REDEMPTION/ATONEMENT: US vs THEM (the L of TULIP)

[Albion]

Seems to me, this issue is fairly a moot one as even though the Scriptures say 'all' in some places Jesus' death is limited to those who believe; and who are those who believe? Those to whom the Son reveals His Father to.

Matthew 11:27 NKJV
All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

And no man comes to the Father except through Jesus...

Yes, but this doesn't change anything. The POV of the radical Calvinists is that the Savior did what he did for only a select few. You have pointed out that only those who believe are saved, as though these two ideas essentially add up to the same thing. They do not.

If and when everyone is made eligible for eternal life through the sacrifice of the Cross, some will come to Jesus and others will not. Some will never even hear of the Bible or Jesus. But none of these has been deliberately EXCLUDED from the Atonement, and this is what the posters on that side of the issue have been trying to get across. They aren't arguing for universal salvation as if that is the opposite of what the Limited Atonement people believe in.

 

[Josiah]

the Scriptures say 'all' in some places

@prism

Actually in several places. Flat-out, verbatim, word-for-word. And NEVER (not once, not anywhere) does Scripture state, "No, Jesus did not die for all but ONLY for some few."

Jesus' death is limited to those who believe

@prism


The BENEFIT of such is limited to those with faith (a point no one has ever disputed and an issue entirely related to the "L" of TULIP), but His death is not limited to those who believe, you are incorrect there. Nowhere does Scripture state, "Jesus died ONLY for those who eventually will have faith."

You might be making the same mistake as these few radical, latter-day Calvinists who invented the "L" dogma did: rendering faith irrelevant and moot. No one is justified SOLELY because Christ died for them (if that were true, all would be justified - as the Calvinists who invented universalism insisted), but essential is not only the Cross but also faith. It's not either/or, it's both/and. Faith without the Cross does not lead to personal justification, the Cross without faith does not lead to personal justified. BOTH are needed.

The reason some are not personally justified is NOT that the Bible is wrong about Jesus dying for all but rather because the Bible is right about faith not being in all.

Seems to me, this issue is fairly a moot

Sadly, no.

The only reason we know that Jesus died for ME (and you, too) is that the Bible states (often, verbatim) that He died for all people, for everyone... and therefore, me (and you). And everyone to whom we may be presenting the Gospel. This is an OBJECTIVE reality that points to an OBJECTIVE reality - The Cross and Resurrection.

IF Jesus died only for some few (maybe 1% to possibly 20%) then He probably did NOT die for you or me (odds are against it, anyway). The problem is: nowhere does the Bible list the names of those for whom Jesus died, there's nothing objective and sure about whom He died for. We are left with just our own feelings and hopes and dreams (and the odds that it's unlikely that He died for me). These radical Calvinists will ultimately insist we cannot know until we die and are met by either the Devil or Jesus because, well, God didn't list the names. We can't know if our neighbor is one of those few and thus are we being honest when we present the Gospel to them since odds are the Gospel is not for them? How can we know? How can they know? Nothing solid, nothing objective. Just our personal feelings.

Now, some will TRY to wiggle out of this by saying our FAITH confirms it. But how do we know if our neighbor has faith so that we can evangelize them? How do we know if OUR faith is from God or something we generated, how do we know that it's apprehending something that's for me and not a phantom? Thus the uber-Calvinist obsession that faith must be GENUINE (and there's no way to know if it is), the issue not being the object of faith but the GENUINESS of faith. As even my very Calvinists relatives express, this "L" is a "terror of the conscience" since there's no way to know if Jesus died for me, and it puts certainly not in Jesus but in how GENUINE my faith is (with no way to gauge that).

When taking Scriptures as a whole, it becomes clear that at least the benefits of the atonement are limited.

No one disputes that. That's NOT the issue at hand. The "L" of TULIP that is the issue here does NOT teach that the death of Jesus BENEFITS only some, it's that Jesus DIED for only some unknown, unnamed few. It's easy to defend a view if you change the view to something entirely different than the one under discussion.




