Predestination Romans 9 Potter and clay

[Messy]

I once found this guy from predestination station and I think it's a good explanation.

Romans 9:20-21 – Do unbelieving ethnic Israelites have a right to criticise God’s judgement? – The potter and the clay

This is part of a series of posts on Romans. Click here for the contents page. Having reached the centre of the structure of Romans 9:6-29, we are now ready to begin the return journey in this post…

predestinationstation.wordpress.com

 

[Messy]

he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills’

James 4 God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

Jeremiah 18:1-11:

“[1] The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD: [2] “Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will let you hear my words.” [3] So I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was working at his wheel. [4] And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter’s hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do. [5] Then the word of the LORD came to me: [6] “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the LORD. Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. [7] If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, [8] and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. [9] And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, [10] and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it. [11] Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: ‘Thus says the LORD, Behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds.’”

The potter was making a vessel, but the vessel ‘was spoiled in the potter’s hand’ (verse 4). The potter did not spoil it himself, but rather this was an action of the vessel. In response to this, the potter reworked it into another vessel.

 

[Lamb]

he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills’

James 4 God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

Jeremiah 18:1-11:




The potter was making a vessel, but the vessel ‘was spoiled in the potter’s hand’ (verse 4). The potter did not spoil it himself, but rather this was an action of the vessel. In response to this, the potter reworked it into another vessel.

As someone who has worked with clay before, it's not my will that makes it collapse!! LOL I want a really good, solid piece of pottery. I can get it to a point where it is molding to the shape I want and it doesn't always stay. The will to shape it is mine and the failure is not my doing as the potter.

 

[brightfame52]

Lol So does the Potter know how to make a vessel that cant collapse ? If it collapsed once what makes it so sure it wont collapse again ? Thats a reflection of the abilty of the potter.

 

[Messy]

Lol So does the Potter know how to make a vessel that cant collapse ? If it collapsed once what makes it so sure it wont collapse again ? Thats a reflection of the abilty of the potter.

If it's a lifeless clump of clay yes, but if it's clay with an own will and stands for the flesh, since Adam was made from dust or clay... God can't just form us like you form a lifeless thing. The universe is made perfect, lifeless things, but humans fell in sin, Cain could say no to sin, but didn't want to, flood of Noah. It makes sense what he says, cause I used to think: hey that's quite horrible. So God promises Abraham He'll bless his offspring and then He goes to the gentiles and we can only be grafted in, because they were cut off and yes he says they can be grafted in again and if you boast against em you can be cut off. But then it would mean He offered up the Israelites to save the Gentiles. That's bad. And now it makes sense. He wanted to use them tosave the world, but the majority rejected Him, so then He changed their use, just like God didnt create an evil devil because He wanted that, but He made a perfect angel, who rebelled, so now God uses him to test ppl. He uses everything for His purpose.

 

[brightfame52]

If it's a lifeless clump of clay yes, but if it's clay with an own will and stands for the flesh, since Adam was made from dust or clay... God can't just form us like you form a lifeless thing. The universe is made perfect, lifeless things, but humans fell in sin, Cain could say no to sin, but didn't want to, flood of Noah. It makes sense what he says, cause I used to think: hey that's quite horrible. So God promises Abraham He'll bless his offspring and then He goes to the gentiles and we can only be grafted in, because they were cut off and yes he says they can be grafted in again and if you boast against em you can be cut off. But then it would mean He offered up the Israelites to save the Gentiles. That's bad. And now it makes sense. He wanted to use them tosave the world, but the majority rejected Him, so then He changed their use, just like God didnt create an evil devil because He wanted that, but He made a perfect angel, who rebelled, so now God uses him to test ppl. He uses everything for His purpose.

Is Jeremiah speaking about Adam ?

 

[brightfame52]

messy

If it's a lifeless clump of clay yes, but if it's clay with an own will and stands for the flesh, since Adam was made from dust or clay... God can't just form us like you form a lifeless thing.

