Are you supposed to forgive "some" only?

[Albion]

I'm not sure where you came up with that. He freely forgives those who put their trust in Jesus, i.e. those whom He had predestinated in time He calls and justifies those who heed His Gospel call.

Obviously, she "came up with that" by expressing the standard belief of Christians, both Catholic and Protestant, on the matter of who it was that Christ died for.

While there are some references in Scripture to an Elect, when it comes to the effects of the sacrifice of the Cross, the same Scripture plainly states that the sacrifice was offered for all mankind.

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."
1 John 2:2

 

[prism]

Obviously, she "came up with that" by expressing the standard belief of Christians, both Catholic and Protestant, on the matter of who it was that Christ died for.

While there are some references in Scripture to an Elect, when it comes to the effects of the sacrifice of the Cross, the same Scripture plainly states that the sacrifice was offered for all mankind.

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."
1 John 2:2

I was referring to this part of her post..."Then God is asking you to lie to people by saying He forgives mankind when you believe He only forgives some?"

He only forgives some (not all). Those who place their trust in Jesus.

 

[Lamb]

I'm not sure where you came up with that. He freely forgives those who put their trust in Jesus, i.e. those whom He had predestinated in time He calls and justifies those who heed His Gospel call.
Did He call everyone? Does He justify all?

You aren't getting what I'm saying...you claim that God doesn't forgive all but wants us to forgive all. Why would a God who doesn't forgive all want everyone else to do differently? Now do you see the problem with that type of theology? It doesn't fit in with the biblical God who for so loved the world. Not just some of the world.

 

[prism]

You aren't getting what I'm saying...you claim that God doesn't forgive all but wants us to forgive all. Why would a God who doesn't forgive all want everyone else to do differently? Now do you see the problem with that type of theology? It doesn't fit in with the biblical God who for so loved the world. Not just some of the world.

No, I don’t believe God forgives all. I don’t believe you do either. Do you believe heaven will be filled with unforgiven people?
A person must come in repentance and faith to Jesus Christ to be saved.


No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
— John 6:44-45

Where does God tell us to unconditionally forgive all?

I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say. For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church.
— 3 John 9-10

And this was from John, the ‘Apostle of love’.

or from Paul…

It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife.
— 1 Corinthians 5:1

I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
— 1 Corinthians 5:5

Did Paul and John forgive all?

 

[Lamb]

No, I don’t believe God forgives all. I don’t believe you do either. Do you believe heaven will be filled with unforgiven people?
A person must come in repentance and faith to Jesus Christ to be saved.


No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
— John 6:44-45

Where does God tell us to unconditionally forgive all?

I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say. For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church.
— 3 John 9-10

And this was from John, the ‘Apostle of love’.

or from Paul…

It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife.
— 1 Corinthians 5:1

I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
— 1 Corinthians 5:5

Did Paul and John forgive all?

I believe that all were justified at the cross, but not all will have salvation because they reject Him. When man rejects God and His forgiveness, then he forfeits the forgiveness that was won for his sins. That means his sins are kept on him instead of being covered in Christ like those who have faith in the Savior (in their baptisms they are clothed in Jesus).

 

[prism]

I believe that all were justified at the cross, but not all will have salvation because they reject Him. When man rejects God and His forgiveness, then he forfeits the forgiveness that was won for his sins. That means his sins are kept on him instead of being covered in Christ like those who have faith in the Savior (in their baptisms they are clothed in Jesus).

To say all were justified at the cross (universal justification) is as foreign sounding to me as limited atonement is to you. Do you have Scripture for that one? Under that scheme ‘free will’ would reign supreme.
I have seen too many ‘remember their baptism’, who consequently had no interest in God’s truths found in the Scriptures.

 

[Albion]

I believe that all were justified at the cross, but not all will have salvation because they reject Him. When man rejects God and His forgiveness, then he forfeits the forgiveness that was won for his sins. That means his sins are kept on him instead of being covered in Christ like those who have faith in the Savior (in their baptisms they are clothed in Jesus).

Your reply couldn't be any clearer, Lamb. The only thing that seems to be standing in the way of you being understood is his unwillingness to take the majority view among Christians for what it is. Right or wrong, there's nothing about the conventional view that's contrary to Scripture or doesn't make sense.

He himself described it as "foreign sounding" to him, however.

But then there's nowhere to go with the discussion so long as you won't accommodate him by changing your beliefs and adopting his instead.

 

[Lamb]

To say all were justified at the cross (universal justification) is as foreign sounding to me as limited atonement is to you. Do you have Scripture for that one? Under that scheme ‘free will’ would reign supreme.
I have seen too many ‘remember their baptism’, who consequently had no interest in God’s truths found in the Scriptures.

Josiah has given a lot of scripture already that backs it up. Plus, as a Lutheran, we believe that the will is bound to sin so maybe that's something you could look into?

 

[prism]

Josiah has given a lot of scripture already that backs it up. Plus, as a Lutheran, we believe that the will is bound to sin so maybe that's something you could look into?

Actually I was quite studied in the Confessional Lutheran side of things, and am quite familiar with their position.

 

[Lamb]

Actually I was quite studied in the Confessional Lutheran side of things, and am quite familiar with their position.

Really? I'm surprised because your answers as well as your questions posed don't even show it.

 

[prism]

Really? I'm surprised because your answers as well as your questions posed don't even show it.

