made for me. And they didn't know I would be such a smart, great, incredibly handsome guy. They loved me BEFORE I did ANYTHING. Now, here's the meaning of that for me: I felt comforted, assured. I KNEW they loved me. They'd get mad at me. Dad would sometimes discipline me, I had some ( now embarrassing) fights with my Mom. BUT I knew they loved me - unconditionally, not because of who I am or am not, but because they have this incredible ability to love. And nothing would change that, nothing would separate me from that. And they would sacrifice for me - and they did. I'd ask my Mom to tell me about before I was born - and she'd go over all that. Again and again. It's good to know.

B. It underlines SOLI DEO GLORIA, that justification (narrow) is GOD'S work and gift, not a reward for dead, unregenerate, atheistic, enemies of God adequately jumping though a series of hoops. Since the key is before we were born, obviously it's not based in our works but God's heart.


6. The doctrine of election not only places all our confidence, hope, comfort and courage in GOD (see point #5 above) but it also takes the pride and burden off of us. We are not the Savior, God is. The doctrine of election builds humility, as well as hope and comfort. God's love and gifts flow from His heart, not our merits. This teaching causes humility and confidence.


7. It is (perhaps) logical to conclude that since God only gives faith to SOME, ergo He desires all others to fry in hell. If not by actively CAUSING such then by simply "passing over" them. Logical, perhaps, but very unbiblical. The Bible says that Jesus came to ALL, that He died for ALL, that God desires ALL to be saved. So while this point (made by a few latter-day radical Calvinists) makes some sense, it flat out contradicts Scripture... and it turns a doctrine of great comfort into a horrible terror, changes God from loving to a monster. Again, we have mystery here: God's grace is universal.... God desires all to be saved... Jesus died for all.... God gives faith to some. In the opinion of historic, orthodox Christianity, it is best to leave this where Scripture does and to accept we just don't understand how this cranks out in practice RATHER THAN impose teachings that directly contradict Scripture (the definition of heresy).



Blessings!


Josiah



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[atpollard]

which is why Lutherans tend to stay out of the Arminianist/Calvinist fight

… evidence to the contrary, notwithstanding.

 

[Albion]

which is why Lutherans tend to stay out of the Arminianist/Calvinist fight).

From all that I know, what you said there is accurate.

Not that there aren't some Lutherans who do involve themselves in that fight, and it would be a amazing if it were possible to show that there is not a single Lutheran who has taken it up, but on the whole and as a denomination, no.

That's important, since Lutherans are not known for being generally disinterested in precision when it comes to doctrine. (!)

 

[MoreCoffee]

I wonder what this whole "Predestination" thing is about anyway. What I mean is this;

• God knows all that can be known.
• God has power to do anything that can be done.

So, the predestination thing is about what?

Is it that God plans everything that we see happening? That God "makes" is all happen?

If so in what way?​

Doesn't explaining this end up in philosophy rather quickly?

I see that what I've written above is pretty much a summary with much less detail than the original post. And For the most part what is in the original post is cogent and relevant; it is closer to a Catholic perspective than anything I've seen from any Reformed Christian.

 

[Messy]

I wonder what this whole "Predestination" thing is about anyway. What I mean is this;

• God knows all that can be known.
• God has power to do anything that can be done.

So, the predestination thing is about what?

Is it that God plans everything that we see happening? That God "makes" is all happen?

If so in what way?​

Doesn't explaining this end up in philosophy rather quickly?

I see that what I've written above is pretty much a summary with much less detail than the original post. And For the most part what is in the original post is cogent and relevant; it is closer to a Catholic perspective than anything I've seen from any Reformed Christian.

Yes it's philosophy. A guy I heard yesterday said it's just the age old Plato debate with a christian sauce.

Plato's understanding of free will is contrary to Aristotle. Plato's account is that we are only exercising free will by consciously choosing to be good over naturally succumbing to evil.

According to the Aristotle, free will and moral responsibility is determined by our character. 2) According to absolute free will (indeterminism), free actions cannot be determined in any fashion.

 

[Josiah]

I wonder what this whole "Predestination" thing is about anyway. What I mean is this;
So, the predestination thing is about what?

@MoreCoffee It affirms the teaching of the Bible. Some Christians think it's good and right to agree and affirm what God states in His Scriptures to us.

