Problems with the Reformation

[visionary]

By the fifth century (401-500 AD) Judaism was separated from Christianity and the language of "sacred writings" was considered to be Hebrew/Aramaic by the Jews of that time. In the times when Jesus and the apostles lived Greek and Latin and any other language would be accepted if God chose to inspire sacred scripture in that language. Naturally enough Christians believe that God did in fact inspire the writings of the new covenant but in the fifth century Jews did not. I am not sure why Jewish beliefs and practises in the fifth century AD ought to play much of a role in deciding Christian doctrine and practises.

That is the Roman trail you are following. There were many surviving Jewish congregations scattered around the world. If the Jesuits found them, they were slaughtered. Their existence removed and sometimes the only place you find any note of them is in the Catholic records. Because that is where they make note of those heretics.

 

[MoreCoffee]

That is the Roman trail you are following. There were many surviving Jewish congregations scattered around the world. If the Jesuits found them, they were slaughtered. Their existence removed and sometimes the only place you find any note of them is in the Catholic records. Because that is where they make note of those heretics.

The Jesuits were not formed until 27th-September 1540 by their founder (saint Ignatius of Loyola). You've written that the Jesuits were finding Jewish congregations 1,100 years before the Jesuits were founded - this is an absurd claim.

 

[visionary]

The Jesuits were not formed until 27th-September 1540 by their founder (saint Ignatius of Loyola). You've written that the Jesuits were finding Jewish congregations 1,100 years before the Jesuits were founded - this is an absurd claim.

You are correct, it was the roman priests and papacy that were turning in the Jews and heretics in to be burned for not abiding by Catholic faith.

In 325 A.D. it was declared official by Constantine at the Council of Nicene (Roman decree), whereby worshipping on the Sabbath or in a synagogue was prohibited, as well as celebrating the feasts. In order to become a Christian under Constantine's reign, a new Jewish believer had to renounce all customs, rights, legalisms, unleavened breads and feasts ...new moons...synagogues, shabbats... everything Jewish, every right, law and custom (15). To make an even more defined division of the two sects, Constantine at this time declared that Christians would worship only on the first day of the week, now called Sunday, the day of the sun god.

He further changed the observance of Passover to the spring pagan holiday of Ishtar, now known as Easter, as well as changing the birth of Yeshua from the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles (Succoth) to the pagan winter solstice, the birthday of Nimrod on December 25, now known as Christmas(7). Nowhere in Scripture are we told to celebrate the birth of Yeshua, but we are commanded in Leviticus 23 to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. Thus, we began to lose our Jewish roots as pagan idolatry entered into the worship of the God of Israel, whom you know is the King of Kings, Lord of Lord, The Holy One of Israel, Lord of the Sabbath, Yeshua our Messiah..

 

[MoreCoffee]

You are correct, it was the roman priests and papacy that were turning in the Jews and heretics in to be burned for not abiding by Catholic faith.

In 325 A.D. it was declared official by Constantine at the Council of Nicene (Roman decree), whereby worshipping on the Sabbath or in a synagogue was prohibited, as well as celebrating the feasts. In order to become a Christian under Constantine's reign, a new Jewish believer had to renounce all customs, rights, legalisms, unleavened breads and feasts ...new moons...synagogues, shabbats... everything Jewish, every right, law and custom (15). To make an even more defined division of the two sects, Constantine at this time declared that Christians would worship only on the first day of the week, now called Sunday, the day of the sun god.

He further changed the observance of Passover to the spring pagan holiday of Ishtar, now known as Easter, as well as changing the birth of Yeshua from the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles (Succoth) to the pagan winter solstice, the birthday of Nimrod on December 25, now known as Christmas(7). Nowhere in Scripture are we told to celebrate the birth of Yeshua, but we are commanded in Leviticus 23 to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. Thus, we began to lose our Jewish roots as pagan idolatry entered into the worship of the God of Israel, whom you know is the King of Kings, Lord of Lord, The Holy One of Israel, Lord of the Sabbath, Yeshua our Messiah..

