How can I believe anything?

[MisterBobbyPin]

Hello, I am a Exmormon and I a finding myself in the middle of a faith crises. I have been lied too, I have been deceived, and I don't know how I can trust any religion now. If one religion can so easily lie how can I have faith in any prophet's word? How can I trust the bible when people can lie so easily about The Book Of Mormon? How can I trust any leader when my leaders lied to me?

 

[Albion]

Hi, "Pin," and welcome back.

In a way, your problem is not a lot different from that experienced by anybody thinking of switching between different Christian denominations; on the other hand, Mormonism is almost a different religion, despite what its leaders and most members think.

When you say that you've been lied to, including about the Book of Mormon, I think you have come to a position that is much more fundamental than what people who have left, say, Catholicism for Protestantism, have experienced.

That said, the first thing that caught my eye was your comment about trusting "any prophet's word." I have the feeling that you were referring to recent religious leaders being considered to be prophets in the manner of Joseph Smith or the more recent presidents of the LDS. That is something that suggests to me a lingering belief in Mormonism...but just that you are put off about certain aspects of the religion. If so, giving a good reply to your inquiry is made tougher.

But if that's not the case, and you are realizing that the whole basis of Mormonism is false, I'd say that your first move might be to study the history of Christianity and its connection to the Bible. No latter-day theories, but the history of the church founded by Jesus Christ, even allowing for the famous division into different denominations that came along later.

That is to say that the "track record" of the church that Jesus himself said he'd founded, and about which he promised the Holy Spirit would keep from allowing the gates of hell to prevail against it, is where you hopefully will be able to gain your footing.

And, I wouldn't say to do this all alone. The assistance of a conventional Christian pastor, or even several, plus perhaps some church's BIble Study group would be helpful....and that's not to say to immediately join a Methodist Church or a Lutheran Church or any other one and hope you'd made a decent choice. This can take a little while.

Meanwhile, if you have more specific questions of us, don't hesitate to ask!

 

[Messy]

Hello, I am a Exmormon and I a finding myself in the middle of a faith crises. I have been lied too, I have been deceived, and I don't know how I can trust any religion now. If one religion can so easily lie how can I have faith in any prophet's word? How can I trust the bible when people can lie so easily about The Book Of Mormon? How can I trust any leader when my leaders lied to me?

Only have faith in the Bible, no other books and don't trust anyone. Don't follow man, but Jesus. You can follow a pastor after you have tested what he says by the Bible, like the Bereans did when Paul preached and he praised them for it. In these last days there will be many deceivers, but if you keep your eye on Jesus, He'll show you. He got you out of it. You can trust Him.

 

[MisterBobbyPin]

Only have faith in the Bible, no other books and don't trust anyone. Don't follow man, but Jesus. You can follow a pastor after you have tested what he says by the Bible, like the Bereans did when Paul preached and he praised them for it. In these last days there will be many deceivers, but if you keep your eye on Jesus, He'll show you. He got you out of it. You can trust Him.

Well what makes the bible the book to follow? What does it have in it that proves its validity.? And how much of the stories of the bible should be taken as non-fiction?

 

[Messy]

Well what makes the bible the book to follow? What does it have in it that proves its validity.? And how much of the stories of the bible should be taken as non-fiction?

It's inspired by the Holy Spirit and if you get filled with the Holy Spirit, He leads you into all truth.

1 John 2:27​

27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

John 14:26 NKJV​

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

And the Holy Spirit never goes against God's Word, so if some charismaniac says the Holy Spirit said you should go bark, you can say: bye bye. That's not in the Bible. But first things first. First you have to get to know God and taste and see that He's good and doesn't lie.

 

[Albion]

Well what makes the bible the book to follow? What does it have in it that proves its validity.? And how much of the stories of the bible should be taken as non-fiction?

In other words, you want us to convince you of the truth of Christianity, if that's possible.

I had hoped that you had become aware of the untenable nature of Mormonism, and were looking for a Christian church home that was free of all the "add-ons" and changes made to the historic Christian faith by the Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, and so on. But if all -- or none -- of the great religions of the world are possible candidates for becoming your new faith, that would be a different proposition.