For example:

Ephesians 1:3-7
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

2 Thessalonians 2:13
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

Acts 13:48
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to believe."

Romans 8:30
"Those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

2 Timothy 1:9
"Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."

Matthew 24:22-24
"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

Others....
Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:20,22,27; Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1, etc., etc., etc.

Is it that God plans everything that we see happening?

No. It has nothing to do with the Greek philosophy of determinism.

The Catholic Church agrees with most Protestants in this (CCC 257, 321, etc.). But like most Protestants, it rejects "double predestination" (CCC 999, etc.). And in the Catholic Church as among most Protestants, this is seen as Gospel and not in the sense of the Greek philosophy of determinism (God did NOT predestine me to eat oatmeal for breakfast today, LOL).

TULIP of course is a different view.... one that IMO the vast majority of Calvinists now reject; they have "reinterpreted" things so as the "read" their confessions to agree with the traditional Christian view and the teaching of Scripture. But "hyper" Calvinists still hold to the original view specifically rejected by Catholicism, Lutheranism and Anglicanism.



.

 

[bbas 64]

Good day,

Dr. Reeves does a mighty fine job here:

 

[Josiah]

@bbas 64


Blessings, Bill....

Thanks for sharing! I found it interesting. And I largely agree with him, generally. And I'd direct folks to my opening post.


But some (misc and random) comments:

1. I think the good doctor hit the nail on the head in saying that Luther approaches this in a more pastoral approach, Calvin in a more philosophical/systemmatic/academic manner. IMO, Luther saw this as interrelated to monergism, security, pelagianism, GRACE. Calvin sees it more separate and independent. In other words, Calvin looks at this more academically, Luther more pastorally. And I think here too we see the Lutheran willingness to embrace mystery whereas Calvin ventures into academic questions with "answers."

2. The good doctor says that very few Lutherans hold to predestination today but offers no evidence). News to me!! Now, I "run" in conservative, LCMS circles and I realize there are over 70 million Lutherans around the world, but his comment is by no means my experience. Although Lutherans often don't call this Predestination, we tend to call it Election (the Bible uses the words interchangably).

3. There's a possible misunderstanding if we confuse Lutherans with Luther and (even more) when we confuse Reformed with Calvin. Lutherans don't follow Luther. Perhaps 1/100th of 1% of his writings are considered confessional (LOL) and in my studies, I found it quoted seldom. Reformed quote his "Bondage of the Will" far more than Lutherans do. It seems the same is true for the Reformed. We need to be a bit careful about assuming either group parrots the "founder."

4. Without a doubt, both Lutherans and Reformed are SOLIDLY and PASSIONATELY monergists. Much of Luther's thoughts are formed by his rejection of pelagianism and synergism. And Calvin is the same. But for Lutherans, predestination (We like to call it Election) is framed entirely in that context (the good doctor makes this point, too). For Luther, this is intrigal to Soli Deo Gloria. It's the counterpoint to works righteousness in inititial justification. And since justification is a matter of pure GRACE, so is predestination.

5. I'm the antithesis of an expert on Calvin, but I wonder if for Luther, this topic (admittedly more limited and focused) is a pastoral issue of a) keeping us from pelagianism and (his passionate desire that Jesus be embraced as THE Savior, the One who does it 100%) and more importantly b) comfort. Thus the Lutheran emphasis that this is GRACE.

6. Luther was not a philosopher (he has a rather complex view of philosophy... arguing both ways), and I was taught, not really a systemmatician. That role belongs to others (Melanchthon, etc.), he was always a pastor. Focused on how this applies to saints and sinners, the flock, lives. And he is always aware that God is above us, that God tells us what we need to know for His purpose, not the answers to every question we might have. I wonder is Luther starts from the position of God's grace and proceeds with humility (and his willingness to embrace mystery, his point of "letting God has the last word" and "leave it where Scripture does". Calvin perhaps starts with the soverignty of God (a term you rarely hear from Lutherans) and a much more academic, philosophical approach seeking to understand?

7. So, I think I agree with the video. Both stress this as part of their monergism/anti-Pelagianism. But I think the "spirit" and application differ. Luther comes at this out of his pastoral concern.... and sees this as keeping the flock focused entirely on Jesus and knowing His amazing grace in their lives (and that it not be abused by becoming "cheap grace"). Calvin (like Augustine) takes a much more philosphical/academic approach flowing from his stress on the soverignty of God... and this empowers him to "go" where Luther does not.


