Accretions

Lanman87

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I have been watching videos by Dr. Gavin Ortland for the past several months. Dr. Ortland is a Reformed Baptist Pastor who is very well versed in Church History, the Early Church Fathers, and Historic Protestant Christianity.

Dr. Ortland contends that the church, particularly the post-nicean church had accretions in non-apostolic beliefs/practices that eventually became dogma/practices in the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches.

From my perspective Dr. Ortland is absolutely correct. The Reformation was the realization that this had occurred and an attempt to move Christianity back to Apostolic Christianity.

What is your perspective?
 

Albion

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What you described is so well-known that the only possible issue would seem to be
"WHICH innovations are we talking about?"

:giggle:
 

Lanman87

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What you described is so well-known that the only possible issue would seem to be
"WHICH innovations are we talking about?"

:giggle:
take your pick. The reason I ask is because he gets a lot of push back from Catholics and Orthodox.
 

Albion

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take your pick. The reason I ask is because he gets a lot of push back from Catholics and Orthodox.
"Take my pick??"

You didn't have a list of possibilities in your post, so am I expected to create one--and then comment on the history of some or all of those beliefs?

No, the message you gave us was correct as it stood. Some very well-known doctrines (of the Catholic and Orthodox churches, mainly) were added or invented in later centuries. But on the other hand, some controversial dogmas and practices that have been denounced in certain circles probably do have an Apostolic pedigree. I was interested to know which beliefs, etc. you (and/or Dr. Ortland) had in mind.

The problem is that each of them, whatever it may be, has to be examined on its own. We cannot generalize and say that everything those churches do and think that is unlike what some other denominations do and believe was a mere human invention...but there are some people who do actually think that way.
 

Lanman87

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"Take my pick??"

You didn't have a list of possibilities in your post, so am I expected to create one--and then comment on the history of some or all of those beliefs?

No, the message you gave us was correct as it stood. Some very well-known doctrines (of the Catholic and Orthodox churches, mainly) were added or invented in later centuries. But on the other hand, some controversial dogmas and practices that have been denounced in certain circles probably do have an Apostolic pedigree. I was interested to know which beliefs, etc. you (and/or Dr. Ortland) had in mind.

The problem is that each of them, whatever it may be, has to be examined on its own. We cannot generalize and say that everything those churches do and think that is unlike what some other denominations do and believe was a mere human invention...but there are some people who do actually think that way.
Well, the latest dust up is over icon veneration.
 

Albion

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Okay, well, there is a lot -- a lot! -- on that video, and I didn't watch all of it. And then, too, there are a number of different ins and outs that relate to the matter of iconography, regardless of who is giving the lecture.

You notice that Ortland was careful always to refer to the issue as the veneration of images, not to the use of images in churches and private worship. So, right there, we separate some of the churches. Protestants of the more fundamentalistic variety would condemn the mere use of images as props, whereas other churches would focus on the idea of venerating them...or using them to venerate the personage represented in that art. And that's not all; the declaration by the Second Council of Nicaea mainly concerned the rightness or wrongness of destroying images.

So maybe it's not so surprising that we now also have to note that the "Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches" are not really on the same page when it comes to this issue. "The Iconoclast Controversy" is important in Eastern Christianity, but not nearly as big an issue in the West, although both consider the seven Ecumenical Councils to be authoritative.

Everyone agrees that it is wrong to worship the artwork itself or consider it to have magical powers, yet the typically convoluted theology of Orthodoxy allows for something that looks for all the world to be icon worship. In Roman Catholicism, the normal position is that these statues or paintings, etc. are stimuli to the senses of the person who is praying or contemplating divine matters, including the saintly life of whoever may be pictured. There is some waffling on the matter in everyday life, but the use of images in the two communions is quite different. And then we have non-Catholic churches such as the Anglican and Lutheran which do use images without any controversy but do not condone praying to the saint, if that's the figure involved, let alone attribute special powers to that being.

There is much more than can be said on this subject, but let's not forget the historical sequence of events, since that is what started this thread. Dr. Ortland was clear, on the part of the video I saw, that the use of images--or was it the veneration of images?--didn't go very far back in history before Nicaea II. But I disagree. We have bona fide images from Christian worship places in the catacombs of Rome showing images of Christ and other Christian figures.

It's true that the very earliest Christians preferred simple imagery, not crucifixes, for instance, but what is the famous "fish" insignia that we all know if not an image (however simple) of a created being that lives beneath the waves? (Exodus 20:4-6 “You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea.)

So much of this is a gradual development, and there are plenty of nuances built into it, making this particular issue more difficult, in my view, than some of the ones I thought you might be thinking of, such as Transubstantiation or the Papacy.
 
