REDEMPTION/ATONEMENT: US vs THEM (the L of TULIP)

[prism]

Where are the verses that reject the above and state instead that Jesus died ONLY for some subgroup of humans, NOT for all?

I just gave two (Mt 26:28 and Mark 14:24) where it says ‘many’. Last I checked ‘many’ is not ‘all’.
So here we sit with many/all, all/many.

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mark 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

Best to look at other verses to break the log jam...

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

 

[Albion]

Notice, Scripture says "all" ...

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all.

1 Timothy 2:6 "Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all.

There are more.

Where are the verses that reject the above and state instead that Jesus died ONLY for some subgroup of humans, NOT for all?





Of course, none of these state that Jesus did not die for all (as the Bible repeatedly, literally, verbatim, flat-out states) but rather, instead, ONLY for some SUBGROUP of humanity.

You seem to think that "many" mandates ONLY some few; it does not. There are many people living on Earth today, that does not mean that most people are not living on Earth now, "many" mandating that ONLY SOME SMALL SUBGROUP of humans on earth are living on earth. .

Where this discussion has "landed" all of us seems to be this--

1. Believers in Limited Atonement cite some verses in which the word "many" appears...and they choose to interpret "many" to mean "some." However, the word "many" by definition means an unlimited number.

2. And, at the same time, they steadfastly refuse to address the numerous verses (that have been presented to them repeatedly) in which the number of persons is given as "all."

So long as that's the situation, there wouldn't seem to be any other information that would help.

 

[brightfame52]

Where this discussion has "landed" all of us seems to be this--

1. Believers in Limited Atonement cite some verses in which the word "many" appears...and they choose to interpret "many" to mean "some." However, the word "many" by definition means an unlimited number.

2. And, at the same time, they steadfastly refuse to address the numerous verses (that have been presented to them repeatedly) in which the number of persons is given as "all."

So long as that's the situation, there wouldn't seem to be any other information that would help.

Simple All stands for all the Sheep! That is who Christ specifically said He died for Jn 10:11,15 beyond that is only speculation!

 

[Albion]

Simple All stands for all the Sheep!

But the verses don't say that. As a result, we once again are dealing with Calvinists applying a meaning that they choose to apply.

You might just as well insist that "all" stands for all Apostles, all Hebrews, or all people who get baptized. But that aside, how do you rationalize making "the whole world" and "for everyone" as used in other verses mean nobody except "all the Sheep??"

 

[brightfame52]

But the verses don't say that. As a result, we once again are dealing with Calvinists applying a meaning that they choose to apply.

You might just as well insist that "all" stands for all Apostles, all Hebrews, or all people who get baptized. But that aside, how do you rationalize making "the whole world" and "for everyone" as used in other verses mean nobody except "all the Sheep??"

It means that.

 

[Josiah]

I just gave two (Mt 26:28 and Mark 14:24) where it says ‘many’. Last I checked ‘many’ is not ‘all’.
So here we sit with many/all, all/many.

@prism Neither of those states that Jesus died for ONLY some few and not for all (is that why you didn't quote the verses)?

We have many that specifically, verbatim, literally, flat-out STATE that He died for "ALL." And none that state "no, that's not right, Jesus died for ONLY ____________."


Here's what God literally, flat-out, verbatim, in black-and-white, repeatedly states:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all.

1 Timothy 2:6 "Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all.

There are more.

Friend, you seem to think that "many" mandates ONLY some few; it does not. "Many" does not mean "only a few" or "not all." There are many people living on Earth today, that does not mean that most people are not living on Earth now, or that most on Earth are not alive. "Many" here does not mandate that ONLY SOME SMALL SUBGROUP of humans on earth are living on earth.

Best to look at other verses to break the log jam...

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Friend, you are confusing two entirely different issues...

This thread is not about who is and is not saved (personal justification); everyone (except for a few Calvinists) do NOT believe that all are saved (although the word "many" can can used for them, although also "only a few" if we consider the percentage rather than the number). God "REVEALS" the saving work of Christ to only some - no debate there. But that does not mean that ergo He died for only those. That's not only ENTIRELY unbiblical (actually, it FLATLY contradicts Scripture) but it's illogical, too.