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[Messy]

Yes, but this doesn't change anything. The POV of the radical Calvinists is that the Savior did what he did for only a select few. You have pointed out that only those who believe are saved, as though these two ideas essentially add up to the same thing. They do not.

If and when everyone is made eligible for eternal life through the sacrifice of the Cross, some will come to Jesus and others will not. Some will never even hear of the Bible or Jesus. But none of these has been deliberately EXCLUDED from the Atonement, and this is what the posters on that side of the issue have been trying to get across. They aren't arguing for universal salvation as if that is the opposite of what the Limited Atonement people believe in.

They say that God does what He wants. If someone didn't get saved, He didn't want it. Now in the case of pharao, the pharisees and the worst false teachers I agree and even believe double predestination, because He knew they would be so wicked.

2 Petrus 2:17–18

17 pThese are wells without water, 7clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness 8forever.

But for normal ppl, it would be nice if you could put the blame on God and not feel guilty, but I'm afraid that ppl can get lost because others sin.

Ezekiel 33:7-9
“Now as for you, son of man, I have appointed you a watchman for the house of Israel; so you will hear a message from My mouth and give them warning from Me. When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require from your hand. But if you on your part warn a wicked man to turn from his way and he does not turn from his way, he will die in his iniquity, but you have delivered your life.

And another thing, how can you pray for ppl to get saved in faith,do what 1 Timothy says, when you don't know if God even wants them to get saved? James says don't pray for those who sin unto death, so I wouldn't pray for the antichrist to get saved, but for the rest I believe God wants to save everyone. A preacher in a church I went to was worried about his own brother. Maybe God had not elected him. So I gave him a book from Thomas Lee, how to pray for the lost.

 

[Albion]

They say that God does what He wants. If someone didn't get saved, He didn't want it. Now in the case of pharao, the pharisees and the worst false teachers I agree and even believe double predestination, because He knew they would be so wicked.

I don't believe that Pharoah was saved, or the Pharisees either. That's because none of them believed in the Lord (as we all know is the case).

So what's the point? Is it that these people were too evil to be saved? If so, most or all of the rest of us are too evil as well; it's just a matter of degree.

It is certain that ANY failing, anything done by any of us that falls short of perfection, of God's standards that is to say, merits nothing other than eternal estrangement from God.

The exception to that is Faith in the Lord and his saving acts. WIthout that, no one's salvation would be or have been possible.

 

[Messy]

I don't believe that Pharoah was saved, or the Pharisees either. That's because none of them believed in the Lord (as we all know is the case).

So what's the point? Is it that these people were too evil to be saved? If so, most or all of the rest of us are too evil as well; it's just a matter of degree.

It is certain that ANY failing, anything done by any of us that falls short of perfection, of God's standards that is to say, merits nothing other than eternal estrangement from God.

The exception to that is Faith in the Lord and his saving acts. WIthout that, no one's salvation would be or have been possible.

No we weren't too evil. I think there's a difference. Paul got saved, although he killed christians, because he did it in ignorance. A pharisee who blasphemed the Spirit would not have forgiveness in eternity. They had gone too far. Someone said pharao also sinned against the Spirit, which explains Romans 9.

John 12:37-50​

37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him,
38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.

He didnt want them to see, because they went too far.

 

[Albion]

No we weren't too evil. I think there's a difference. Paul got saved, although he killed christians, because he did it in ignorance. A pharisee who blasphemed the Spirit would not have forgiveness in eternity. They had gone too far. Someone said pharao also sinned against the Spirit, which explains Romans 9.

I disagree. And this is a point that escapes many serious believers. We are part of a fallen race and we have a fallen nature. We are born in sin.

We are reconciled to God, who is perfect, only because of the sacrifice of the Son of God on the Cross that can be applied to us. Even the best of us is otherwise imperfect and unworthy, whether it's that we are murderers or that we once stole an apple from a vendor.

 

[Messy]

I disagree. And this is a point that escapes many serious believers. We are part of a fallen race and we have a fallen nature. We are born in sin.