Just some quick misc. thoughts.


Blessings!


- Josiah


.

 

[Tulipbee]

Hey Josiah,

Thanks for diving deep into the Scriptures and laying out your perspective on predestination and election from a Lutheran standpoint. It's a complex and nuanced topic, and your detailed exploration is appreciated.

In comparing this with traditional Calvinism, both systems share certain threads, particularly in the emphasis on God's sovereignty and the predestined nature of salvation. However, nuances in understanding the scope and application of predestination create distinctions.

Calvinism, as you might know, often involves the TULIP acronym, where "U" stands for unconditional election. This aligns with the idea that God's choice of individuals for salvation is not based on foreseen faith or any merit within the person.

Your focus on predestination applying to the granting of faith, not the Cross itself, aligns more with Calvinistic perspectives. The emphasis on mystery in soteriology is intriguing and echoes the Calvinist acknowledgment of divine sovereignty surpassing human understanding.

Your portrayal of predestination as a source of comfort and assurance for believers resonates with Calvinism's perspective of the doctrine being a source of confidence in God's eternal plan.

The distinction between foreknowledge and predestination is crucial and aligns with Calvinist distinctions between God's foreknowledge and His sovereign decree.

Your emphasis on God's universal desire for all to be saved and Jesus' death for all reflects a common theological challenge. In Calvinism, the concept of limited atonement grapples with this tension, suggesting Christ's sacrifice was specifically for the elect.

It's evident that both perspectives aim to glorify God and recognize Him as the ultimate Savior. The nuanced differences in the understanding of predestination add depth to our exploration of these profound theological concepts.

Blessings to you too!

 

[BruceLeiter]

.

Some Scriptures:

Ephesians 1:3-7
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

2 Thessalonians 2:13
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

Acts 13:48
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to believe."

Romans 8:30
"Those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

2 Timothy 1:9
"Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."

Matthew 24:22-24
"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

Others....
Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:20,22,27; Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1, etc., etc.


Some Notes:


1. This is about JUSTIFICATION (in the narrow sense), not philosophy. This doctrine does NOT hold that everything is predetermined. Because of this, Lutherans often avoid the word "predestination" (a philosophical word) and use the term "Election" (although both are used interchangeably in Scripture). This doctrine (held by Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans and Calvinists) has NOTHING to do with my having toast with peanut butter for breakfast this morning (I had "free will" there), it's NOT the philosophy of determinism.


2. Some confuse foreknowledge with predestination. They are not the same thing. Foreknowledge means to KNOW something before it happens. Predestination means to CAUSE it to happen. An illustration: I have foreknowledge that the sun will come up tomorrow. But I have nothing to do with it and do not cause it. They are two entirely different things.


3. As a Lutheran, I believe that there is mystery in soteriology (which is why Lutherans tend to stay out of the Arminianist/Calvinist fight). The exact interplay of faith and grace, the exact dynamics in HOW God saves us is simply not completely defined in Scripture - and thus we leave it as mystery. The bottom line is this: GOD is the Savior, not us. And we are justified by God's grace in Christ through our faith, which is the gift of God. THAT we affirm with passion! BTW, Lutherans tend to define "grace" here in a typically Protestant rather than Catholic manner, as God's undeserved, unmerited love, mercy and blessing, as getting what we don't deserve or earn; we don't define it as a "juice" God imputes in us that makes us able to do what we would not otherwise.


4. The doctrine of Predestination/Election applies to the granting of faith. It does NOT apply to the Cross but to faith. God predestines who will be granted the divine gift of faith, not whom God will love or for whom Christ will die. More on the difference between Lutheran and Calvinist ideas here: Why Lutheran Predestination isnt Calvinist Predestination | Mathew Block