You shouldn’t be surprised as people’s views change as they grow in the Lord.

 

[Albion]

Do they also forget everything they had learned earlier while growing in the Lord?

That's the issue here when we explain something that's really rather routine and basic for most Christians, whether Catholic or Protestant, and you respond by talking as though you are stunned that anyone could believe such a thing.

No, I don’t believe God forgives all. I don’t believe you do either. Do you believe heaven will be filled with unforgiven people?

 

[prism]

Do they also forget everything they had learned earlier while growing in the Lord?

That's the issue here when we explain something that's really rather routine and basic for most Christians, whether Catholic or Protestant, and you respond by talking as though you are stunned that anyone could believe such a thing.

Soo, ‘Do you believe heaven will be filled with unforgiven people?’ I’d be stunned if you do.

 

[Messy]

For the limited atonement believers, do you only forgive some people? How do you know who you're supposed to forgive since only God knows the heart of men? How do you see this verse:

Matthew 6:14
For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

And this verse?

Acts 7:59-60
While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.”

That verse doesn't say Lord you didn't die for them...it says do not hold this sin against them. How do you reconcile such a verse?

Then there's this:

Matthew 18:21-22
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times? “Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.”


What I'm getting at is that scripture tells us to love our neighbors...it doesn't say to only love some. It doesn't say to only forgive Christians. So why would you only believe that God doesn't love the world?

Hello! Long time no see.
1 John 5 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

John 20
22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”


We are not to love and forgive everyone. Now I forgive everyone, because I'm not one of the apostles and I can't smell if someone sins unto death, although, I'm not gonna love and forgive the antichrist. Pharisees who had sinned against the Spirit and were called a brood of vipers by John the baptist and Jesus, they didn't really love and forgive them. But I don't know such ppl, so I simply stay with forgive and love everyone and God wants everyone to get saved and pray for everyone to get saved.

 

[Lamb]

Hello! Long time no see.
1 John 5 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

John 20
22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”


We are not to love and forgive everyone. Now I forgive everyone, because I'm not one of the apostles and I can't smell if someone sins unto death, although, I'm not gonna love and forgive the antichrist. Pharisees who had sinned against the Spirit and were called a brood of vipers by John the baptist and Jesus, they didn't really love and forgive them. But I don't know such ppl, so I simply stay with forgive and love everyone and God wants everyone to get saved and pray for everyone to get saved.

What about the Lord's prayer...
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us,

And then there's the scripture that tells us to love our neighbors as we love ourselves...
Mark 12:31 You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.

 

[Lamb]

You shouldn’t be surprised as people’s views change as they grow in the Lord.

But you claim you know the Lutheran views and then bring up Free Will which is NOT Lutheran at all.

 

[Messy]

What about the Lord's prayer...
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us,

And then there's the scripture that tells us to love our neighbors as we love ourselves...
Mark 12:31 You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.

Yes but still those texts that say the opposite are there too, so I think those were for how to deal with the pharisees or something.

 

[Messy]

For the limited atonement believers, do you only forgive some people? How do you know who you're supposed to forgive since only God knows the heart of men? How do you see this verse:

Matthew 6:14
For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

And this verse?

Acts 7:59-60
While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.”

That verse doesn't say Lord you didn't die for them...it says do not hold this sin against them. How do you reconcile such a verse?

Then there's this:

Matthew 18:21-22
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times? “Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.”


What I'm getting at is that scripture tells us to love our neighbors...it doesn't say to only love some. It doesn't say to only forgive Christians. So why would you only believe that God doesn't love the world?

Jesus prayed at the cross: Father forgive them, for they know not what they do, but in Psalm 109 He's not too kind about Jude.
When he is judged, let him be found guilty,
And let his prayer become sin.
8 Let his days be few,
And let another take his office.
John 12:39-40 39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”

I think that's for when they go too far and sin against the Spirit. Jesus could not have carried those sins, I think, cause they are unforgivable.

But practically, in every day life, just forgive everyone, cause the apostles may have known who sinned against the Spirit, but I don't. Paul for example, when he was killing the saints, they would shy away from him, but he could be saved. He did it in ignorance.

 

[prism]

But you claim you know the Lutheran views and then bring up Free Will which is NOT Lutheran at all.

Where did I agree with’ ‘free will’?
You probably have me confused with someone else.

 

[Albion]

Plus, as a Lutheran, we believe that the will is bound to sin so maybe that's something you could look into?

Where did I agree with’ ‘free will’?

No one here said that you do.

You did however imply that Lamb, a Lutheran, agrees with free will after she had made it abundantly clear that she does not. See here: "But you claim you know the Lutheran views and then bring up Free Will which is NOT Lutheran at all."

To say all were justified at the cross (universal justification) is as foreign sounding to me as limited atonement is to you. Do you have Scripture for that one? Under that scheme ‘free will’ would reign supreme.

and yet, you claimed to know all about Confessional Lutheranism.

And then you suggested that two of us believe that the unforgiven go to heaven--which was based on nothing that's been posted here.

The root of the disconnect here, other than your way of deliberately misunderstanding what has been told to you by other posters, appears to be an inability to understand that the atonement won by Christ on the Cross does not represent a "blank check" for all of mankind to continue sinning thereafter.

But that's been explained repeatedly, so there may not be any way to continue this discussion.