We are reconciled to God, who is perfect, only because of the sacrifice of the Son of God on the Cross that can be applied to us. Even the best of us is otherwise imperfect and unworthy, whether it's that we are murderers or that we once stole an apple from a vendor.

This is why one gets saved when he hears the Word and the other doesn't. Not everyone has an equally bad or hard heart:
Matthew 13
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

Hebrews 3
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”

 

[prism]

Yes, but this doesn't change anything. The POV of the radical Calvinists is that the Savior did what he did for only a select few. You have pointed out that only those who believe are saved, as though these two ideas essentially add up to the same thing. They do not.

If and when everyone is made eligible for eternal life through the sacrifice of the Cross, some will come to Jesus and others will not. Some will never even hear of the Bible or Jesus. But none of these has been deliberately EXCLUDED from the Atonement, and this is what the posters on that side of the issue have been trying to get across. They aren't arguing for universal salvation as if that is the opposite of what the Limited Atonement people believe in.

I believe I pointed out that those who believe, believe because it was revealed to them.
Let me quote Mt 11:27 from the KJV and Legacy Standard in case you missed it from the NKJV...

Matthew 11:27 KJV
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Or the Legacy Standard...

Matthew 11:27 LSB
All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

 

[prism]

No one disputes that. That's NOT the issue at hand. The "L" of TULIP that is the issue here does NOT teach that the death of Jesus BENEFITS only some, it's that Jesus DIED for only some unknown, unnamed few. It's easy to defend a view if you change the view to something entirely different than the one under discussion.

The issue at hand is that Jesus died for those whom He predestined, chose, revealed, justified and glorified...and unless you claim that is everyone or bring in 'free will', then the atonement is Limited.

 

[Albion]

This is why one gets saved when he hears the Word and the other doesn't. Not everyone has an equally bad or hard heart:

We'd have to agree on that point, but it isn't really the point.

Some are more open to hearing, while others are less so. That much I'd agree to. However, that's not addressing the gravity of the sins that either of them is guilty of.

Any falling short of God's standards is sin, and realizing that fact should impress all Christians of the need of mankind for a Savior.

Also, it should make us realize that it's not a matter of which sinner is 'better' (or worse) than the next person, since none of us is worthy of God's mercy and yet he is loving enough to offer it to all.

 

[prism]

Interesting, for our resident Anglican, in the Articles of Religion (article 17), the first paragraph states...

XVII. OF PREDESTINATION AND ELECTION

PREDESTINATION to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour.

I don't see how one can separate 'those whom He has chosen out of mankind' from limited atonement (delivering from curse and damnation).

 

[Albion]

Interesting, for our resident Anglican, in the Articles of Religion (article 17), the first paragraph states...

XVII. OF PREDESTINATION AND ELECTION

PREDESTINATION to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour.

I don't see how one can separate 'those whom He has chosen out of mankind' from limited atonement (delivering from curse and damnation).

If you were an Anglican yourself, you'd probably have understood what that article is saying and what it is not saying. It's not what you think.

 

[prism]

If you were an Anglican yourself, you'd probably have understood what that article is saying and what it is not saying. It's not what you think.

That reminds me of when Westerners quote the Koran; they are told by Muslims they need to understand Arabic to truly understand the Koran.

I am a born again Christian and I understand biblical terms like 'predestination', 'election', 'chosen', 'mankind' etc. I hope the Articles of Faith aren't using different meanings to those same terms.

 

[Josiah]

The issue at hand is that Jesus died for those whom He predestined, chose, revealed, justified and glorified...

@prism


Those few radical, latter-day Calvinists invented the new dogma that Jesus died ONLY for SOME few. And that is the issue of this thread. You've attempted to change the subject to whether the death of Jesus is effectual for all (regardless of faith) but that's not the issue.

The Bible repeatedly, verbatim, flat-out STATES that Jesus died for all, for everyone. It's impossible to deny this. And it NEVER, not once, states that Jesus died ONLY for SOME few. It's impossible to deny that.