Adam was a lifeless piece of clay when made by God, he was dust of the earth.

 

[Messy]

messy



Adam was a lifeless piece of clay when made by God, he was dust of the earth.

Before He breathed in him yes, but that was only his body. He became a living soul.

 

[Messy]

Romans 11

elect has nothing to do with saved gentiles here:

What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”
9 And David says:

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”

Israel’s Rejection Not Final​

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their [b]fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their [c]fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and [d]fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, [e]goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[brightfame52]

Before He breathed in him yes, but that was only his body. He became a living soul.

He breathed into him after he made him from clay So whats your point ? How does this tie into God created some people for hell and destruction, vessels of wrath ? Bible said God made the wicked for the day of their destruction Prov 16:4

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Did not God know what He was doing when He created folk ? Did He have any purpose ?

 

[brightfame52]

Romans 11

elect has nothing to do with saved gentiles here:

What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”
9 And David says:

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”

Israel’s Rejection Not Final​

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their [b]fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their [c]fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and [d]fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, [e]goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

I dont think you know what you want to discuss. Is this thread suppose to be about National Israel ?

 

[Messy]

He breathed into him after he made him from clay So whats your point ? How does this tie into God created some people for hell and destruction, vessels of wrath ? Bible said God made the wicked for the day of their destruction Prov 16:4

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Did not God know what He was doing when He created folk ? Did He have any purpose ?

I'll look up what that text means, but God is good and good cannot create evil. The other text I create evil doesnt mean He created an evil person or devil, but that He creates disaster to get rid of the evil.

 

[Messy]

I dont think you know what you want to discuss. Is this thread suppose to be about National Israel ?

No about predestination. Are the elect the ones God has foreknown from eternity or is it the group from Israel that was saved or does it mean something else in different places.

 

[Messy]

He breathed into him after he made him from clay So whats your point ? How does this tie into God created some people for hell and destruction, vessels of wrath ? Bible said God made the wicked for the day of their destruction Prov 16:4

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Did not God know what He was doing when He created folk ? Did He have any purpose ?

Proverbs 16:4 – “The LORD has made everything for its purpose..."

Like a good engineer, God made everything for a purpose. Sometimes the purpose is easy to figure out. The purpose of other things take careful study and time to figure out. Some things, God tells us, we will never know because His ways are higher than our ways (Isaiah 55:9), and some of His...

www.geneva.edu

First, God uses the wicked to punish His people’s sin, calling Assyria the rod of His anger (Isaiah 10), and using Babylon for the same purpose (Habbakkuk). Second, the Lord also uses the wicked to show His justice and power when the time comes to call them to account. God said to Pharaoh, king of Egypt, “But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show my power in you (Exodus 9:16).” God makes even the wrath of man to praise Him (Psalm 67:10).

But that does not mean that God actively created an evil pharao, cause that's impossible. That would make God the author of evil, but satan is the author of evil. How can these tares be here? Didn't you sow good seed? An enemy did that. Pharao hardened his heart. God foreknew of course and knew how he was. Then he sinned against the Spirit when God showed His power and refused to repent and then, just like the pharisees who hardened their heart, seared conscience, then He gives em over to satan, cause they've gone too far. They made themselves wicked by their choices, try to go against God, but God just uses them for another purpose.

 

[brightfame52]

I'll look up what that text means, but God is good and good cannot create evil. The other text I create evil doesnt mean He created an evil person or devil, but that He creates disaster to get rid of the evil.

Doesnt that verse say God created or made the wicked ?

 

[brightfame52]

No about predestination. Are the elect the ones God has foreknown from eternity or is it the group from Israel that was saved or does it mean something else in different places.

God has predestinated all whom He chose in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4-5

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Now some of these people were jews from israel, but not all of them, its people from all races and walks of life and different generations since the beginning of the world. Race doesnt play a factor nor what country you from.

 

[brightfame52]

Proverbs 16:4 – “The LORD has made everything for its purpose..."