Don't all into a HERESY. One that (sadly) some radical Calvinists do. The HERESY that faith is irrelevant and functionally moot. The HERESY that if Jesus died for you, ergo you have personal justification regardless of whether you have faith. The HERESY of replacing John 3:16 with "For God so loved just a tiny few people (and you won't we told which) that He died just for them, so those few (who won't be identified) are saved whether they have faith in Christ or spit in his face and repudiate him cuz faith don't matter for nothing." No. Scripture (and 2000 years 0f Christianity) state that TWO things are needed for personal justification: The Christ and faith. While the Cross is universal (universal atonement), faith is not.

@prism the reason some are not personally justified is NOT that the Bible is wrong about Jesus dying for all but rather because the Bible is right about faith not being in all.

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Jesus did not always pray for EVERY human (past, present and future). I rarely do either. My last prayer was for the daughter of a good friend who broke her leg yesterday. But not praying specifically for someone does not prove that ERGO the Bible is wrong when it says the Jesus died for all.


Blessings on your Holy Week


- Josiah



.

 

[prism]

@prism Neither of those states that Jesus died for ONLY some few and not for all (is that why you didn't quote the verses)?

We have many that specifically, verbatim, literally, flat-out STATE that He died for "ALL." And none that state "no, that's not right, Jesus died for ONLY ____________."


Here's what God literally, flat-out, verbatim, in black-and-white, repeatedly states:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all.

1 Timothy 2:6 "Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all.

There are more.

Friend, you seem to think that "many" mandates ONLY some few; it does not. "Many" does not mean "only a few" or "not all." There are many people living on Earth today, that does not mean that most people are not living on Earth now, or that most on Earth are not alive. "Many" here does not mandate that ONLY SOME SMALL SUBGROUP of humans on earth are living on earth.






Friend, you are confusing two entirely different issues...

This thread is not about who is and is not saved (personal justification); everyone (except for a few Calvinists) do NOT believe that all are saved (although the word "many" can can used for them, although also "only a few" if we consider the percentage rather than the number). God "REVEALS" the saving work of Christ to only some - no debate there. But that does not mean that ergo He died for only those. That's not only ENTIRELY unbiblical (actually, it FLATLY contradicts Scripture) but it's illogical, too.

Don't all into a HERESY. One that (sadly) some radical Calvinists do. The HERESY that faith is irrelevant and functionally moot. The HERESY that if Jesus died for you, ergo you have personal justification regardless of whether you have faith. The HERESY of replacing John 3:16 with "For God so loved just a tiny few people (and you won't we told which) that He died just for them, so those few (who won't be identified) are saved whether they have faith in Christ or spit in his face and repudiate him cuz faith don't matter for nothing." No. Scripture (and 2000 years 0f Christianity) state that TWO things are needed for personal justification: The Christ and faith. While the Cross is universal (universal atonement), faith is not.

@prism the reason some are not personally justified is NOT that the Bible is wrong about Jesus dying for all but rather because the Bible is right about faith not being in all.





Jesus did not always pray for EVERY human (past, present and future). I rarely do either. My last prayer was for the daughter of a good friend who broke her leg yesterday. But not praying specifically for someone does not prove that ERGO the Bible is wrong when it says the Jesus died for all.


Blessings on your Holy Week


- Josiah



.

often 'all' is put for 'many', as an example...


Luke 2:1 ESV
In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.

Obviously, all the world was not registered.

Jesus specifically excluded the world in His prayer...

John 17:9 ESV
I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

 

[Josiah]

John 17:9 ESV
I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

Today, I prayed for the daughter of a friend. I didn't pray for any other but I did pray for her. Does that prove that ergo the Bible is wrong when it so often states Jesus died for all?

Just because Jesus on one occasion did not die for all people does not prove ergo He did not die for all as the Bible verbatim, specifically, literally, flat-out, repeatedly states that He did.


.


.

 

[prism]

Today, I prayed for the daughter of a friend. I didn't pray for any other but I did pray for her.

In your prayer did you state. 'I do not pray for other daughters"?

Does that prove that ergo the Bible is wrong when it so often states Jesus died for all?

It's a non sequiter.

Just because Jesus on one occasion did not die for all people does not prove ergo He did not die for all as the Bible verbatim, specifically, literally, flat-out, repeatedly states that He did.