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Lanman87

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We have bona fide images from Christian worship places in the catacombs of Rome showing images of Christ and other Christian figures.
Dr. Ortland argued the the presence of images doesn't mean they were venerated.

such as Transubstantiation or the Papacy.
I've talked them to death. I've never really considered the use of iconography in the veneration of icons and how it developed.
 

Lanman87

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Dr. Ortland opened up a hornest nest of Catholic Apologist. Trent Horn and Jimmy Akin make a response video that is almost three hours long.



Here is a short input on the discussion from a Lutheran.

Dr. Jordan B. Cooper
 

Albion

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Dr. Ortland argued the the presence of images doesn't mean they were venerated.
Okay. I thought that if I'd watched the whole thing, that point might have been made clearer. As you know, some opponents of having images think the mere creation of them is against the Second Commandment, while other opponents are focused on the veneration of them or on what they perceive to be the veneration of them.
I've talked them to death. I've never really considered the use of iconography in the veneration of icons and how it developed.
As with the veneration of the saints themselves, there's little doubt that devotion to them increased over the centuries, so the argument could be made that "it" wasn't an Apostolic practice.
 

prism

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Dr. Ortland contends that the church, particularly the post-nicean church had accretions in non-apostolic beliefs/practices that eventually became dogma/practices in the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches.
Would infant baptism be one of those accretions? This is a sore spot for the Reformed and Lutherans who claim sola scriptura, but must add human reason to make the Scriptures support such a practice. I realize the ante-nicean Church may have practiced such but we don't see it explicitly taught or practiced in Scripture by the Apostles. Is this even an ante-nicean accretion, let alone post-nicean.?
 

Albion

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Would infant baptism be one of those accretions? This is a sore spot for the Reformed and Lutherans who claim sola scriptura, but must add human reason to make the Scriptures support such a practice. I realize the ante-nicean Church may have practiced such but we don't see it explicitly taught or practiced in Scripture by the Apostles. Is this even an ante-nicean accretion, let alone post-nicean.?
The details concerning baptism were in question for the first several centuries, until settled by the church.

Interestingly enough, one item that isn't a concern to anyone anymore but once was a big issue was whether it is possible for sins to be forgiven if committed after baptism. The mode of baptism is still debated, as we know.

But in short, the conventional understanding and usage since antiquity (applicable to the Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, and Reformed churches) is grounded in Scripture.

It's Scripture that is always cited when any of the following are questioned. That is to say, infants are eligible, pouring water is as valid as immersion, rebaptisms are not valid, and the belief that the ceremony (sacrament) forgives sins is affirmed.
 

prism

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But in short, the conventional understanding and usage since antiquity (applicable to the Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, and Reformed churches) is grounded in Scripture.

It's Scripture that is always cited when any of the following are questioned. That is to say, infants are eligible, pouring water is as valid as immersion, rebaptisms are not valid, and the belief that the ceremony (sacrament) forgives sins is affirmed.
Are there any actual instances in Scripture where we see infants baptized?
I realize there are a few nebulous verses the paedobaptists twist and squeeze to justify infant baptism.
It seemed convenient for the new Church-State ‘Christian‘ religion to promote their numbers.
 

Albion

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Are there any actual instances in Scripture where we see infants baptized?
Are there actual instances in Scripture in which we see the ages of any of the people who were baptized?

In your previous post, you referred to Christians who have to go by "human reason" in addition to Scripture in order to justify their beliefs concerning Baptism. That is exactly what I feel those folks do who set some age requirement for being baptized, when there is no such requirement indicated.

Additionally, I am sure that you are aware that Scripture refers to "whole households" being baptized, and these almost certainly included children. The likelihood of such a reference being instead about a large staff of servants -- that's the usual rationalization given -- is quite small and would almost certainly have resulted in a special mention in the Bible passages involved.

So, if we go by Scripture, we basically have no reason to exclude children. But, by the way also, what is the alternative, really? Some churches that favor "Believer's Baptism" will baptize a 9 year old with the juvenile level of understanding of salvation, atonement, justification, and etc. whereas others put it as the teen years and some others make it be actual adulthood.

And then some of these require rebaptism when the person changes churches. None of that is to be found in Scripture.
 

Joelightening

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I have been watching videos by Dr. Gavin Ortland for the past several months. Dr. Ortland is a Reformed Baptist Pastor who is very well versed in Church History, the Early Church Fathers, and Historic Protestant Christianity.

Dr. Ortland contends that the church, particularly the post-nicean church had accretions in non-apostolic beliefs/practices that eventually became dogma/practices in the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches.

From my perspective Dr. Ortland is absolutely correct. The Reformation was the realization that this had occurred and an attempt to move Christianity back to Apostolic Christianity.