5. There are two purposes/functions of this teaching.

A. Lutherans understand "predestination" (election) as GOSPEL. For Lutherans, whether something is Law or Gospel is key to understanding it, and we see this as Gospel. It is meant to comfort and assure BELIEVERS; it is not meant to be a 'terror of the conscience.' Let me use this illustration (however flawed). I was "born" by C-section because I had a severe (and potentially fatal) heart problem that needed immediate surgery; for sometime after my birth (and before my second surgery), I was quite limited in size and activities. Anyway, I SO VIVIDLY recall that when I was a little boy, I LOVED when my mother would tell me about before I was born. She told me how very much she loved me and how she prayed constantly for me. She told me how Dad traded in his beloved sports car for a station wagon, and gave up his office at home so it could be converted into a nursery for me (remember - the chances of me living were poor). They told me that the day of my birth and first surgery, my bother and sister both prayed out loud for me (I'd remember that when I had a fight with them!). And many friends, relatives and people from the church were at the hospital (some distance away since I was born at a children's teaching hospital affiliated with a university). Our pastor was there. Mom stressed to me how much I was loved EVEN BEFORE I WAS BORN. How much Mom and Dad wanted me, how much they did for me, the sacrifices they made for me. And they didn't know I would be such a smart, great, incredibly handsome guy. They loved me BEFORE I did ANYTHING. Now, here's the meaning of that for me: I felt comforted, assured. I KNEW they loved me. They'd get mad at me. Dad would sometimes discipline me, I had some ( now embarrassing) fights with my Mom. BUT I knew they loved me - unconditionally, not because of who I am or am not, but because they have this incredible ability to love. And nothing would change that, nothing would separate me from that. And they would sacrifice for me - and they did. I'd ask my Mom to tell me about before I was born - and she'd go over all that. Again and again. It's good to know.

B. It underlines SOLI DEO GLORIA, that justification (narrow) is GOD'S work and gift, not a reward for dead, unregenerate, atheistic, enemies of God adequately jumping though a series of hoops. Since the key is before we were born, obviously it's not based in our works but God's heart.


6. The doctrine of election not only places all our confidence, hope, comfort and courage in GOD (see point #5 above) but it also takes the pride and burden off of us. We are not the Savior, God is. The doctrine of election builds humility, as well as hope and comfort. God's love and gifts flow from His heart, not our merits. This teaching causes humility and confidence.


7. It is (perhaps) logical to conclude that since God only gives faith to SOME, ergo He desires all others to fry in hell. If not by actively CAUSING such then by simply "passing over" them. Logical, perhaps, but very unbiblical. The Bible says that Jesus came to ALL, that He died for ALL, that God desires ALL to be saved. So while this point (made by a few latter-day radical Calvinists) makes some sense, it flat out contradicts Scripture... and it turns a doctrine of great comfort into a horrible terror, changes God from loving to a monster. Again, we have mystery here: God's grace is universal.... God desires all to be saved... Jesus died for all.... God gives faith to some. In the opinion of historic, orthodox Christianity, it is best to leave this where Scripture does and to accept we just don't understand how this cranks out in practice RATHER THAN impose teachings that directly contradict Scripture (the definition of heresy).



Blessings!


Josiah



.

Your post is too long to respond to effectively. Which statement do you want people to talk about first?

 

[BruceLeiter]

I wonder what this whole "Predestination" thing is about anyway. What I mean is this;

• God knows all that can be known.
• God has power to do anything that can be done.

So, the predestination thing is about what?

Is it that God plans everything that we see happening? That God "makes" is all happen?

If so in what way?​

Doesn't explaining this end up in philosophy rather quickly?

I see that what I've written above is pretty much a summary with much less detail than the original post. And For the most part what is in the original post is cogent and relevant; it is closer to a Catholic perspective than anything I've seen from any Reformed Christian.

The Reformed view of the topic of predestination is Bible's view in the following passages:
Gen 50:18 His brothers also came and fell down before him and said, “Behold, we are your servants.”
Gen 50:19 But Joseph said to them, “Do not fear, for am I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
Gen 50:21 So do not fear; I will provide for you and your little ones.” Thus he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.
Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
ph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Psa 47:6 Sing praises to God, sing praises! Sing praises to our King, sing praises!
Psa 47:7 For God is the King of all the earth; sing praises with a psalm!
Psa 47:8 God reigns over the nations; God sits on his holy throne.

At the very same time, all humans are fully responsible for everything they do, say, and think, as the Bible points out in many passages. How these two themes in the Bible work together is a mystery, but Joseph's comment about God and his brothers is true to the rest of the Scriptures.

 

[prism]

Doesn't explaining this end up in philosophy rather quickly?

Only when the topic ignores Scripture

 

[prism]

we don't define it as a "juice" God imputes in us that makes us able to do what we would not otherwise.

Wouldn't that be 'a juice God infuses'?