Here is where it is '6 of one, a half dozen of the other'. If Jesus died for those in hell (the majority of souls), then He died for those in vain. His death was not in vain but accomplished His will to the uttermost....

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

 

[Josiah]

If Jesus died for those in hell (the majority of souls), then He died for those in vain.

@prism

A non sequiter.

No one has ever claimed that His death/resurrection is EFFECTUAL for everyone. Scripture nowhere remotely states that either. But the Bible DOES state that Jesus died for all people (yes, that includes those who have no faith and thus don't benefit from it) - it states that repeatedly, verbatim, literally, flat-out, word-for-word. It's one of the most clear teachings in all of the Bible. And I doubt God is wrong on that.

It's true that not everyone will go to heaven. But that reality is NOT because the Bible is wrong when it repeatedly, verbatim states that Jesus died for all, it's because the Bible is correct when it states that faith is essential and not all have faith.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

1. This is about the proclamation of His word, not the death of the messiah. This verse is irrelevant to our discussion; it's about an entirely different issue.

2. This does not state, "No, Jesus did not die for all but RATHER ONLY for _______________."


Here's what God literally, flat-out, verbatim, in black-and-white, repeatedly states:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all.

1 Timothy 2:6 "Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all.

There are more.

There is NOTHING in Scripture (or 1600 years of Christianity) that states that Jesus did not die for all but ONLY for some few. The "L" is not only entirely void of any affirmation in Scripture or Christianity, but flat out contradicts what the Bible repeatedly, literally, verbatim, word-for-word states.



Some very important things about that "L"....


1. The dogma that Jesus died ONLY for some unknown few (the "L" of TULIP) was invented by a couple of radical, latter-day Calvinists (who actually disagreed with Calvin at several critical points) who were reacting to some equally radical latter-day "free-will" Arminianists. Point-by-point, they simply said the opposite of whatever those free-will dudes stated. But the opposite of a wrong isn't necessary right (or biblical).


2. The basis of the "L" is a question: "Why would Jesus die for someone who isn't going to benefit from it?" Okay, it's fine to ask questions but questions are not proof of anything (other than the ability to ask it). God is love. Love sometimes isn't logical. Unconditional love may do things that aren't conditional or appreciated or even change things. Love isn't always reciprical or effectual. Questions aren't apologetics - in anything. And for those who believe that the Bible is the norma normans, they are irrelevant.... IRRELEVANT.


3. Undeniably, the Bible repeatedly, flat-out, verbatim, word-for-word STATES that Jesus died for all, for everyone. It does not say that all ergo are saved (indeed, it insists that FAITH is essential - and that not all have faith). It seems to be one of the most clear, most certain, most undeniable teachings in the Bible. Now, IF there were verses that flat-out stated. "Jesus died ONLY for ____________" then we'd have a problem and would need to find some way to resolve this (or simply permit the tension) but there is nothing - not one verse - that indicates that.


4. These radical, latter-day Calvinists made a very critical, very fundamental mistake (one we often see among latter-day Calvinists). It's the elimination of the role of faith, the teaching that the ONLY THING that matters in personal justification is whether Christ died for you or not. People don't go to heaven for one and only one reason: Christ did not die for them. This ignores the clear biblical teaching that faith is also necessary (John 3:16 etc). But these Calvinists were SO anti-Arminianists that ANY mention of faith was simply eliminated so as to not appear to suggest free-will.


5. This is a HORRIBLE, terrifying teaching. If Jesus died for ONLY some.... and this "some" is never identified.... and is likely quite few (some Calvinists put it at 1%, some as high as 20% of all humans) then how can I possibly know the He did for me? Is faith embracing something that is for me? The odds are clearly that He did NOT die for me... and what is extended to ME (by Christ, by Scripture, by Christians) is likely not FOR me, not available to me. I can never know.... but if I think it IS for me, I'm probably wrong. And Christ, Scripture and Christians are dishonest (and cruel) to suggest it is when it probably isn't (or at least there is no way to know if it is). "A terror of the conscience" as detractors call the "L" Now, some will try to get around this by saying that faith confirms this, but this just adds to the terror and uncertainty because how do I know my faith is from God and not something I created, how do I know it's "GENUINE" and from God? Which is the MESS these folks get into with "Once Saved, Always Saved" with the critical question of whether our faith is GENUINE or not; how can one know since they don't? But there is comfort is knowing that Jesus died for ALL (and therefore, for ME). These TULIP supporters must constantly question if faith is GENUINE (and of course, no one an know if it is). The ONLY certain, objective way to know that Jesus died for ME is either 1) MY full name is listed in the Bible as one for whom Jesus died or 2) Jesus died for all humans and since I'm a human, well..... There IS something real and "there" for faith to embrace, rely upon and apply, but for TULIP supporters, there's probably not.