For 1600 years, Christians believed the Word of God. Even declared this dogma at the Ecumenical Council of Orange. But after Calvin, some radicals afraid that this biblical proclamation and ecumenical belief might boaster the Arminianists declared this biblical teaching to be wrong. VERY few followed them; indeed it's hard to flat out contradict a teaching SO clear in the Bible and so cherished by Christianity for over 1600 years.




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[Messy]

Interesting, for our resident Anglican, in the Articles of Religion (article 17), the first paragraph states...

XVII. OF PREDESTINATION AND ELECTION

PREDESTINATION to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour.

I don't see how one can separate 'those whom He has chosen out of mankind' from limited atonement (delivering from curse and damnation).

He died for His bride, but also for everyone, cause it was just sin in general condemned in the flesh. The yetzer hara died on the cross I think, like the snake on the pole and it only benefits those who believe, but He did die for all, cause some false teachers were twice dead.

 

[Josiah]

Interesting, for our resident Anglican, in the Articles of Religion (article 17), the first paragraph states...

XVII. OF PREDESTINATION AND ELECTION

PREDESTINATION to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour.

I don't see how one can separate 'those whom He has chosen out of mankind' from limited atonement (delivering from curse and damnation).

NOWHERE does this article of Anglicanism state that Jesus did NOT die for all but rather ONLY, exclusively, solely for some unknown few. Anglicanism REPUDIATES the "L" of TULIP, the issue of this thread.

Predestination (or "Election") refers to the granting of faith, not the death of Jesus. The Bible, Christianity and Anglicanism all affirm that TWO things are needed for "everlasting salvation" (personal justification): The Cross AND Faith. While Christ died for all, faith is not given to all therefore not all have "everlasting salvation." I'm sincerely at a loss to understand why this is incomprehensible to you, it's perfectly clear to every Christian known to me.

Again, the reality that not all have "everlasting salvation" the reality that not all are "chosen in Christ" is NOT that the Bible is wrong when it states that Jesus died for all but because the Bible is right when it states that not all are given faith. I sincerely can't understand why this so completely alludes you. And don't try to change the topic to something no one disputes, whether the death of Christ is EFFECTUAL for all, regardless of faith. That's not the issue.




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[prism]

@prism


Those few radical, latter-day Calvinists invented the new dogma that Jesus died ONLY for SOME few. And that is the issue of this thread. You've attempted to change the subject to whether the death of Jesus is effectual for all (regardless of faith) but that's not the issue.

The Bible repeatedly, verbatim, flat-out STATES that Jesus died for all, for everyone. It's impossible to deny this. And it NEVER, not once, states that Jesus died ONLY for SOME few. It's impossible to deny that.

For 1600 years, Christians believed the Word of God. Even declared this dogma at the Ecumenical Council of Orange. But after Calvin, some radicals afraid that this biblical proclamation and ecumenical belief might boaster the Arminianists declared this biblical teaching to be wrong. VERY few followed them; indeed it's hard to flat out contradict a teaching SO clear in the Bible and so cherished by Christianity for over 1600 years.




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Josiah, those so called 'radical Calvinists' you keep harping on, get their cue from the Westminster Confession of Faith chapters #9 and #10. How would you like others to call you a radical Lutheran for holding to all the Book of Concord and not just the Augsburg Confession?

Nowhere does it say a few or many? Try...

Matthew 20:28 NKJV
just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

Ecumenical? Hardly, and it's little wonder the Arminians and semi Pelagians detest it... it cuts to the pride of man.

 

[prism]

He died for His bride, but also for everyone, cause it was just sin in general condemned in the flesh. The yetzer hara died on the cross I think, like the snake on the pole and it only benefits those who believe, but He did die for all, cause some false teachers were twice dead.

It He died for His bride as well as everyone, why aren't all saved?

 

[prism]

@Josiah stated, "While Christ died for all, faith is not given to all therefore not all have "everlasting salvation." I'm sincerely at a loss to understand why this is incomprehensible to you,"

Since faith is not given to all, who else but for those Christ died for, is faith given?

 

[Messy]

It He died for His bride as well as everyone, why aren't all saved?

Because not all believe and accept His offer. 1 Timothy says pray for all man, cause God wants everyone saved, yet not everyone is saved.