The dead malls

[Jazzy]

What's a good use for dead malls?

 

[ValleyGal]

Housing.
Medical hubs.
Government processing (passports, applications and information for seniors, housing, employment insurance, taxes, business licensing, etc). Small business offices/shared space for those who don't want to work from home.
Small-class community college or school.
Install lighting and plastics, and create indoor raised garden plots like a greenhouse.
Indoor playgrounds for adults and children.
Hostel.

Or knock it down and build any of the above. Where I live, we knock down the middle of the malls and then build independent stores all over the parking lot. Waste of space and a real pain in the rainy season or winter when we have to go outdoors and across the parking lot to get to another store. Makes parking a nightmare, too.

 

[Albion]

What's a good use for dead malls?

I'm close to convinced that there isn't one.

Not unless it's for some sort of warehousing or storage facilities. In other words, a kind of business that requires a lot of space but isn't in the ordinary business of retailing. Our society has moved too far into mail order purchases for the typical mall of yesteryear to make a comeback.

It's been said that unused mall space could be turned into lawyers' or insurance agencies, government offices, educational facilities, beauty parlors, and the like. However, not many people want to get to such services by walking a quarter mile through a mostly deserted building, so that's why such businesses are preferring to locate in strip malls when given a choice. These are much better suited to serving the elderly and handicapped in addition to the esthetics involved. And outdoor malls are actually reviving now, after years of being half-empty.

 

[tango]

I'm close to convinced that there isn't one.

I'm increasingly inclined to agree. I can't help wondering whether part of the problem is that the kind of small businesses that might breathe life back into malls are going to be turned away by requirements to be open for extended hours. And of course small businesses simply can't fill the kind of spaces that the so-called "anchor stores" once filled.

Not unless it's for some sort of warehousing or storage facilities. In other words, a kind of business that requires a lot of space but isn't in the ordinary business of retailing. Our society has moved too far into mail order purchases for the typical mall of yesteryear to make a comeback.

It's a shame that physical retail has died down so much. There's something to be said for being able to try things on before buying them, and something to be said for being able to hand over your money and walk out with your item rather than being told "delivery on Tuesday, between 7am and 9pm", hoping it actually shows up on Tuesday, and wondering whether you need to stay in all day because it might require a signature, and then finding you got sent the wrong thing so you have to start the entire process over again.

It's been said that unused mall space could be turned into lawyers' offices, educational facilities, beauty parlors, and the like. However, not many people want to search out such services by walking a quarter mile through a nearly-deserted building, so that's why any such offices tend to locate in strip malls instead which are much better for the elderly and handicapped in addition to the esthetics involved. And outdoor malls are actually reviving now, after years of being half-empty.

The issue of opening hours probably also sways the location of such offices. I can't imagine a lawyer signing up to rent office space if the standard contract requires them to be open whenever the mall is open. A mall near where my wife grew up is all but dead now and when one major retailer moved in to a former "anchor store" spot in it they actually closed off the entrance from inside the mall so you have to go outside. But it means they can keep their own hours regardless of what the mall is doing. Presumably they had enough clout, or the mall was desperate enough to fill some space, that they agreed to it.

Indoor malls can be handy in that there's no need to be constantly going indoors and outdoors, which can get tedious when it's either really cold or really hot. When they are all but deserted they just look even more depressing, when it becomes clear that there are more staff than shoppers, and when the staff look so bored it's like a huge relief to see someone actually walking in to the store.

 

[Albion]

I'm increasingly inclined to agree. I can't help wondering whether part of the problem is that the kind of small businesses that might breathe life back into malls are going to be turned away by requirements to be open for extended hours. And of course small businesses simply can't fill the kind of spaces that the so-called "anchor stores" once filled.



It's a shame that physical retail has died down so much. There's something to be said for being able to try things on before buying them, and something to be said for being able to hand over your money and walk out with your item rather than being told "delivery on Tuesday, between 7am and 9pm", hoping it actually shows up on Tuesday, and wondering whether you need to stay in all day because it might require a signature, and then finding you got sent the wrong thing so you have to start the entire process over again.



