USA Fair Tax Act 2023

Jazzy

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What are your thoughts on the Fair Tax Act proposal to eliminate all federal income/payroll taxes and replace them with a single consumption tax on retail sales?
 

Lamb

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I'm not sure how it works, tbh. I mean each state is in charge of setting it's tax rates for goods and services so does that violate that? Delaware has no sales tax...and corporations and older people enjoy that luxury.

On the other hand, the current tax system is complicated and I keep hearing people complain about rich people not paying their "fair share", whatever that is. I suppose that even with a higher goods tax that cheating will happen, but my guess is that bartering will come back into play to avoid taxes all together.
 

tango

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The current system is a disaster. It seems every which way you turn you're getting taxed and taxed and taxed again. Then comes the disaster that is the Unaffordable Care Act that simply piles on more taxes, striking people with low incomes and poor health particularly hard. From what I can see if you can't make at least $30-40,000 from working you're probably better off not bothering. That doesn't seem like a good way to get people into the workforce.

Shifting taxation away from income and onto consumption makes a lot of sense, although I have many concerns about doing that.

My primary concern is that government is unlikely to leave income and payroll taxes at zero if they get a federal sales tax/VAT. The last thing we want is a federal sales tax only to find that in a few years time the government ran out of money (again) and figured they could change the rate of income tax from 0% to 2% and then slowly work it back up to a top rate of 30% or more.

A sales tax would need to be structured so that it didn't hammer the people at the bottom of the economic heap. The last thing the nation needs, especially for those earning around the standard deduction, is for the cost of absolutely everything to go up by 20% or more. (For comparison, the national rate of VAT in the UK is 20% for most products; across the EU I believe it ranges from about 18% to about 25%)

In the UK some products are subject to VAT and some are not. Food products are not subject to it, unless they are considered "luxury", which leaves all sorts of quirks in the system. You can buy biscuits without VAT but a thin layer of chocolate on them turns them into a luxury biscuit which is subject to 20% VAT. Clothing for children is not subject to VAT but clothing for adults is, but it's based on size so if you're an unusually large child your clothing costs went up 20% while if you're an unusually small adult you can dress for less. On the topic of "luxury food" a dispute some years ago over whether a particular food product was a cake or a biscuit went all the way to the High Court and racked up millions in assorted costs.

Because VAT is quite high it can often be cheaper to buy things abroad and bring them in to the country. You're supposed to declare them at Customs but you'd be amazed how forgetful people get when returning from a trip abroad. With France barely an hour away on the train it's easy to go abroad and bring things back. In that regard it's much like people who live near a state with zero sales tax can cross the state line, go shopping without the taxes and save some money. Maybe you're supposed to declare that and pay the taxes but crossing state and international lines seems to make people forgetful.

It's hard to avoid paying VAT when going shopping but if you're having work done by a tradesman you can often save a lot of money by paying in cash. As with tourists, you'd be amazed how a plumber or electrician can forget to charge the VAT because they were busy counting the cash you just gave them.

Registering for VAT as a business creates a headache because it's another return that has to be filed. You don't have to register in the UK until your turnover hits a particular level, which distorts the market because as soon as your turnover hits an arbitrary number you have to register and charge VAT, so all your prices jump.

If you are a VAT-registered entity then everything you buy is not subject to VAT (you may pay it but can reclaim it when you file your return). If you buy it to resell it or for internal use you don't pay the VAT. It's a huge incentive to branch out in your business - if you're a self-employed electrician with a passion for an expensive hobby and can find even the weakest justification to consider that hobby a business activity then all your gear just got cheaper.

Ultimately the end consumer will pay the taxes, just like always. The rich will find ways to avoid it and those who lack the means or the mentality to avoid paying will get hammered every which way, just like always. It would make a lot more sense for the government to stop spending money like a drunken sailor on shore leave and do what everybody else has to do - live within their means.
 

Albion

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The current system is a disaster, that's true. However, the proposal referred to in the Original Post will be "dead on arrival" when and if it is taken up by a Congressional committee. It's simply too full of unacceptable consequences, even if the basic idea evokes some sympathy.

For example, the tax rates would be nothing like today's sales taxes, but would be 30% as compared with the 4 to 7% state sales tax rates that are common at present....if, that is, most of the existing federal services, etc. were to be maintained anywhere near current levels. As soon as real examples of the cost of milk if and when this proposal is made law is revealed, the idea will be dead.

Also, because the wealthy spend less--percentage-wise--of their incomes on goods than do the poor, the public will inevitably view the concept as a giveaway to the rich.
 
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tango

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The current system is a disaster, that's true. However, the proposal referred to in the Original Post will be "dead on arrival" when and if it is taken up by a Congressional committee. It's simply too full of unacceptable consequences, even if the basic idea evokes some sympathy.

For example, the tax rates would be nothing like today's sales taxes, but would be 30% as compared with the 4 to 7% state sales tax rates that are common at present....if, that is, most of the existing federal services, etc. were to be maintained anywhere near current levels. As soon as real examples of the cost of milk if and when this proposal is made law is revealed, the idea will be dead.

Also, because the wealthy spend less--percentage-wise--of their incomes on goods than do the poor, the public will inevitably view the concept as a giveaway to the rich.

As long as there were exemptions on essential items (food, clothing, heating oil etc) it would be less of a giveaway. That would also be consistent with other countries' implementations of VAT in various forms. Of course there's disagreement about what counts as "essential" - I believe in the UK feminine hygiene products are subject to VAT, for example.

A major setback with it would be the people who have paid income tax all their lives who would now be faced with an effective 30% reduction in the buying power of their pensions as they are subject to a federal sales tax.

Ultimately the problem is that the government spends like a drunken sailor on shore leave. Until that stops everything else is secondary.
 
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