I suspect that burning heretics was not a practise in the 5th century - which is the era you made the claim about - so this claim is rather absurd too. In 7th century Byzantine law it was permitted to burn heretics but that was a practise of the East not the West and by that time Constantinople was the capital of the Byzantine-Roman empire not Rome and the Pope in Rome didn't burn heretics or anybody else as far as I know. Where did you get this questionable history?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I did a search, seems you've cut and pasted from "http://www.a-voice.org/discern/loseroot.htm" ... a web site maintained by some of the folk who propagate that poor quality translation called "The Scriptures" - I say poor quality because its entire new testament is altered to include Hebrew letters and speculative spellings of "Hebrew names" in English letters. I guess "to each their own" will not be deemed an adequate response, but that's what I think. I have no interest in following "Hebrew roots" movement philosophy nor do I think that their claims about history can withstand any significant scrutiny. It's a pity that religion is so often the refuge of strange and prejudicial philosophies.

EDIT PS: I downloaded the PDF just now, and it appears that "The Scriptures" may have changed some of its readings since the printed copy that I last checked was published. The beginning of Philippians says "Paul and Timothy" which is not very "Hebrew" at all ... I'll check the PDF edition more carefully and see if it deserves a better review from me.

 

[visionary]

Justin's "Dialogue with Trypho the Jew", chapter xlvii (about A.D. 140), talks of two sects of Jewish Christians who observe the Mosaic Law for themselves.

 

[visionary]

On the sect of the Nazarenes which Paul was involved with.... You could read this book. https://books.google.com/books?id=q...GCMIQ6AEIQTAG#v=onepage&q=Symmachiani&f=false

 

[visionary]

There were many groups that were keepers of the Commandments and having faith in Yeshua. http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/tex...001:11.1;seq=312;vid=4215;page=root;view=text

 

[MoreCoffee]

Justin's "Dialogue with Trypho the Jew", chapter xlvii (about A.D. 140), talks of two sects of Jewish Christians who observe the Mosaic Law for themselves.

On the sect of the Nazarenes which Paul was involved with.... You could read this book. https://books.google.com/books?id=q...GCMIQ6AEIQTAG#v=onepage&q=Symmachiani&f=false

Saint Justin the martyr lived in the second century not the fifth. You keep mixing centuries as if time does not matter. Of course in the second century there were still Jewish groups that had links to Christ but many of them were not Christian in their theology - they were strict anit-trinitarian monotheists who thought of Jesus as a human being and as messiah but not as God. Ebionites, for example.

 

[visionary]

The Elcesaites, Elkasaites, Elkesaites, or Elchasaites were an ancient Jewish-Christian sect in Sassanid southern Mesopotamia.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Elcesaites, Elkasaites, Elkesaites, or Elchasaites were an ancient Jewish-Christian sect in Sassanid southern Mesopotamia.

We've strayed a long way from this thread's topic. Maybe it is time to return to it.

 

[visionary]

I guess what I am trying to say is that Catholics and Protestants were not the only ones around, nor were they immune to the carnage of the battle between the Catholics and Protestants. There were Sabbatarians of Jewish Christians.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I guess what I am trying to say is that Catholics and Protestants were not the only ones around, nor were they immune to the carnage of the battle between the Catholics and Protestants. There were Sabbatarians of Jewish Christians.

Protestants were not around in the fifth century AD any more than were Jesuits.

 

[visionary]

OK... reformation in your mind started with Luther... and is purely a protestant thing...

 

[MoreCoffee]

OK... reformation in your mind started with Luther... and is purely a protestant thing...

I reckon that the Protestant Reformation is in fact this thread's topic, not some nebulous reformation that nobody knows anything about ...

 

[visionary]

K.

 

[Lamb]

Luther wanted the Church to return to what scriptures stated. Of course anyone who has read Luther knows his beliefs changed on some topics throughout his life. Did Luther totally miss something obvious?