As concerns your question here, the Bible has been called the most frequently challenged book in the world, and it's stood up to all of the challenges. So, that's one item that recommends the Bible. What's more, it is remarkably consistent as an historical record.

The Old Testament, which was in existence before the Incarnation, was extended quite smoothly through the New Testament. Compare that with the Book of Mormon which DENIED a lot of the Old Testament as well as the New Testament and has also been altered, revised, a number of times during the course of the past 200 years!

That's important to keep in mind. It's the word of God, the Bible, divine revelation, that is the standard, not the offerings of any minister, whether or not he's billing himself as a prophet. It's the Bible that is the guide, and everything else, everyone else, must be judged by you in accordance with how well they agree with the Bible.

And if we think again about the Koran and some of the sacred writings of the East, we find that these don't carefully and logically unfold the divine plan for mankind over the course of centuries from Creation to the end of the age. The Koran, for example, is just a series of short meditations and there's no chronology to them at all. That's roughly the case with many of the Eastern religions' sacred writings also.

 

[heavenslight]

I have come to a knowledge of the reality of Jesus Christ and Christianity as a result of the Lord Jesus revealing himself directly to me through a miraculous encounter. I was strongly influenced by atheistic existentialism at one point. I will pray that God will reveal himself to you and I suggest that you also pray earnestly for God to reveal himself. It may or may not involve a supernatural encounter in your case. Matthew 7:7-8 says "Keep on asking and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks the door will be opened."

 

[heavenslight]

I also have some suggestions of books. I believe MisterBobbyPin that you are looking for proof, evidence that Christianity is valid. These books are generally from a Charismatic perspective. The first is Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts by Craig Keener and is in 2 volumes, published by the Baker Publishing Group. The book is academic and footnoted as well as pricy. Thriftbooks may have less expensive used copies. The book includes verification of hundreds of instances of healings and other miraculous phenomena as well as philosophical discussion justifying Christianity.

Also Miracles and Manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the History of the Church by Jeff Doles by Walking Barefoot Ministries which includes excerpts from antiquity through the 19'th century by various authors regarding miraculous phenomena within a Christian context.

Also Only Believe by Don Stewart by Destiny Image Publishers which includes biographical accounts of various Christians with supernatural giftings such as Maria Woodworth Etter, William Branham and Smith Wigglesworth.

Also, Acts Today by Ralph W Harris by the Gospel Publishing House which includes documented healings, xenoglossia and other miraculous phenomena.

The above books are recommended for anyone who wishes some empirical justification of Christianity. The first book is somewhat academic but the others are very readable.

 

[Lamb]

Did the blatantly lie to you or did they give you information that they believe and you found out it was false?

 

[MisterBobbyPin]

Did the blatantly lie to you or did they give you information that they believe and you found out it was false?

Here is a few examples of what they told me:
Book Of Mormon is a historical book that holds up to scrutiny (It doesn't)
Polygamy was revelation of god
The priesthoods ban on Africans Americans was just doctrine and was never taught as gospel. (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/09/mormons-race-max-perry-mueller/539994/)
The Church is not a wealthy one ($32 billion in stock)

That is why I find it hard to believe anyone.

 

[tango]

Hello, I am a Exmormon and I a finding myself in the middle of a faith crises. I have been lied too, I have been deceived, and I don't know how I can trust any religion now. If one religion can so easily lie how can I have faith in any prophet's word? How can I trust the bible when people can lie so easily about The Book Of Mormon? How can I trust any leader when my leaders lied to me?

It can be hard to trust leaders in general when trusted leaders turn out to have lied to us. That said it's important not to take too broad a brush when introducing some warranted caution into your life. The fact the person who lied to you was a leader doesn't mean all leaders lie.

There's a lot of discussion of believing Scripture that is ultimately self-referencing. You will find arguments that ultimately boil down to little more than "the Bible is true because the Bible says so", which doesn't really help determine whether the Bible is really true. Let's face it, anybody can write a book and proclaim it to be true - you've presumably already had your trust in just such a situation damaged.

