Collective Guilt

[MoreCoffee]

How do you feel about the notion of collective guilt?

For example if you are in a country that did something bad recently should you feel guilty?

Or if you are in a denomination that has recently been implicated in something bad, sex abuse comes to mind, and coverups, should you feel guilty and should you dissociate from it?

It's a current news item in the USA, I believe, that there's a scandal in the Maryland Catholic Diocese. Other churches and secular organisations have also had scandals in recent times. Would you feel guilty? Would you dissociate?

If not why not?

 

[Lamb]

I'm not guilty for what other people have decided, even though I live in the area. I remember people saying that when something went wrong and Trump was President, that it's the Republican's fault because Trump was President. That made absolutely no sense to me.

 

[tango]

It's a stupid idea. Where does it stop? I am a man. Am I somehow responsible for sex crimes committed by other men? Am I responsible for violence committed by other men?

Now we have equally stupid ideas that as a white man I somehow share responsibility for things done before I was even born.

 

[Albion]

How do you feel about the notion of collective guilt?

For example if you are in a country that did something bad recently should you feel guilty?

No. However, I can see a case being made that every citizen ought to do something towards countering that problem, rather than merely accepting it with regret.

Or if you are in a denomination that has recently been implicated in something bad, sex abuse comes to mind, and coverups, should you feel guilty and should you dissociate from it?

Possibly. After all, this question differs from the question about a country that did something bad. In at least two ways.

First, we were born into a particular country and have no easy way of changing that. Second, doing so would be a kind of personal escapism, not really a testimony to one's ethical convictions, etc.

But when it comes to churches/denominations, those are voluntary associations and, also, it's a matter of conscience if we continue to support, with membership, attendance, and our financial contributions the denomination that has gotten into a seriously immoral rut. Our own religion (Christianity) calls upon us to separate from such situations.

It's a current news item in the USA, I believe, that there's a scandal in the Maryland Catholic Diocese. Other churches and secular organisations have also had scandals in recent times. Would you feel guilty? Would you dissociate?

If not why not?

It would be a difficult choice, but the church you named has not merely experienced this scandal. The scandal is widespread within that church and that has been going on for many years. Members and clergy have tried to claim that it was just a few bad apples and pointed to what has happened in other denominations (just as you did yourself).

But no other denomination--certainly no other denomination of note--has been so deeply involved with this scandal, or for as long. And, the Catholic Church covered it up, immorally and illegally, right on up to the highest levels in the church.

As a result, a good case could be made for any member choosing to leave that church body.

 

[Messy]

How do you feel about the notion of collective guilt?

For example if you are in a country that did something bad recently should you feel guilty?

Or if you are in a denomination that has recently been implicated in something bad, sex abuse comes to mind, and coverups, should you feel guilty and should you dissociate from it?

It's a current news item in the USA, I believe, that there's a scandal in the Maryland Catholic Diocese. Other churches and secular organisations have also had scandals in recent times. Would you feel guilty? Would you dissociate?

If not why not?

If a church lets wolves in and I know and am a part of that church, I leave. I absolutely don't feel sorry for what some wolf did. With church I mean one group of ppl going to one buiding. If whoever from the same franchise does something wrong, I have nothing to do with that anyway. Wouldn't mean I leave the evangelical church altogether, because whoever did whatever. But for example no way I would go to a church that affiliates with that guy who gravesucks. The thing about collective guilt, like Daniel prayed, Lord we have sinned, we always had to pray that when God had said that we should pray every morning as a church and a lot refused and then the few that did show up had to ask forgiveness for us, which irritated me and I wondered how Daniel could do that.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If a church lets wolves in and I know and am a part of that church, I leave. I absolutely don't feel sorry for what some wolf did. With church I mean one group of ppl going to one buiding. If whoever from the same franchise does something wrong, I have nothing to do with that anyway. Wouldn't mean I leave the evangelical church altogether, because whoever did whatever. But for example no way I would go to a church that affiliates with that guy who gravesucks. The thing about collective guilt, like Daniel prayed, Lord we have sinned, we always had to pray that when God had said that we should pray every morning as a church and a lot refused and then the few that did show up had to ask forgiveness for us, which irritated me and I wondered how Daniel could do that.

But whatever church you go to, it is all part of the one holy catholic and apostolic church is it not? But if you say that each individual church carried its own guilt and that no others carry it too, then how can each individual church be part of the one body of Christ? Do you see the body as invisible, insofar as it is individuals apart from their churches?

 

[Messy]

But whatever church you go to, it is all part of the one holy catholic and apostolic church is it not? But if you say that each individual church carried its own guilt and that no others carry it too, then how can each individual church be part of the one body of Christ? Do you see the body as invisible, insofar as it is individuals apart from their churches?

It is one church, but the one church is all the real believers, wherever they go to. But if one local church has a bad leader or no pastor and no protection from wolves, bye bye, I'm gone. A church with another pastor, who does kick the wolf out, same franchise or whatever other franchise, there I can go.

 

[Albion]

It is one church, but the one church is all the real believers, wherever they go to. But if one local church has a bad leader or no pastor and no protection from wolves, bye bye, I'm gone. A church with another pastor, who does kick the wolf out, same franchise or whatever other franchise, there I can go.