The issue of opening hours probably also sways the location of such offices. I can't imagine a lawyer signing up to rent office space if the standard contract requires them to be open whenever the mall is open.

In my experience, that isn't actually a problem. Because the foot traffic is so low, almost all of the businesses still existing in the once-bustling mall that's near my home have cut their hours back drastically, often being open only several days of the week and then only from something like 11AM to 7 PM or so. It can't be that all mall owners have the same policies, but that's what I've seen.

A mall near where my wife grew up is all but dead now and when one major retailer moved in to a former "anchor store" spot in it they actually closed off the entrance from inside the mall so you have to go outside.

Right. Most of the businesses that survive here are the ones that always did have direct access to the parking lots as well as an inside entrance. They're the larger ones, of course, that probably had a better chance of surviving anyway. But the smaller ones that only had an interior entrance are mainly abandoned now.

Indoor malls can be handy in that there's no need to be constantly going indoors and outdoors, which can get tedious when it's either really cold or really hot. When they are all but deserted they just look even more depressing, when it becomes clear that there are more staff than shoppers, and when the staff look so bored it's like a huge relief to see someone actually walking in to the store.

LOL. Yes, I sometimes wonder how it would be to work in such a store. Time would seem to pass sooo slowly!

 

[tango]

In my experience, that isn't actually a problem. Because the foot traffic is so low, almost all of the businesses still existing in the once-bustling mall that's near my home have cut their hours back drastically, often being open only several days of the week and then only from something like 11AM to 7 PM or so. It can't be that all mall owners have the same policies, but that's what I've seen.

I guess malls adapt to an extent and vary the rules a little.

One mall near me, that's now all but dead, used to have pop-up retailers all over the place during the peak Christmas season. One year I thought about getting a spot for a side line I had going but when I read the requirements there was no way I could have managed to keep anything staffed with just myself and my wife. And that was just for a pop-up booth rather than a fixed store. Even if it had been my primary business I'd have struggled to keep it staffed without hiring enough people that the profit margins would all but vanish.

Right. Most of the businesses that survive here are the ones that always did have direct access to the parking lots as well as an inside entrance. They're the larger ones, of course, that probably had a better chance of surviving anyway. But the smaller ones that only had an interior entrance are mainly abandoned now.

LOL. Yes, I sometimes wonder how it would be to work in such a store. Time would seem to pass sooo slowly!

The all-but dead mall I mentioned above has two stores in it that my wife and I visit two or three times a year. The staff there often recognise us, which is sad given how infrequent our visits are - I guess it means they are never very busy, or very few people bother to take the time to engage with the staff beyond handing over payment. They've often said how soul-destroying it is to be expected to sit in the store when there are no customers. Of course there's usually only one person in a smaller store, so if they need to go to the bathroom they have to close the store for a few minutes while they do. I can't imagine it's very hard to find a time when the store has no customers in it at all, it's just a bit of a nuisance for them if they have to close and lock the store, walk to the far end of the mall where the bathrooms are, and see to business. Hopefully for their sake they have a staff bathroom in the back somewhere.

 

[Albion]

One mall near me, that's now all but dead, used to have pop-up retailers all over the place during the peak Christmas season. One year I thought about getting a spot for a side line I had going but when I read the requirements there was no way I could have managed to keep anything staffed with just myself and my wife. And that was just for a pop-up booth rather than a fixed store.

I remember now how that was. I was thinking of having a similar pop-up business myself one Christmas season and the mall office was clear that I must keep the thing open and operating for a really long time every day. These seasonal mini-businesses were important only as holiday decorations or attractions that might bring shoppers to the permanent stores.

Another point about these malls today...

They once did succeed because of window-shoppers. The mall was the place to experience something. People liked to survey the array, even if they didn't have anything in mind to buy.