Blessings on your Holy Week...


- Josiah



.

 

[prism]

It's true that not everyone will go to heaven. But that reality is NOT because the Bible is wrong when it repeatedly, verbatim states that Jesus died for all, it's because the Bible is correct when it states that faith is essential and not all have faith.

No need to shout, we are brothers in the Lord, no?

1. This is about the proclamation of His word, not the death of the messiah. This verse is irrelevant to our discussion; it's about an entirely different issue.

2. This does not state, "No, Jesus did not die for all but RATHER ONLY for _______________."

It shows His Word, (whether incarnate or not) goes forth with a specific purpose.

There is NOTHING in Scripture (or 1600 years of Christianity) that states that Jesus did not die for all but ONLY for some few. The "L" is not only entirely void of any affirmation in Scripture or Christianity, but flat out contradicts what the Bible repeatedly, literally, verbatim, word-for-word states.

The atonement is "Limited", limited to those who believe.

1. The dogma that Jesus died ONLY for some unknown few (the "L" of TULIP) was invented by a couple of radical, latter-day Calvinists (who actually disagreed with Calvin at several critical points) who were reacting to some equally radical latter-day "free-will" Arminianists. Point-by-point, they simply said the opposite of whatever those free-will dudes stated. But the opposite of a wrong isn't necessary right (or biblical).

I'm familiar with the history of the Remmonstrance.

2. The basis of the "L" is a question: "Why would Jesus die for someone who isn't going to benefit from it?" Okay, it's fine to ask questions but questions are not proof of anything (other than the ability to ask it). God is love. Love sometimes isn't logical. Unconditional love may do things that aren't conditional or appreciated or even change things. Love isn't always reciprical or effectual. Questions aren't apologetics - in anything. And for those who believe that the Bible is the norma normans, they are irrelevant.... IRRELEVANT.

???????

3. Undeniably, the Bible repeatedly, flat-out, verbatim, word-for-word STATES that Jesus died for all, for everyone. It does not say that all ergo are saved (indeed, it insists that FAITH is essential - and that not all have faith). It seems to be one of the most clear, most certain, most undeniable teachings in the Bible. Now, IF there were verses that flat-out stated. "Jesus died ONLY for ____________" then we'd have a problem and would need to find some way to resolve this (or simply permit the tension) but there is nothing - not one verse - that indicates that.

Did Jesus die with the intention that all would be saved?

4. These radical, latter-day Calvinists made a very critical, very fundamental mistake (one we often see among latter-day Calvinists). It's the elimination of the role of faith, the teaching that the ONLY THING that matters in personal justification is whether Christ died for you or not. People don't go to heaven for one and only one reason: Christ did not die for them. This ignores the clear biblical teaching that faith is also necessary (John 3:16 etc). But these Calvinists were SO anti-Arminianists that ANY mention of faith was simply eliminated so as to not appear to suggest free-will.

I don't relate to "radical, latter-day Calvinists".