You'll also find some interesting arguments that present one statement from Scripture, twist logic around in a way that doesn't work, and then attempt to "prove" that Christianity is true. For example, 1Co 15:17 says "And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!", which is true because if Jesus did not rise from the dead then the very foundations of the Christian faith collapse. The trouble is if they then try to claim that "Christ rose from the dead" proves "Christianity is true", which you can't conclude from Paul's statement. If you believe Scripture then Lazarus also rose from the dead, as did the son of the widow who encountered Elijah, as did the centurion's daughter raised by Jesus, as did many others at the time of Christ's death. Yet their being raised from the dead isn't used as the basis of much of anything eternal.

If you find it hard to believe something, consider both sides of a belief. Consider the implications of something being true, and the implications of it being false. Be brutally honest and conclude whether the implications of one belief are rational or absurd, and keep following the process until you start to shake out some of the options.

For myself I'd start with the first four words of the Bible. "In the beginning God..." For now, ignore the rest of Scripture. I'll even go a step further and drop the G to a lowercase, to indicate a generic deity of some description that may not even be the God described in the Bible. In the beginning, god. The alternative is simple, "in the beginning, not-god". Do you find it more plausible to conclude that one or more eternal beings are out there that created everything, or that everything simply appeared as a cosmic fluke? Personally I find the cosmic fluke theory requires a lot more faith than the eternal creator theory. But follow things through, and figure whether you find it more plausible that a god is out there, or that there are no gods out there.

If you conclude there are no gods your faith journey probably ends there. If you conclude the existence of one or more gods is the most plausible situation, the next step is to figure out what it or they are like.

 

[Albion]

Here is a few examples of what they told me:
Book Of Mormon is a historical book that holds up to scrutiny (It doesn't)
Polygamy was revelation of god
The priesthoods ban on Africans Americans was just doctrine and was never taught as gospel. (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/09/mormons-race-max-perry-mueller/539994/)
The Church is not a wealthy one ($32 billion in stock)

That is why I find it hard to believe anyone.

I can appreciate how all of those affected you, but I don't get why the resulting conclusion was not just that THIS PARTICULAR church isn't credible...or reputable.

That's what every Catholic and Protestant denomination has said along, and I'm sure you are aware of that.

But you felt instead that it called all religions into question. Frankly, I don't quite understand why that would be the result.

 

[tango]

I can appreciate how all of those affected you, but I don't get why the resulting conclusion was not just that THIS PARTICULAR church isn't credible...or reputable.

That's what every Catholic and Protestant denomination has said along, and I'm sure you are aware of that.

But you felt instead that it called all religions into question. Frankly, I don't quite understand why that would be the result.

I think it's reasonable to argue "this faith lied, therefore other faiths may also lie". It's just not reasonable to argue "this faith lied, therefore other faiths are also lying".

 

[Josiah]

1. By nature, religion isn't "provable" (in reality, VERY little is).

2. "Faith" (Pistos) means to trust/rely/depend upon/act on something that can't be proven. When you board a plane.... take a bit of food.... drive a car.... cross the street.... breathe..... you are employing faith.

3. In Christianity, I'd look for something with ancient and ecumenical roots - rather than some modern dude who claims new stuff. Does this teaching have "legs" and "roots"? I'd look for an epistemology that embraces accountability and a rule OUTSIDE self.

4. https://www.christianityhaven.com/threads/what-i-like-about-lutheranism.12006/



Blessings!


Josiah



,

 

[tango]

1. By nature, religion isn't "provable" (in reality, VERY little is).

2. "Faith" (Pistos) means to trust/rely/depend upon/act on something that can't be proven. When you board a plane.... take a bit of food.... drive a car.... cross the street.... breathe..... you are employing faith.

3. In Christianity, I'd look for something with ancient and ecumenical roots - rather than some modern dude who claims new stuff. Does this teaching have "legs" and "roots"? I'd look for an epistemology that embraces accountability and a rule OUTSIDE self.