The indoor mall can't survive today if there are only a handful of stores, and that's because the idea of "going shopping" in general is lost. You might want what one store sells and head there, but what's in the rest of the mall is not a factor.

 

[tango]

I remember now how that was. I was thinking of having a similar pop-up business myself one Christmas season and the mall office was clear that I must keep the thing open and operating for a really long time every day. These seasonal mini-businesses were important only as holiday decorations or attractions that might bring shoppers to the permanent stores.

I hadn't thought about it like that but I guess you're right. And it's impossible for an individual or a couple to sensibly keep a booth staffed for 14 hours a day, 7 days a week, for 6-8 weeks.

Another point about these malls today...

They once did succeed because of window-shoppers. The mall was the place to experience something. People liked to survey the array, even if they didn't have anything in mind to buy.

The indoor mall can't survive today if there are only a handful of stores, and that's because the idea of "going shopping" in general is lost. You might want what one store sells and head there, but what's in the rest of the mall is not a factor.

That's another good point. The times my wife and I go to the mall we are interested in two stores and will visit one or both of them. As far as the rest of the stores go we look around to see just how dead the place is and wonder how long it will be before the bulldozers put the whole place out of its misery.

 

[Messy]

Dead malls? I didn't know that was a thing. Housing. We have Ukrainians living in the office where I work since more ppl work from home since covid.

 

[Jazzy]

They could be large community centers. They could use the fountains areas for seating and places to lounge. Build a track path so people can run, jog, walk safetly (remember the mall walkers). Each old mall store could also be a designated area like food pantry, indoor sports areas, a library type area where people can donate books, like the possibility is really endless.

 

[tango]

They could be large community centers. They could use the fountains areas for seating and places to lounge. Build a track path so people can run, jog, walk safetly (remember the mall walkers). Each old mall store could also be a designated area like food pantry, indoor sports areas, a library type area where people can donate books, like the possibility is really endless.

A track path would be great but I can't see running, jogging and walking working in the same space at the same time. My local mall is all but dead - probably 40-50% of the stores are empty - but I still can't see using the space for running being safe when there are still a few people about, many of whom are paying incredibly little attention to their surroundings.

There are lots of possibilities in theory but hard to see how a lot of them would work in practise. Indoor sports areas would probably require something larger than the average mall store and the whole lot would run into the usual issues of management, bills, insurance etc.

 

[Albion]

A track path would be great but I can't see running, jogging and walking working in the same space at the same time. My local mall is all but dead - probably 40-50% of the stores are empty - but I still can't see using the space for running being safe when there are still a few people about, many of whom are paying incredibly little attention to their surroundings.

There are lots of possibilities in theory but hard to see how a lot of them would work in practise. Indoor sports areas would probably require something larger than the average mall store and the whole lot would run into the usual issues of management, bills, insurance etc.

It may be that "the problem" with this situation is that malls normally had many, many stores (that's what made the idea successful) and without them there's no single alternative, whether it be a sports facility, law firms, farmerss markets, government offices or anything else.

The suggested remedy for near-empty malls--attracting all these other kinds of outfits--fails because no one needs 80 law offices or pachinko parlors, or whatever, and certainly not in one place.

 

[tango]

It may be that "the problem" with this situation is that malls normally had many, many stores (that's what made the idea successful) and without them there's no single alternative, whether it be a sports facility, law firms, farmerss markets, government offices or anything else.

That's very true - there's a definite attraction to having a wide variety of stores to browse even if only as a way to while away an hour or two. I guess a dead mall could be converted into offices but it would take a fair amount of redesign unless the offices were intended to be at least somewhat open to the public. Something like a government office might work, a consulting business might work, a software development company probably wouldn't work and anything involving manufacturing at any scale almost certainly wouldn't work. And then there's still the question of the wide open public space in the middle of it all - someone has to pay to maintain it which makes the use of former stores as offices a more expensive and therefore less attractive proposition.

The suggested remedy for near-empty malls--attracting all these other kinds of outfits--fails because no one needs 80 law offices or pachinko parlors, or whatever, and certainly not in one place.