5. This is a HORRIBLE, terrifying teaching. If Jesus died for ONLY some.... and this "some" is never identified.... and is likely quite few (some Calvinists put it at 1%, some as high as 20% of all humans) then how can I possibly know the He did for me? Is faith embracing something that is for me? The odds are clearly that He did NOT die for me... and what is extended to ME (by Christ, by Scripture, by Christians) is likely not FOR me, not available to me. I can never know.... but if I think it IS for me, I'm probably wrong. And Christ, Scripture and Christians are dishonest (and cruel) to suggest it is when it probably isn't (or at least there is no way to know if it is). "A terror of the conscience" as detractors call the "L" Now, some will try to get around this by saying that faith confirms this, but this just adds to the terror and uncertainty because how do I know my faith is from God and not something I created, how do I know it's "GENUINE" and from God? Which is the MESS these folks get into with "Once Saved, Always Saved" with the critical question of whether our faith is GENUINE or not; how can one know since they don't? But there is comfort is knowing that Jesus died for ALL (and therefore, for ME). These TULIP supporters must constantly question if faith is GENUINE (and of course, no one an know if it is). The ONLY certain, objective way to know that Jesus died for ME is either 1) MY full name is listed in the Bible as one for whom Jesus died or 2) Jesus died for all humans and since I'm a human, well..... There IS something real and "there" for faith to embrace, rely upon and apply, but for TULIP supporters, there's probably not.

God doesn't deal with us as statistics or probabilities.
As He draws us out of the slop of this world and regenerates us from the inside through His effecual call via the Gospel, we will know beyond a shadow of a doubt. Martyrs who faced gruesome torture and persecution, did not wonder if Jesus died for them.
God makes Himself known to His children through His Spirit...

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

[Josiah]

The atonement is "Limited", limited to those who believe.

@prism

True but irrelevant to the discussion.

The "L" of TULIP is this: Jesus did not die for all but ONLY (exclusively, solely) for SOME. Who that "some" is varies from Calvinists to Calvinist, but it's always some small subset of all. The dispute is NOT whether His death results in personal justification for all (all agree it does not - well all but those Calvinists who invented Universalism), the debate is whether Jesus died for all (as obviously the Bible literally, verbatim, flat-out, word for word, repeatedly STATES - a point Calvinists usually concede) BUT RATHER whether Jesus actually died for all or if He did not die for all but ONLY for ____________ (Calvinists fill in the blank differently). The debate is not (and never has been) whether all are personally justified but whether Jesus died for all or just some few (1%-20% of humanity).

IF you agree with Scripture and Christianity that Jesus DIED for all, then you repudiate and reject the opposite view, the "L" of TULIP.

As He draws us out of the slop of this world and regenerates us from the inside through His effecual call via the Gospel, we will know beyond a shadow of a doubt.

That's the horror of the "L". It mandates that no one can know if Jesus died for them (He probably did not). So you're right, with "L", no one can possibly know until they reach heaven or hell.... until then, they live with horrible, terrifying fear and uncertainty. MAYBE Jesus died for them but He probably didn't. They'll have to wait until they are greeted by Jesus or the Devil. But the Bible states "these things are written so that you may be sure." And that same Bible repeatedly, verbatim, flat-out STATES that Jesus died "for all, for everyone" and thus He died for me. I CAN know that if I accept what the Bible says rather than this horrible dogma of "L" that a couple of radical, latter-day Calvinists invented.

Martyrs who faced gruesome torture and persecution, did not wonder if Jesus died for them.

Right. Because no one prior to about 1600 ever embraced the "L" - that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some few. They accepted what the Bible states and Christianity affirmed (even declared as dogma at the Ecumenical Council of Orange) - that Jesus died for all and thus for them. They didn't need to wait until after death and then determine whether it's hot or cool, whether that"s Jesus or Satan welcoming them.




.

 

[Messy]

@prism

True but irrelevant to the discussion.

The "L" of TULIP is this: Jesus did not die for all but ONLY (exclusively, solely) for SOME. Who that "some" is varies from Calvinists to Calvinist, but it's always some small subset of all. The dispute is NOT whether His death results in personal justification for all (all agree it does not - well all but those Calvinists who invented Universalism), the debate is whether Jesus died for all (as obviously the Bible literally, verbatim, flat-out, word for word, repeatedly STATES - a point Calvinists usually concede) BUT RATHER whether Jesus actually died for all or if He did not die for all but ONLY for ____________ (Calvinists fill in the blank differently). The debate is not (and never has been) whether all are personally justified but whether Jesus died for all or just some few (1%-20% of humanity).

IF you agree with Scripture and Christianity that Jesus DIED for all, then you repudiate and reject the opposite view, the "L" of TULIP.