We all have to decide for ourselves on the matter of a valid church body. Hopefully, no one would say that if one church has gone onto the rocks, so to speak, that just any other one would suffice. Of course not. Doctrine would have to be acceptable, and so on.

But still, there can be alternatives, so the answer would be to check into the possible alternatives if the church that a person has long belonged to is no longer one that the person can, in good conscience, continue to affirm. This is the situation that literally millions of Americans have faced--and acted upon--in recent years.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It is one church, but the one church is all the real believers, wherever they go to. But if one local church has a bad leader or no pastor and no protection from wolves, bye bye, I'm gone. A church with another pastor, who does kick the wolf out, same franchise or whatever other franchise, there I can go.

Some among the elect of God, that is to say those who are to be saved, and are saved, and have always been saved, are sinners, every one it seems or at least nearly every one, some perhaps murders, some perhaps child molesters, some commit other crimes, and some no crime but other sins such as pride, greed, indifference, judgement of others. These are guilty sins in this world, do you share that guilt, is your own sin guilty too, if so how does collective guilt operate with such things? Or is forgiveness greater than sin? What do you think?

 

[Messy]

Some among the elect of God, that is to say those who are to be saved, and are saved, and have always been saved, are sinners, every one it seems or at least nearly every one, some perhaps murders, some perhaps child molesters, some commit other crimes, and some no crime but other sins such as pride, greed, indifference, judgement of others. These are guilty sins in this world, do you share that guilt, is your own sin guilty too, if so how does collective guilt operate with such things? Or is forgiveness greater than sin? What do you think?

The sin is gone when you ask forgiveness and repent. Make sure you're still in the faith. Let God tell you if you live in sin and change and if you can't, get help. A collective sin is not praying enough, being lukewarm, lazy. In Revelation you see He speaks to the angels of the churches. You're blind, lukewarm, it's said to that whole church, collective, but also that there are those in that church who haven't done that. Murderers and child molestors and rapists, that former serial killer is so sweet now, Son of Sam. He got saved in jail. If they can be saved, great, but nowadays the rapist is the poor sweet victim and the victim has to shut up and be more forgiving and the leaders know, yet simply let someone live in blatant sin in their church. Those have to be kicked out of the church if they don't want to repent, but if they don't do that it's no wonder there's child abuse or rape in that church, since they just let them be and don't protect the sheep. I was in one church with a sociopath creep. I warned the elder. I should be more forgiving lol. Mkay bye. So I went to another church, cause I knew he hated that pastor, cause he kicked him out of his church.

 

[Messy]

There's a difference between someone who sins and can't stop sinning, but wants to and someone who doesn't want to stop sinning. In one church I went to decades ago was a man who regularly raped his daughter and my ex went to him. He told him and he kicked some demons out of him. The daughter was 17 or so. She forgave him. It was all ssh ssh. I only know cause my ex told me. I don't think anyone else from that church knew it. That man repented. The man living with his father's wife was kicked out by Paul, so he could get saved. First you warn and if they don't listen, kick em out. If you let such ppl be, who don't want to repent, I think the leader has no business whatsoever leading people and you should leave such a church.

 

[MoreCoffee]

There's a difference between someone who sins and can't stop sinning, but wants to and someone who doesn't want to stop sinning. In one church I went to decades ago was a man who regularly raped his daughter and my ex went to him. He told him and he kicked some demons out of him. The daughter was 17 or so. She forgave him. It was all ssh ssh. I only know cause my ex told me. I don't think anyone else from that church knew it. That man repented. The man living with his father's wife was kicked out by Paul, so he could get saved. First you warn and if they don't listen, kick em out. If you let such ppl be, who don't want to repent, I think the leader has no business whatsoever leading people and you should leave such a church.

It shouldn't be hushed up, ever, and that is one of the worst things about how churches handle sins and crimes. Secrecy is a bad thing, we, in the pews, need to start saying so very loudly so that it can change.

 

[Messy]

It shouldn't be hushed up, ever, and that is one of the worst things about how churches handle sins and crimes. Secrecy is a bad thing, we, in the pews, need to start saying so very loudly so that it can change.

But otherwise they don't ask for help. I went to a couple from a church in Canada once for counselling and had to fill in a whole list with questions, but it said that if you told them about illegal stuff that had happened, they were obliged to tell the police. In the case of that daughter, she was over 16. I'd say it's her choice to either forgive him or go to the police. You're not gonna tell counsellors if it still bothers you, yet you have forgiven the person and don't want anyone to know. Joseph didn't tell his dad that his brothers had tried to kill him. But yes if it's a kid or someone who does want the police involved, they should do that.

 

[MoreCoffee]

But otherwise they don't ask for help. I went to a couple from a church in Canada once for counselling and had to fill in a whole list with questions, but it said that if you told them about illegal stuff that had happened, they were obliged to tell the police. In the case of that daughter, she was over 16. I'd say it's her choice to either forgive him or go to the police. You're not gonna tell counsellors if it still bothers you, yet you have forgiven the person and don't want anyone to know. Joseph didn't tell his dad that his brothers had tried to kill him. But yes if it's a kid or someone who does want the police involved, they should do that.

Personal decisions, such as the ones you've mentioned, usually ought to be respected but in cases where a crime has been committed one cannot keep silent. When a silence is agreed the next time a similar crime occurs the silence keepers cannot have kept silence without some degree of culpability affixing itself to them.