If the mall was attractive to such businesses the chances are they would already have taken up residence in one of the numerous empty storefronts. Once the rot sets in - stores close, people stop going to the mall, more stores close, more people stop going to the mall, more stores close, rinse and repeat - it's hard to see how to reverse it. Even with the so-called anchor stores there are only so many retailers big enough to move in to a honking great unit and the concept that people go to the mall to visit the anchor stores and then browse the smaller stores while they are there may not apply so much any more because so people are bought into the "busy busy busy" mindset they don't want to spend time browsing. Chances are they'll spend just as much time browsing from their computer when they get home, but browsing in a physical store means being somewhere other than their recliner.

 

[ValleyGal]

The suggested remedy for near-empty malls--attracting all these other kinds of outfits--fails because no one needs 80 law offices or pachinko parlors, or whatever, and certainly not in one place.

I don't think anyone suggested 80 of the same thing. Where I live, we have a massive office building with a lot of little offices that anyone can rent. A psychologist might be next door to an accountant who might be next door to a computer geek, and so on. Self-employed people who can't or don't want to work from home. Malls would require renovations to do anything other than retail. They can either invest in another use for it, tear it down and build something else, or abandon it. The building is there. If it's not falling apart, the wise thing is to renovate what's there.

My town has two malls. One was just torn down mostly, in favor of blocks of shops in a massive parking lot. The other is also renovating and they are shutting down the food court, leaving a lot of seniors out of luck when it comes to getting out of the house and visiting with their friends. Those seniors are going to have a tough time finding a place to visit because the coffee shops are small around here and only allow you to stay for a short time. The food court is being turned into a liquor store, which will make three liquor stores within half a kilometer radius. And nowhere for the seniors to go.

People who own malls that are dying would do well to go to their city and to the residents to find out what is most needed. Likely they will say housing, which is a possibility up top by adding a floor or two, but on the main floor there might be needed for other things like an urgent care centre with all the imaging, labs, counselling, OT, PT, Pharm, safe injection, all there on site so people don't have to go to a tiny hole in the tree and wait outside for three hours to get their blood drawn or wait for two months to get an x-ray. Or it might be needed for recreation - a performing arts centre with other areas for the arts, craft centres, indoor play for children, indoor play for adults. Or it might be needed for a supported living facility, part for seniors and part for people who have developmental, abi, or mental health challenges.

I do think it should be in consult with the city though. The one mall here that's all torn down in favor of a bunch of little shops in blocks all over the parking lot - I don't think that will last. Actually, that mall should have been turned into a Costco.

 

[tango]

I don't think anyone suggested 80 of the same thing. Where I live, we have a massive office building with a lot of little offices that anyone can rent. A psychologist might be next door to an accountant who might be next door to a computer geek, and so on. Self-employed people who can't or don't want to work from home. Malls would require renovations to do anything other than retail. They can either invest in another use for it, tear it down and build something else, or abandon it. The building is there. If it's not falling apart, the wise thing is to renovate what's there.

But there lies the problem. If there's going to be a lot of renovation required (and there will be, turning retail space into something totally different) the question endlessly falls back to who is going to pay for all that renovation?

Maybe office space would be wonderful, maybe you could find commercial tenants who would use it, but the maintenance of public spaces that don't add any value to the office occupants would still end up as part of the rent. Self employed people who want an office away from home are unlikely to want as much space as even the smallest unit in a shopping mall, so you'd need a way to subdivide them while giving each unit its own security.

For good measure a lot of people who might want a small office away from home probably also want some peace and quiet. The last thing I'd want is to rent an office only to find it's next door to the kind of clothing store that plays loud music all the time, or next to the gym, or whatever else. So your mixed usage immediately needs certain types of usage to be kept apart. Given malls aren't generally designed with sound proofing in mind, you even have the potential for conflict if the occupant of one unit puts the radio on while the occupant of the next unit is trying to concentrate or host a meeting. So there's extra renovation needed, with extra costs, with no guarantee that the new usage will do any better than the current one.