That's the horror of the "L". It mandates that no one can know if Jesus died for them (He probably did not). So you're right, with "L", no one can possibly know until they reach heaven or hell.... until then, they live with horrible, terrifying fear and uncertainty. MAYBE Jesus died for them but He probably didn't. They'll have to wait until they are greeted by Jesus or the Devil. But the Bible states "these things are written so that you may be sure." And that same Bible repeatedly, verbatim, flat-out STATES that Jesus died "for all, for everyone" and thus He died for me. I CAN know that if I accept what the Bible says rather than this horrible dogma of "L" that a couple of radical, latter-day Calvinists invented.





Right. Because no one prior to about 1600 ever embraced the "L" - that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some few. They accepted what the Bible states and Christianity affirmed (even declared as dogma at the Ecumenical Council of Orange) - that Jesus died for all and thus for them. They didn't need to wait until after death and then determine whether it's hot or cool, whether that"s Jesus or Satan welcoming them.




.

Dutch reformed just say that if you believe in God, you have entered in and can see a sign with chosen. Only the extreme ones preach doubt as far as I know.

 

[Josiah]

Dutch reformed just say that if you believe in God, you have entered in and can see a sign with chosen. Only the extreme ones preach doubt as far as I know.

@Messy

(FYI... My wife's family are all Reformed Calvinists, going back over 400 years in Scotland, with LOTS of Presbyterian/Church 0f Scotland ministers in her background. Her immediate family are Orthodox Presbyterians - a she was when we met - a pretty conservative branch).


Only the extreme Reform teach the "L" of TULIP, that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some. Most realize (and admit) this contradicts Scripture and creates a "terror of the conscience." Some are honest about this and refer to themselves as "Four Point Reformed" (meaning they reject the "L") but most have simply CHANGED the "L" from the "Jesus died ONLY for SOME" to "Jesus' death BENEFITS only some." The latter of course is not debated by anyone and is simply a repudiation of the "L" of TULIP. According to my wife and her family, it's hard to find a Calvinist who holds to the "L" in its original and official meaning. A fact which I applaud..... Calvinists are generally outstanding theologians, it's good they've generally returned to biblical, orthodox Christianity on this point.


Blessings on your Holy Week.


- Josiah



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[prism]

The "L" of TULIP is this: Jesus did not die for all but ONLY (exclusively, solely) for SOME. Who that "some" is varies from Calvinists to Calvinist, but it's always some small subset of all. The dispute is NOT whether His death results in personal justification for all (all agree it does not - well all but those Calvinists who invented Universalism), the debate is whether Jesus died for all (as obviously the Bible literally, verbatim, flat-out, word for word, repeatedly STATES - a point Calvinists usually concede) BUT RATHER whether Jesus actually died for all or if He did not die for all but ONLY for ____________ (Calvinists fill in the blank differently). The debate is not (and never has been) whether all are personally justified but whether Jesus died for all or just some few (1%-20% of humanity).

IF you agree with Scripture and Christianity that Jesus DIED for all, then you repudiate and reject the opposite view, the "L" of TULIP.

If He died for some (elect) but His intention was for all (as you are putting forward), yet only a few are saved, then His purpose was thwarted.
If His intention was for all, but only some get saved, again, His purpose gets thwarted.
If His intention was for some and those some get saved then He accomplishes what He set out to do.

So you're right, with "L", no one can possibly know until they reach heaven or hell...

I never said that. The elect know, through the indwelling Holy Spirit and a transformed life.

Right. Because no one prior to about 1600 ever embraced the "L" - that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some few. They accepted what the Bible states and Christianity affirmed (even declared as dogma at the Ecumenical Council of Orange) - that Jesus died for all and thus for them. They didn't need to wait until after death and then determine whether it's hot or cool, whether that"s Jesus or Satan welcoming them.

Using that same standard, are you willing to deny that 'we are justified by faith ALONE', since it wasn't taught until the Reformation (16th Century)?

 

[Albion]

Using that same standard, are you willing to deny that 'we are justified by faith ALONE', since it wasn't taught until the Reformation (16th Century)?

But it WAS taught from ancient times forward.

The Protestant Reformation of the 16th century is noteworthy for making an issue of 'Faith Alone,' and that took place when it did because of the accelerating trend promoted by the Church of Rome towards works-based alternatives to Faith. Examples include Indulgences, pilgrimages, saint veneration, and a range of other superstitious practices thought capable of increasing the individual's chances with God.