What is your perspective?
My perspective is that every single Church group in the world has some false doctrines. We as individuals should pray and ask God for wisdom and knowledge, so we will know the true words of Christ.

I think the world could end within the next 10 years, although of course I don't know when the world will end. Russia is threatening the world with nukes. They are serious about that. The falling away from true doctrine is in full swing and has infected all Churches. Watch and pray!
 

Josiah

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Well.....

It is a common Protestant claim that the ORIGINAL (conservative, magisterium, "first-wave") REFORMERS simply stripped away Roman Catholic inventions added during the Middle Ages. And there is some truth in that (removing Transubstantiation from Real Presence, removing Purgatory, removing Papal Infallibility, etc.). Luther and the "39 Articles" Anglicans certainly quality; Calvin to a bit lesser degree (his followers less so).

But this should not be confused with the Reconstructionists of later, radical "Reformers" - the Zwinglians, the Anabaptists, etc.. (and later, the LDS, JW's etc.). They repudiated much and desired to "return" to "the early church." In most cases, they had no idea what the "early church" believed or did (and really didn't care), they simply CLAIMED that their ideas and practices were the ones in the First Century (with zero evidence to support this). They claimed early Christians shared their views on Baptism, Communion, etc., etc. (where they certainly did not).

Luther, Calvin and the original Anglicans were not revolutionary or reconstructionists, they were REFORMERS. They had no desire to "throw the baby out with the bathwater." They had no desire to destroy and start from scratch. There were a FEW things in dogma and practice that needed reforming. A "course correction" rather than a repudiation and reconstruction.

Click on "What I Like about Lutheranism" link in my signature line for more on this.




.
 

Albion

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My perspective is that every single Church group in the world has some false doctrines.
I've heard this comment from quite a few people. Still, I have to wonder how anybody knows what every one of the tens of thousands of existing Christian "church groups" actually professes??

In reality, the speaker is guessing. And it's a guess based, I suppose, on the speaker finding fault with some of the better-known denominations or with the ones that he's encountered in his own life. But it's certainly not the case that he knows that "every single Church group in the world has some false doctrines."

Be that as it may, the result is the important thing. People who make the claim usually have decided that they know what's a true doctrine, and what's a false doctrine, and so refuse to associate with any denomination. Not only is that presumptuous, thinking that any one individual knows what thousands of others in different ways have misinterpreted, but it's also contrary to Scripture, and it's Scripture that is what the speaker almost always has used to arrive at his conclusion.

How the individual's thinking could possibly be superior is attributed by him to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but that stands in contrast to the Bible's teaching that the Holy Spirit will guide the Church that Christ founded and would keep the gates of hell from prevailing against it.

...individuals should pray and ask God for wisdom and knowledge, so we will know the true words of Christ.
 
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Joelightening

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I could also say that all Churches have some true doctrines. I have read through various denominational handbooks and have found no groups with all true doctrines. Those books only cover groups with 5000 or more members. There are thousands of small groups. We would hear about them if they had true doctrines, for a city set upon a hill can't be hidden.
 

Albion

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I could also say that all Churches have some true doctrines. I have read through various denominational handbooks and have found no groups with all true doctrines.
I guess here's where we have to ask what those false doctrines are, but the bigger point remains that your assessment is just one personal opinion among tens or hundreds of thousands of others just like it.

By the way, what church do you belong to or attend? Knowing that would make the discussion a lot easier.
 

prism

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re there actual instances in Scripture in which we see the ages of any of the people who were baptized?
Well we know infants aren't soldiers. (Lu 3:14)
In your previous post, you referred to Christians who have to go by "human reason" in addition to Scripture in order to justify their beliefs concerning Baptism. That is exactly what I feel those folks do who set some age requirement for being baptized, when there is no such requirement indicated.
touché.
Additionally, I am sure that you are aware that Scripture refers to "whole households" being baptized, and these almost certainly included children. The likelihood of such a reference being instead about a large staff of servants -- that's the usual rationalization given -- is quite small and would almost certainly have resulted in a special mention in the Bible passages involved.
People can baptize/dedicate children all they want to, my beef is the doctrine of baptismal regeneration.
 

prism

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The details concerning baptism were in question for the first several centuries, until settled by the church.
Again, what happened to sola scriptura?
But in short, the conventional understanding and usage since antiquity (applicable to the Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, and Reformed churches) is grounded in Scripture.

It's Scripture that is always cited when any of the following are questioned. That is to say, infants are eligible, pouring water is as valid as immersion, rebaptisms are not valid, and the belief that the ceremony (sacrament) forgives sins is affirmed.
THE Scriptures given are usually quite 'iffy', (e.g. 'households') leaving more questions than answers.
 
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