 

[Albion]

I don't think anyone suggested 80 of the same thing.

The point there was that this is what made malls the success that they were (lots of retail stores in one location), so without that format, the suggested replacements won't work to make these malls successful again.

Malls would require renovations to do anything other than retail. They can either invest in another use for it, tear it down and build something else, or abandon it.

Well, yes, making your nearly-empty mall function again by turning it into something other than a mall would "work," but it wouldn't be a repurposed mall.

My town has two malls. One was just torn down mostly, in favor of blocks of shops in a massive parking lot.

See the comment above.

 

[ValleyGal]

Turning a mall into something else IS repurposing the mall. Take a pair of jeans, cut off the legs and do some alterations and it is no longer a pair of jeans, but now a purse. The purse is repurposed jeans. Mall buildings do not have to still just be retail. The building can be renovated and repurposed into other uses. That's the point. Yes, renovations cost a lot of money. But so did building the mall to start with. It's probably paid off, so the owner can do what they want with it, whether it's another form of retail or something altogether different. Repurposed. Finding a new purpose for an old building that was a mall.

It does not need to be 80 of one thing. It used to be 80 stores. Now it can be 5 boutiques in one of the anchor stores, an indoor play area in another anchor store, and a whole string of smaller stores can be turned into a long string of offices and another section can be turned into a botanical garden under sun lamps with a walking path, and another section can be a small cafe, and there could be a medical lab in one section. Why wouldn't that work? People renovate all the time, and if a town needs the above things, then why not build it to suit the new tenants?

And who is going to pay for the renovations? Well, malls made the owners of the mall very rich. They likely don't owe anything by the time it dies out, so they take out equity loans and build to suit, and charge the new tenants rent. And yes, malls have been repurposed, can be renovated for almost anything, and walls can be built and knocked down. They can be insulated for privacy.

The building where I work used to be a massive call centre. Now there is a thrift shop on one side, a furniture warehouse on the other side, and I work in a medical facility in between the two. Our medical facility is a clinic where we have exam rooms, counselling rooms, OT, PT, homelessness outreach, and as we expand there will be pharm and obesity clinic. We also have a sacred space for Indigenous people. All of this requires the highest quality of soundproofing and other privacy and safety measures. It works. So if a massive, open call centre can be turned into a warehouse, retail and medical, then a mall can be turned into whatever the owner decides they want to do with it, and as Jazzy said, the possibilities are endless.

 

[Albion]

Turning a mall into something else IS repurposing the mall.

I think what you've described amounts to repurposing the SITE, but not the mall.

It does not need to be 80 of one thing. It used to be 80 stores. Now it can be 5 boutiques in one of the anchor stores, an indoor play area in another anchor store, and a whole string of smaller stores can be turned into a long string of offices and another section can be turned into a botanical garden under sun lamps with a walking path, and another section can be a small cafe, and there could be a medical lab in one section. Why wouldn't that work? People renovate all the time, and if a town needs the above things, then why not build it to suit the new tenants?

And who is going to pay for the renovations? Well, malls made the owners of the mall very rich. They likely don't owe anything by the time it dies out, so they take out equity loans and build to suit, and charge the new tenants rent. And yes, malls have been repurposed, can be renovated for almost anything, and walls can be built and knocked down. They can be insulated for privacy.

The building where I work used to be a massive call centre. Now there is a thrift shop on one side, a furniture warehouse on the other side, and I work in a medical facility in between the two. Our medical facility is a clinic where we have exam rooms, counselling rooms, OT, PT, homelessness outreach, and as we expand there will be pharm and obesity clinic. We also have a sacred space for Indigenous people. All of this requires the highest quality of soundproofing and other privacy and safety measures. It works. So if a massive, open call centre can be turned into a warehouse, retail and medical, then a mall can be turned into whatever the owner decides they want to do with it, and as Jazzy said, the possibilities are endless.

