REDEMPTION/ATONEMENT: US vs THEM (the L of TULIP)

[Albion]

It had no effect … your meaning was clear and the intended NOT was obvious.

Well, that's encouraging! It's embarrassing when one's typo makes the statement into the exact opposite of what you (meaning me, in this case) were intending to say! Thanks.

 

[Albion]

Revelation 7
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

… the WHOLE WORLD that God so Loved and Jesus died for!

Honestly, this ^ sounds like you're making a case for our side, as opposed to any kind of argument for an Elect or for Limited Atonement a la John Calvin.

This entire debate is a mess now.

 

[Albion]

What about “those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose” … you know, THAT GROUP OF PEOPLE who are foreknown, predestined, called, justified and glorified … all by HIM. [You know the verses.] Were they an “elect” (which just means “chosen”) group?

I happen to believe that THEY are “whosoever believes” and the recipient of the “gift” of Ephesians 2:8-9.

It makes sense--the parts that I've highlighted, that is, not the added commentary.

God loves those who love him. God calls mortals to repentance. The offer, the gift of saving Faith, is extended to all. Certainly.

 

[Josiah]

Will you accept “many” … or MUST it be the exact word “some”?

The uber-Calvinist view of Limited Atonement is that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for SOME (and yes, that "some" is a small minority, those few who enter by the narrow door; I have heard some Calvinist estimate that Jesus died for less than 5% of the population; today about 20% of the world's population even claims to be Christian).

But again, let's see what God says about for whom Jesus died:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all.

1 Timothy 2:6 "Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all.

There are more.

Where are the verses that reject the above and state instead that Jesus died ONLY for some subgroup of humans, NOT for all?



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[atpollard]

Honestly, this ^ sounds like you're making a case for our side, as opposed to any kind of argument for an Elect or for Limited Atonement a la John Calvin.

This entire debate is a mess now.

At issue is did God have to wait for THEM to choose, or did God know WHO from before Adam and those God DREW are the ones that chose.

God knew THEM; God chose THEM; God justified THEM; God parties like it’s 1999 with THEM in Revelation!

 

[atpollard]

The uber-Calvinist view of Limited Atonement is that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for SOME (and yes, that "some" is a small minority, those few who enter by the narrow door; I have heard some Calvinist estimate that Jesus died for less than 5% of the population; today about 20% of the world's population even claims to be Christian).

But again, let's see what God says about for whom Jesus died:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all.

1 Timothy 2:6 "Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all.

There are more.

Where are the verses that reject the above and state instead that Jesus died ONLY for some subgroup of humans, NOT for all?



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Somehow, I don’t think you actually answered my simple question … which is an answer in and of itself, I guess.

 

[Albion]

At issue is did God have to wait for THEM to choose, or did God know WHO from before Adam and those God DREW are the ones that chose.

God knew THEM; God chose THEM; God justified THEM; God parties like it’s 1999 with THEM in Revelation!

Except that you continue to cite evidence which says the opposite of that. AND then also, you apparently cannot explain away the mountain of Scriptural evidence that we've presented (see post #24 for some of it), which I can only conclude is the reason you don't attempt it. Again, this leaves us with no way to proceed.

 

[atpollard]

Except that you continue to cite evidence which says the opposite of that. AND then also, you apparently cannot explain away the mountain of Scriptural evidence that we've presented (see post #24 for some of it), which I can only conclude is the reason you don't attempt it. Again, this leaves us with no way to proceed.

That was just a rehash of post #10 and I offered to present scripture in post #19 … post #24 was the response telling me that he wasn’t interested in hearing my scripture. So I DO NOT RESPOND to “your” scripture because “you” do not want a response. Josiah, for all his wonderful qualities, is not listening … he is just waiting to repeat his message that I am wrong. That is not conversation.

 

[Josiah]

At issue is did God have to wait for THEM to choose, or did God know WHO from before Adam and those God DREW are the ones that chose.

God knew THEM; God chose THEM; God justified THEM; God parties like it’s 1999 with THEM in Revelation!

Okay. Now how does that support the uber-Calvinist invention of Limited Atonement, that Jesus did NOT die for all but rather ONLY for some, the "L" of TULIP that you state is the topic of this thread?



Again, let's see what God says about for whom Jesus died:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all.

1 Timothy 2:6 "Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all.

There are more.

Where are the verses that reject the above and state instead that Jesus died ONLY for some subgroup of humans and NOT for all?


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[atpollard]

Okay. Now how does that support the uber-Calvinist invention of Limited Atonement, that Jesus did NOT die for all but rather ONLY for some, the "L" of TULIP that you state is the topic of this thread?

THEM = Limited.
(but you are not really interested in my explanations, are you?)

 

[atpollard]

Where are the verses that reject the above and state instead that Jesus died ONLY for some subgroup of humans and NOT for all?

This is a rhetorical question, isn’t it?

 

[prism]

Where are the verses that reject the above and state instead that Jesus died ONLY for some subgroup of humans and NOT for all?

I'm still looking for examples of biblical preaching where the Apostles are proclaiming something to the effect of, "Jesus died for you", or "Jesus died for all".

 

[Josiah]

This is a rhetorical question, isn’t it?