4.

It's also good to consider the basis for having faith.

When you board a plane you are trusting your life to thousands of gallons of highly flammable liquid strapped to a small metal tube. But that small metal tube has flown before, many times, and has got untold thousands of people from one city to another perfectly safely.

When you cross a bridge you can probably see other things crossing before you. The bridge at the bottom of my hill will take my weight. I know this because I've walked across it many times, and have also seen honking great trucks driving across it. If it can take their weight it can take my weight. If I see the kind of rickety bridge beloved of adventure movies I'd be a little more cautious about crossing it.

We can also consider the implications of what happens if our faith proves to be misplaced. A rickety bridge that spans an adventure park a couple of feet off the ground offers no great loss if it breaks. A rickety bridge spanning a ravine several hundred feet deep is a different proposition.

In many situations it's also perfectly workable to accept "I don't know" as an option, or accept that an answer is incomplete but the best we have right now. Will that 747 successfully complete the journey from Miami to Seattle? Probably. But unless I need to actually travel from Miami to Seattle it's a valid option to figure I don't know if it will make it and leave it at that.

 

[MisterBobbyPin]

I can appreciate how all of those affected you, but I don't get why the resulting conclusion was not just that THIS PARTICULAR church isn't credible...or reputable.

That's what every Catholic and Protestant denomination has said along, and I'm sure you are aware of that.

But you felt instead that it called all religions into question. Frankly, I don't quite understand why that would be the result.

Because to me, if someone can easily use something like God to justify racism or abuse how can I trust that someone isn't just using God or the idea of God to justly something just as bad.

 

[Albion]

Because to me, if someone can easily use something like God to justify racism or abuse how can I trust that someone isn't just using God or the idea of God to justly something just as bad.

I'd say that you 'find out' by becoming familiar with the Bible which doesn't teach such a thing. Then you will have your bearings as to which churches and preachers are in step with the Bible and which have taken their guidance from someone or something else.

After that, you'd have to study, research, probably make visits, and so on, just as you'd have to do when looking to find the right house or college or etc.

It just seemed to me that you jumped right from dissatisfaction with the LDS (and rightly so) to disbelief in everything Christian and, more than that, with anything and everything that any preacher, priest, or active layperson of any religion holds true. If there are liars in the ranks of the clergy, it doesn't mean that every clergyman is a liar.

I cannot put myself into your shoes exactly, and therefore I am still on your side as you try to sort things out, but my personal belief is that this abrupt change to doubting religious faith in general is premature.

I saw that you were roundly frustrated with your earlier membership, but I thought I also saw in your first post that the door was open for anyone listening to you to offer a solid reason for believing the Bible and, consequently, becoming a member of some church again, if the right one can be found.

 

[Albion]

It's just not reasonable to argue "this faith lied, therefore other faiths are also lying".

Right.

 

[Albion]

1. By nature, religion isn't "provable" (in reality, VERY little is).

2. "Faith" (Pistos) means to trust/rely/depend upon/act on something that can't be proven. When you board a plane.... take a bit of food.... drive a car.... cross the street.... breathe..... you are employing faith.

3. In Christianity, I'd look for something with ancient and ecumenical roots - rather than some modern dude who claims new stuff. Does this teaching have "legs" and "roots"? I'd look for an epistemology that embraces accountability and a rule OUTSIDE self.

4. https://www.christianityhaven.com/threads/what-i-like-about-lutheranism.12006/

Excellent points all!

Faith isn't provable in the same way as we might prove an historical event or some scientific rule. However, millions have come to faith through Holy Scripture because it is verifiable.

 

[Messy]

Because to me, if someone can easily use something like God to justify racism or abuse how can I trust that someone isn't just using God or the idea of God to justly something just as bad.

Look at their fruit. A good tree gives good fruit. We had a girl in church whose dad was a false teacher. He just took another extra wife who lived in his backyard and her mom had 12 kids from him. Or when they're a money grabber. No use to even listen.