 

[tango]

Turning a mall into something else IS repurposing the mall. Take a pair of jeans, cut off the legs and do some alterations and it is no longer a pair of jeans, but now a purse. The purse is repurposed jeans. Mall buildings do not have to still just be retail. The building can be renovated and repurposed into other uses. That's the point. Yes, renovations cost a lot of money. But so did building the mall to start with. It's probably paid off, so the owner can do what they want with it, whether it's another form of retail or something altogether different. Repurposed. Finding a new purpose for an old building that was a mall.

It does not need to be 80 of one thing. It used to be 80 stores. Now it can be 5 boutiques in one of the anchor stores, an indoor play area in another anchor store, and a whole string of smaller stores can be turned into a long string of offices and another section can be turned into a botanical garden under sun lamps with a walking path, and another section can be a small cafe, and there could be a medical lab in one section. Why wouldn't that work? People renovate all the time, and if a town needs the above things, then why not build it to suit the new tenants?

If a town needs those things, and it needs them in the location of the mall, maybe there is a case to be made. Chances are the structure of a mall isn't going to work as well for all those other things as it once did for retail so you end up with the questions of wide open public spaces and who maintains them and pays for them, and whether the occupants of the units have any interest in paying towards maintaining an area that might not offer them any benefit.

And who is going to pay for the renovations? Well, malls made the owners of the mall very rich. They likely don't owe anything by the time it dies out, so they take out equity loans and build to suit, and charge the new tenants rent. And yes, malls have been repurposed, can be renovated for almost anything, and walls can be built and knocked down. They can be insulated for privacy.

Presumably if the owners felt there was a demand for such things they would have gone ahead and done it. A lot of the time malls die because other shopping areas spring up somewhere else and draw the customers away. The ability to buy anything and everything online does little to help, especially when things are often so much cheaper online.

Insulating walls can be done, it's just a question of whether it can be done profitably and how much insulation is required. If you're in the business of letting retail space I don't think very many people expect absolute silence in a retail store. If the store isn't playing music there's the general noise of other customers, announcements, whatever. If you're renting space that might be an office but might be a gym or a recording studio you need to think things through more carefully. You don't want to be spending lots of money providing soundproofing for a space that ends up being a gym, but if you cut some costs and find you have a recording studio dealing with new thrash metal bands set up next to the meditation center you've got a problem brewing.

The building where I work used to be a massive call centre. Now there is a thrift shop on one side, a furniture warehouse on the other side, and I work in a medical facility in between the two. Our medical facility is a clinic where we have exam rooms, counselling rooms, OT, PT, homelessness outreach, and as we expand there will be pharm and obesity clinic. We also have a sacred space for Indigenous people. All of this requires the highest quality of soundproofing and other privacy and safety measures. It works. So if a massive, open call centre can be turned into a warehouse, retail and medical, then a mall can be turned into whatever the owner decides they want to do with it, and as Jazzy said, the possibilities are endless.

Possibilities are endless. Possibilities that make financial sense are maybe less so. And therein lies the problem - if there's a demand for something the chances are the market will provide it. If there's no money to be made the market won't provide it.

 

[ValleyGal]

The question is "what's a good use with dead malls." It does not say it can't or can be repurposed. A good use? I've listed a whole whack of them, along with Jazzy and Messy. "A good use" doesn't ask "a financially viable use."

If I was a mall owner, location would absolutely matter. If it's in an area that is still thriving, that's one thing and if it's in a "dead area" akin to the mall itself, then I'd just as soon abandon it and let some homeless people use the remnants for shelter. But if it's in a thriving area, I'd be inclined to find out - as I said earlier - what the community wants and needs, and do the renovations to make it happen.

Repurposing a SITE would entail removing the mall and any remnants thereof. Repurposing a MALL would require finding a new purpose for the MALL. That is, the building. Heck, if we are talking about repurposing the site? Rip out the mall and build a highrise with 800 units that are 600 sq ft each and sell them at $800,000 per unit and retire a very rich person. lol.