 

[prism]

But it WAS taught from ancient times forward.

Albion, could you share a few quotes?

 

[Messy]

If He died for some (elect) but His intention was for all (as you are putting forward), yet only a few are saved, then His purpose was thwarted.
If His intention was for all, but only some get saved, again, His purpose gets thwarted.
If His intention was for some and those some get saved then He accomplishes what He set out to do.

It makes Him all powerful as ppl see all powerful, yet unsympathetic. Jesus wept for Jerusalem. He did want them saved. He loved the rich guy, who walked away. 1 Timothy pray for everyone, because God wants everyone saved. The only time that you see He doesn't want them saved is when they have hardened their hearts too much and sinned against the Spirit. The only way to combine all texts is how some preacher from England did it, can't remember the name, Whitefield or something, He knew who would not harden their hearts and reject Him and those He wanted to save. Now they act like God is the bozo, throws dice, I like you and I hate you for no reason whatsoever and I can go against your own will. You wanted to serve God, but haha too bad, you didnt get the gift of faith. Sounds more like satan than God to me and ex christians hate God because they're taught that He can just whoop do everything, get everyone to heaven, yet they now think He's unwilling, like what the lazy slave said. I knew you were a hard man and reap where you didnt sow. Calvin was killing ppl and came up with it.
yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. 3 And these things they will do [a]to you because they have not known the Father nor Me.

 

[Josiah]

It makes Him all powerful as ppl see all powerful, yet unsympathetic. Jesus wept for Jerusalem. He did want them saved. He loved the rich guy, who walked away. 1 Timothy pray for everyone, because God wants everyone saved. The only time that you see He doesn't want them saved is when they have hardened their hearts too much and sinned against the Spirit. The only way to combine all texts is how some preacher from England did it, can't remember the name, Whitefield or something, He knew who would not harden their hearts and reject Him and those He wanted to save. Now they act like God is the bozo, throws dice, I like you and I hate you for no reason whatsoever and I can go against your own will. You wanted to serve God, but haha too bad, you didnt get the gift of faith. Sounds more like satan than God to me and ex christians hate God because they're taught that He can just whoop do everything, get everyone to heaven, yet they now think He's unwilling, like what the lazy slave said. I knew you were a hard man and reap where you didnt sow. Calvin was killing ppl and came up with it.
yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. 3 And these things they will do [a]to you because they have not known the Father nor Me.

Correct.

These tiny few latter-day radical Calvinists (who actually disagreed with Calvin on several key points) invented the "L" out of thin air, with NOTHING in Scripture that affirms it, simply to counter an equally new and unbiblical position of some radical, latter-day Arminianists. BOTH are new inventions, BOTH are unbiblical.

The unavoidable reality (which even these "L" supporters MUST admit) is that the Bible clearly, verbatim, flat-out, repeatedly states that Jesus died for ALL people, and never - not once - does the Bible ever state that Jesus did not die for all but ONLY for SOME. But they circumvent this undeniable reality by substituting questions: "Why would Jesus die for people He knew would not benefit from it?" "If Jesus died for all then He must desire all to be saved (which IS biblical!) so then wouldn't all then be saved? So He must not have died for all (the Bible is wrong there), He must not want all to be saved (the Bible is wrong there too) and therefore He must have died ONLY for those He desired to be saved." Problem is: Questions aren't substantiation of anything.... and the answers self gives to the questions self asks directly CONTRADICT what the Bible specifically states and Christians believed for 1600 years (and nearly all still do).


True: Not all have personal justification. But this reality is NOT because the Bible is wrong when it states that Jesus died for all but because the Bible is right when it states that faith is essential and not all have faith.

This new invention of "L" (Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for SOME) not only obviously CONTRADICT clear, verbatim, flat-out, numerous Scriptures and 1600 years of Christian faith and affirmation, but creates a "terror of the conscience" since it means no one has objective assurance that Jesus died for THEM (indeed, it means He almost certainly did not).





.

 

[prism]

I see we are all hardened in our positions, perhaps that is the way God predestined it (tongue in cheek).