Like a good engineer, God made everything for a purpose. Sometimes the purpose is easy to figure out. The purpose of other things take careful study and time to figure out. Some things, God tells us, we will never know because His ways are higher than our ways (Isaiah 55:9), and some of His...

www.geneva.edu

First, God uses the wicked to punish His people’s sin, calling Assyria the rod of His anger (Isaiah 10), and using Babylon for the same purpose (Habbakkuk). Second, the Lord also uses the wicked to show His justice and power when the time comes to call them to account. God said to Pharaoh, king of Egypt, “But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show my power in you (Exodus 9:16).” God makes even the wrath of man to praise Him (Psalm 67:10).

But that does not mean that God actively created an evil pharao, cause that's impossible. That would make God the author of evil, but satan is the author of evil. How can these tares be here? Didn't you sow good seed? An enemy did that. Pharao hardened his heart. God foreknew of course and knew how he was. Then he sinned against the Spirit when God showed His power and refused to repent and then, just like the pharisees who hardened their heart, seared conscience, then He gives em over to satan, cause they've gone too far. They made themselves wicked by their choices, try to go against God, but God just uses them for another purpose.

God made the wicked, and it wasnt for salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

Before He breathed in him yes, but that was only his body. He became a living soul.

God created Adam for Jesus Christ,, so Adam must and had to sin, it was Gods Purpose.

 

[Messy]

Doesnt that verse say God created or made the wicked ?

Proverbs 16:4—Does God make people to be doomed?

Is there a Bible contradiction in Proverbs 16:4? Here’s the solution from When Critics Ask by Geisler and Howe; used by permission.

defendinginerrancy.com

On the one hand, the Bible speaks of human beings as having free choice (Matt. 23:37; 2 Peter 3:9) and being responsible for their own destiny (cf. Ezek. 18:20; John 3:36). On the other hand, Solomon declares here that “the Lord made ... even the wicked for the day of doom.” Indeed, Paul speaks of some people being “vessels of wrath” (Rom. 9:22). How can we justify God making people in order to destroy them?

God does not create people in order to destroy them. God loves “the world” (John 3:16), and Christ died “for the whole world” (1 John 2:2). Indeed, Christ’s blood “bought” even those who deny Him (2 Peter 2:1). And God “is not willing that any should perish” (2 Peter 3:9). There is a hell, but it was not prepared for human beings. Jesus said it was “prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41).

The word “made” (asah) has broad usage in Hebrew. It can mean “appoint” or “institute” or even “administer.” God is in sovereign control of the entire universe. Even when humans intend something for evil, God can mean it for good (Gen. 50:20). In this sense, “Surely the wrath of man shall praise You” (Ps. 76:10). For “in all things God works for the good” (Rom. 8:28, niv). So even the “day of doom” is “for” God in the sense that He is in control of it and it will ultimately redound to His glory. For God’s love is magnified in heaven, and His justice is manifest in hell.

Of course, it is not God’s directive will that anyone be judged, but in His sovereign will He has appointed (“made”) that even judgment on sin will magnify Him. Nonetheless, God “desires all men come to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:4). Even the “vessels of wrath” were only “prepared for destruction” (Rom. 9:22) because they refused to repent, since God patiently “endured [them] with much longsuffering,” waiting for them to repent (cf. 2 Peter 3:9).

In brief, God’s prescriptive will is that all be saved. His permissive will is that some be lost (those who refuse to repent). And God’s providential will is that He will bring ultimate good, even out of evil. In this sense, all things are made for (i.e., appointed by) Him.


2 Timothy 2
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, [h]sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

 

[Messy]

God created Adam for Jesus Christ,, so Adam must and had to sin, it was Gods Purpose.

Then He would have said: Go sin Adam. Eat from that forbidden tree. God does not lie.

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you[f] shall surely die.”

God only knew he would sin and had a salvation plan before the foundation of the earth.