Obviously not, @atpollard

The "L" invention of radical, latter-day Calvinists in the late 16th Century... that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some... the issue of this thread according to you... where are the verses that state that? IMO, it's likely that if ANYTHING in Scripture states that, SOMEONE in nearly 500 years would have found that verse, but.... If you have, quote it.

Here is what God says about this...

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all.

1 Timothy 2:6 "Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all.

If the "L" invention you promote is true, and the above verses are the opposite of the truth, then show the verses that state that. Otherwise, it seems wise to me to go with what God repeatedly, literally, verbatim, flat-out states rather than the opposite view invented by those radical, latter-day Calvinists in the late 16th Century.




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[Josiah]

I'm still looking for examples of biblical preaching where the Apostles are proclaiming something to the effect of, "Jesus died for you", or "Jesus died for all".

@prism

Here are just some examples....


The Apostle John:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


The Apostle Paul:

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all.

1 Timothy 2:6 "Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all.

There are more.


Here are all the examples of other Apostles stating that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some few:

Crickets. Nothing.




.

 

[atpollard]

This is a rhetorical question, isn’t it?

Obviously not, @atpollard

Then why did you respond to my offer of a verse with “many” (rather than your requested “some FEW”) with a repost of your wall of text designed to drown out all conversation?

Why do you KEEP responding with the same accusatory tone and the same wall of text?

Who wants to play “scripture pong”? (Not me.)
Your questions feel VERY insincere and your responses seem rote. I am not sure your involvement in this topic would pass the Turing Test.

 

[Josiah]

Then why did you respond to my offer of a verse with “many” (rather than your requested “some FEW”) with a repost of your wall of text designed to drown out all conversation?

@atpollard


"Many" does not contradict "all." But "ONLY some" does. The "L" invention in TULIP of some radical, latter-day Calvinists does contradiction "all." "There are many people on the Earth" does not contradict that "all people live on the Earth." But "only a few of the people live on the Earth" does.

And I've never heard a radical, latter-day Calvinist state that the "L" means MOST of the 8 billion people now on Earth and perhaps 15-20 billion once on Earth are those for whom Christ died, they insist a very small percentage of such are those for whom Christ died, not "many" but very few.


Here is what God says about this...

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all.

1 Timothy 2:6 "Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all.

If the "L" invention you promote is true, and the above verses are wrong, then show the verses that state that. Otherwise, it seems wise to me to go with what God repeatedly, literally, verbatim, flat-out states rather than the opposite view invented by those radical, latter-day Calvinists in the late 16th Century.

Your questions feel VERY insincere

What questions?

Where I desire something from God stating that Christ died ONLY for some and not for all (as the Bible says)? It's insincere only of what God says is irrelevant.



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[prism]

@prism

Here are just some examples....


The Apostle John:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


The Apostle Paul:

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all.

1 Timothy 2:6 "Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all.

There are more.


Here are all the examples of other Apostles stating that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for some few:

Crickets. Nothing.




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I believe I said examples of biblical preaching where the Apostles are proclaiming something to the effect of, "Jesus died for you", or "Jesus died for all".
Do you have any from the Book of Acts where evangelistic preaching is happening?

 

[Albion]

I believe I said examples of biblical preaching where the Apostles are proclaiming something to the effect of, "Jesus died for you", or "Jesus died for all".

This is confusing. Josiah gave you several examples that fit precisely what it is that you asked for--writings of Apostles, from the Bible, and some of these even use the exact wording you used. For example, the words "for all."

You did refer to "evangelistic preaching," if that is an additional requirement. However, the Apostle Paul is considered to be the most famous evangelist in world history, and the communications we have from him as books of the New Testament fulfill that request of yours perfectly.

 

[Josiah]

I believe I said examples of biblical preaching where the Apostles are proclaiming something to the effect of, "Jesus died for you", or "Jesus died for all".
Do you have any from the Book of Acts where evangelistic preaching is happening?

To my knowledge, there's nothing specific within the Book of Acts that states "Jesus died for all" OR "Jesus did not die for all people but rather only for some."

But there are verses in other biblical books, which Christians usually accept as equally normative. Among them (just to share a few)...

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.​

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all.

1 Timothy 2:6 "Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all.

There are many more. And of course, these contradict the "L" of TULIP (the topic of this thread), the invention of some radical, latter-day Calvinists that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY for SOME.

There are no Scriptures - in Acts or any other book accepted as Scripture by anyone - that states that Jesus did not die for all but rather ONLY for SOME.


Blessings!


Josiah



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[atpollard]

And I've never heard a radical, latter-day Calvinist state that the "L" means MOST of the 8 billion people now on Earth and perhaps 15-20 billion once on Earth are those for whom Christ died, they insist a very small percentage of such are those for whom Christ died, not "many" but very few.

Ummm … our argument is that Christ died for those that will spend eternity in heaven.
Do even YOU believe that “MOST of the 8 billion people now on Earth and perhaps 15-20 billion once on Earth” will spend eternity in heaven?

Your complaint is nonsensical.
Of course we don’t say that, you don’t believe that most people will be saved either.

We argue that Jesus shed his blood for His sheep but not for the goats (who will never be sheep).
QUALITY over QUANTITY.